430 Scuderia to 997.2 GT3 RS
Discussion
Someone asked a similar question on another thread last year and one post was it was like choosing between food or sex.
However, haven driven both and owned/own similar; If the two cars were sat in front of me and I had my last tank of fuel on my favourite road id take the Scud. The combination of 'that' gearbox, the engine and handling feel of the scud compared to the same aspects of the 7.2 GT3 RS makes the Scud the better car. When it comes down to it at my limits id rather steer than change gear and steer.
However, haven driven both and owned/own similar; If the two cars were sat in front of me and I had my last tank of fuel on my favourite road id take the Scud. The combination of 'that' gearbox, the engine and handling feel of the scud compared to the same aspects of the 7.2 GT3 RS makes the Scud the better car. When it comes down to it at my limits id rather steer than change gear and steer.
911Thrasher said:
cannot compare my experience as it's on older vehicles but my 997.1 GT3RS was so much faster and more involving around the track than my previous CStradale
....and yet I bought another Stradale recently (having thought of a 997.2 GT3RS as well): for the music, drama and not having time to track anymore, so only really for a few hundred miles a year.
This is why I chose the Strad just because I wouldn't drive it much (time issue)...otherwise it would have been the 997.2 GT3RS anytime. IMO the Ferrari only wins on the drama experience, but what a drama. For ever day life, the RS is so much more practical.
Quite agree with this though I think the Scuderia got less attention and made a very much less musical noise than the Lamborghini I have at the moment. In fact the response the Gallardo gets is much more positive than the Ferrari IME.....and yet I bought another Stradale recently (having thought of a 997.2 GT3RS as well): for the music, drama and not having time to track anymore, so only really for a few hundred miles a year.
This is why I chose the Strad just because I wouldn't drive it much (time issue)...otherwise it would have been the 997.2 GT3RS anytime. IMO the Ferrari only wins on the drama experience, but what a drama. For ever day life, the RS is so much more practical.
Edited by 911Thrasher on Friday 29th January 13:42
If its about the "show" , and there's nothing wrong with that i would add, then the Scud trumps the RS but some others do that even better
Interesting topic. I had a Scud until summer last year when I sold it. When I drove it I had a great time and it felt special. The issue was that I didn't drive it much as I always thought about where I needed to park it, how wide it was, how mileage sensitive they were etc etc. Those seem like lesser issues with a 911 of any derivative (of which I've had a few, but not currently).
I'm now actively looking at 997.1/2 gt3 cars as a more usable proposition as I'm missing pork ownership. Ideally I'd get a 997.2RS but am struggling with today's price point hence looking at the non RS '3. I know that the market is the market, but to me I don't see 170k or so of value. I can see that in a Scud with carbon and technology everywhere and a greater specialness. That being said, I don't see cars as a store of wealth but as a toy for having fun with. For me fun means that I need to be able to and comfortable in using it regularly.
I'm now actively looking at 997.1/2 gt3 cars as a more usable proposition as I'm missing pork ownership. Ideally I'd get a 997.2RS but am struggling with today's price point hence looking at the non RS '3. I know that the market is the market, but to me I don't see 170k or so of value. I can see that in a Scud with carbon and technology everywhere and a greater specialness. That being said, I don't see cars as a store of wealth but as a toy for having fun with. For me fun means that I need to be able to and comfortable in using it regularly.
Thats a very good point, a choice like this is not stats based, it's not even an easy win for the heart over the head, you have to factor, how you're going to use it, why you're wanting one in the first place.
As much as I hate to admit it as I'm a Pork fanboy, the Scud has more drama (noise mainly) and is more special as they're rarer and because of the great unwashed's love of the brand they get more positive attention.
So because of that and their inherent performance they're worth more money....percieved as better.
Worth more money..? so are you rich enough to own and treasure it but not rich enough to not give a f
k?
or are you rich enough to own one and in the back of your mind wanna make some more money?
Or the lucky real enthusiast who is rich enough to throw caution to the wind and just enjoy.
For me the 1st guy should consider alternatives sooner rather than later
The 2nd guy isn't a car enthusiast in my eyes, not really.
I don't like the 3rd guy much....lucky bd...
It's not much fun having all that charisma if you're worrying about the bills on the horizon. Can you really drive the wheels off it if you're worried about excess mileage or resale, or if it's really strong enough to take the punishment.
This has mostly been the Porsche's stronger card to play. That the engineering is backed up with decades and decades of real endurance race experience. To build a car that lets not be daft, still has a st load of character but takes your punishment and comes back for more.
To have a car like that, that you can driver as a daily and then potentially annihilate the stop watch on a track day...that's pretty special.
As much as I hate to admit it as I'm a Pork fanboy, the Scud has more drama (noise mainly) and is more special as they're rarer and because of the great unwashed's love of the brand they get more positive attention.
So because of that and their inherent performance they're worth more money....percieved as better.
Worth more money..? so are you rich enough to own and treasure it but not rich enough to not give a f
k?or are you rich enough to own one and in the back of your mind wanna make some more money?
Or the lucky real enthusiast who is rich enough to throw caution to the wind and just enjoy.
For me the 1st guy should consider alternatives sooner rather than later
The 2nd guy isn't a car enthusiast in my eyes, not really.
I don't like the 3rd guy much....lucky b
d...It's not much fun having all that charisma if you're worrying about the bills on the horizon. Can you really drive the wheels off it if you're worried about excess mileage or resale, or if it's really strong enough to take the punishment.
This has mostly been the Porsche's stronger card to play. That the engineering is backed up with decades and decades of real endurance race experience. To build a car that lets not be daft, still has a s
t load of character but takes your punishment and comes back for more.To have a car like that, that you can driver as a daily and then potentially annihilate the stop watch on a track day...that's pretty special.
911Thrasher said:
cannot compare my experience as it's on older vehicles but my 997.1 GT3RS was so much faster and more involving around the track than my previous CStradale
....and yet I bought another Stradale recently (having thought of a 997.2 GT3RS as well): for the music, drama and not having time to track anymore, so only really for a few hundred miles a year.
This is why I chose the Strad just because I wouldn't drive it much (time issue)...otherwise it would have been the 997.2 GT3RS anytime. IMO the Ferrari only wins on the drama experience, but what a drama. For ever day life, the RS is so much more practical.
Pierre, were you walking up Victoria street earlier? Pretty sure it was you. Not seen you since you had the 993T. I was coming out of Pizza express, dodgey looking git with a black eye. lol.....and yet I bought another Stradale recently (having thought of a 997.2 GT3RS as well): for the music, drama and not having time to track anymore, so only really for a few hundred miles a year.
This is why I chose the Strad just because I wouldn't drive it much (time issue)...otherwise it would have been the 997.2 GT3RS anytime. IMO the Ferrari only wins on the drama experience, but what a drama. For ever day life, the RS is so much more practical.
Edited by 911Thrasher on Friday 29th January 13:42
My 2 peneth:
Slick, having driven your scud extensively when you kindly (stupidly lol) lent it to me, and owned pork/driven your GT3 at the ring I can honestly say its a bloody tough decision!
For me, as you know, Im a Porsche man through and through so just love the GT3 RS, especially gen 1. But, its not for the manual, I think your Scud shift is incredibly involving! We've discussed this over a beer a few times but I think the gearbox in the scud has that manual-esque character, seamless shifts are boring, yours really feels like you are doing something. And the way it slams you into the seat is just epic.
But the GT3 noise, looks and most importantly robustness wins it for me hands down. Especially, as I would be, using it on track more.
Saying that, yours faired well when we went to Spa so isn't as fragile as Id imagined.
Slick, having driven your scud extensively when you kindly (stupidly lol) lent it to me, and owned pork/driven your GT3 at the ring I can honestly say its a bloody tough decision!
For me, as you know, Im a Porsche man through and through so just love the GT3 RS, especially gen 1. But, its not for the manual, I think your Scud shift is incredibly involving! We've discussed this over a beer a few times but I think the gearbox in the scud has that manual-esque character, seamless shifts are boring, yours really feels like you are doing something. And the way it slams you into the seat is just epic.
But the GT3 noise, looks and most importantly robustness wins it for me hands down. Especially, as I would be, using it on track more.
Saying that, yours faired well when we went to Spa so isn't as fragile as Id imagined.
Edited by VonSenger on Friday 29th January 16:42
Hmmmmm...
All very good points on a (very fortunate) dilemma. The Scuderia is as many say amazing, pinch myself good, the garage door goes up and I find myself trying to keep a sensible head on my shoulders when the weather demons do their best to not let me take it out. Still say sod it though and go for that drive...
The Porsche. It's weird... Having always been a Ferrari man I'd always assumed that Porsche were (and forgive me for saying this here) for posers. Ferrari with it's F1 heritage were the drivers car... Having been persuaded to give it a go by Vonsenger and subsequently driven many hard miles (Ring laps included) in my GT3, I find my view of the marques now (only just) reversed - that Porsche now feels more of the true drivers car. I know we are discussing the real special run cars, each at their best, I don't know, I just cant get that tactile more pure race car feel with the GT3 out of my head - and the manual involvement.
Not ready to pull a trigger yet and will keep watching this thread avidly (thanks again chaps)... I must say part of me is tempted to keep the Scud and buy that gen 2 997 C2S and throw a fair few special parts at it to get a step or two towards that GT3 RS experience (I know it wont get close) and then maybe have the best of both worlds...
Another alternative, could always cry to the lottery fund that I washed my 'winning' ticket by mistake!!!
All very good points on a (very fortunate) dilemma. The Scuderia is as many say amazing, pinch myself good, the garage door goes up and I find myself trying to keep a sensible head on my shoulders when the weather demons do their best to not let me take it out. Still say sod it though and go for that drive...
The Porsche. It's weird... Having always been a Ferrari man I'd always assumed that Porsche were (and forgive me for saying this here) for posers. Ferrari with it's F1 heritage were the drivers car... Having been persuaded to give it a go by Vonsenger and subsequently driven many hard miles (Ring laps included) in my GT3, I find my view of the marques now (only just) reversed - that Porsche now feels more of the true drivers car. I know we are discussing the real special run cars, each at their best, I don't know, I just cant get that tactile more pure race car feel with the GT3 out of my head - and the manual involvement.
Not ready to pull a trigger yet and will keep watching this thread avidly (thanks again chaps)... I must say part of me is tempted to keep the Scud and buy that gen 2 997 C2S and throw a fair few special parts at it to get a step or two towards that GT3 RS experience (I know it wont get close) and then maybe have the best of both worlds...
Another alternative, could always cry to the lottery fund that I washed my 'winning' ticket by mistake!!!
Slickhillsy said:
Hmmmmm...
All very good points on a (very fortunate) dilemma. The Scuderia is as many say amazing, pinch myself good, the garage door goes up and I find myself trying to keep a sensible head on my shoulders when the weather demons do their best to not let me take it out. Still say sod it though and go for that drive...
The Porsche. It's weird... Having always been a Ferrari man I'd always assumed that Porsche were (and forgive me for saying this here) for posers. Ferrari with it's F1 heritage were the drivers car... Having been persuaded to give it a go by Vonsenger and subsequently driven many hard miles (Ring laps included) in my GT3, I find my view of the marques now (only just) reversed - that Porsche now feels more of the true drivers car. I know we are discussing the real special run cars, each at their best, I don't know, I just cant get that tactile more pure race car feel with the GT3 out of my head - and the manual involvement.
Not ready to pull a trigger yet and will keep watching this thread avidly (thanks again chaps)... I must say part of me is tempted to keep the Scud and buy that gen 2 997 C2S and throw a fair few special parts at it to get a step or two towards that GT3 RS experience (I know it wont get close) and then maybe have the best of both worlds...
Another alternative, could always cry to the lottery fund that I washed my 'winning' ticket by mistake!!!
I would say that you revised opinion of the 2 marques relative merits is about right, maybe even more towards Porsche being the purer drivers car. BUT you are not comparing vanilla Porsches to the Ferraris. There's a substantial difference in the way a GT Porsche drives compared to any regular Carrera, with or without some special bits. The motor, the ride height, the range of adjustment, the noise are all wholly different on a GT3. Its more than a few changes and some after market bits can compensate for unfortunatelyAll very good points on a (very fortunate) dilemma. The Scuderia is as many say amazing, pinch myself good, the garage door goes up and I find myself trying to keep a sensible head on my shoulders when the weather demons do their best to not let me take it out. Still say sod it though and go for that drive...
The Porsche. It's weird... Having always been a Ferrari man I'd always assumed that Porsche were (and forgive me for saying this here) for posers. Ferrari with it's F1 heritage were the drivers car... Having been persuaded to give it a go by Vonsenger and subsequently driven many hard miles (Ring laps included) in my GT3, I find my view of the marques now (only just) reversed - that Porsche now feels more of the true drivers car. I know we are discussing the real special run cars, each at their best, I don't know, I just cant get that tactile more pure race car feel with the GT3 out of my head - and the manual involvement.
Not ready to pull a trigger yet and will keep watching this thread avidly (thanks again chaps)... I must say part of me is tempted to keep the Scud and buy that gen 2 997 C2S and throw a fair few special parts at it to get a step or two towards that GT3 RS experience (I know it wont get close) and then maybe have the best of both worlds...
Another alternative, could always cry to the lottery fund that I washed my 'winning' ticket by mistake!!!
Dblue said:
There's a substantial difference in the way a GT Porsche drives compared to any regular Carrera, with or without some special bits. The motor, the ride height, the range of adjustment, the noise are all wholly different on a GT3. Its more than a few changes and some after market bits can compensate for unfortunately
Would you say night and day different (as in don't bother as I'll just not find what I'm looking for no matter how significant the tweaks)?Slickhillsy said:
Having always been a Ferrari man I'd always assumed that Porsche were (and forgive me for saying this here) for posers. Ferrari with it's F1 heritage were the drivers car...
No I don't forgive you.Ferrari on the whole have F1 as their heritage, predominantly, it's their thing.
Millia Miglia is in there and back in the day, LeMans.
Porsche have had a dabble in F1 too...nowhere near to the same extent
Millia Miglia too, but have more LeMans history and more current at a higher level
Paris Dakar
A works rally team
Indycar
They are at least Ferrari's equal..I'd argue their heritage is greater.
That Porsche's could conceivably be seen as poser's cars... hmmm...I'd put that down to the model ranges being in the mroe common man's price range.
ergo Ferrari is a display of wealth with heritage
Porsche is a display of engineering excllence and heritage..
or something
Slickhillsy said:
Dblue said:
There's a substantial difference in the way a GT Porsche drives compared to any regular Carrera, with or without some special bits. The motor, the ride height, the range of adjustment, the noise are all wholly different on a GT3. Its more than a few changes and some after market bits can compensate for unfortunately
Would you say night and day different (as in don't bother as I'll just not find what I'm looking for no matter how significant the tweaks)?IMO the 7.2RS is definitely the better car to drive despite liking the scud a lot and to be fair, the Ferrari also ticks a lot of other non driving related boxes compared to the RS.
OP, It is a tough one! I am lucky enough to have both and often wrestle with which one I would keep if I had to dispose of one. As at today, I would say the RS is the true keeper because I love how tactile it is and the sheer feeling that the thing is a race car for the road what with the skill required to drive it quickly and well, plus all the sounds, sensations and obvious race bits like the cage, harnesses and rear spoiler. Sounds good too and when you wring its neck it makes me smile and laugh out loud.
The Scud is the first Ferrari I have owned and the reelisatio. Of a boyhood dream. It is an event to drive and the sound and sense of occasion is epic. I thought it was fragile until I took it to the Ring for two full days with DN last year. It took everything I threw at it on track and on the trip there and back and felt solid and strong throughout, so my view on the fragility has changed. It's performance is very impressive and it's nicely quicker than the RS on the long straight and faster sections at the Ring. Will I ever sell it? Answer is probably but I wills really miss it and always want another.
I like the suggestion earlier of stretching to both with the view to trying both for a short time and then selling one after a year when you have made your own mind up. Willl be an unforgettable year !,!!
The Scud is the first Ferrari I have owned and the reelisatio. Of a boyhood dream. It is an event to drive and the sound and sense of occasion is epic. I thought it was fragile until I took it to the Ring for two full days with DN last year. It took everything I threw at it on track and on the trip there and back and felt solid and strong throughout, so my view on the fragility has changed. It's performance is very impressive and it's nicely quicker than the RS on the long straight and faster sections at the Ring. Will I ever sell it? Answer is probably but I wills really miss it and always want another.
I like the suggestion earlier of stretching to both with the view to trying both for a short time and then selling one after a year when you have made your own mind up. Willl be an unforgettable year !,!!
Batster said:
I like the suggestion earlier of stretching to both with the view to trying both for a short time and then selling one after a year when you have made your own mind up. Willl be an unforgettable year !,!!
I like this idea. Hillsy, do it! I won't tell the long haired general. Anyhow you deserve it after showing restraint and cancelling your r1m order!
OP, It is a tough one! I am lucky enough to have both and often wrestle with which one I would keep if I had to dispose of one. As at today, I would say the RS is the true keeper because I love how tactile it is and the sheer feeling that the thing is a race car for the road what with the skill required to drive it quickly and well, plus all the sounds, sensations and obvious race bits like the cage, harnesses and rear spoiler. Sounds good too and when you wring its neck it makes me smile and laugh out loud.
The Scud is the first Ferrari I have owned and the reelisatio. Of a boyhood dream. It is an event to drive and the sound and sense of occasion is epic. I thought it was fragile until I took it to the Ring for two full days with DN last year. It took everything I threw at it on track and on the trip there and back and felt solid and strong throughout, so my view on the fragility has changed. It's performance is very impressive and it's nicely quicker than the RS on the long straight and faster sections at the Ring. Will I ever sell it? Answer is probably but I wills really miss it and always want another.
I like the suggestion earlier of stretching to both with the view to trying both for a short time and then selling one after a year when you have made your own mind up. Willl be an unforgettable year !,!!
The Scud is the first Ferrari I have owned and the reelisatio. Of a boyhood dream. It is an event to drive and the sound and sense of occasion is epic. I thought it was fragile until I took it to the Ring for two full days with DN last year. It took everything I threw at it on track and on the trip there and back and felt solid and strong throughout, so my view on the fragility has changed. It's performance is very impressive and it's nicely quicker than the RS on the long straight and faster sections at the Ring. Will I ever sell it? Answer is probably but I wills really miss it and always want another.
I like the suggestion earlier of stretching to both with the view to trying both for a short time and then selling one after a year when you have made your own mind up. Willl be an unforgettable year !,!!
Ferraris make me cringe, so i am naturally biased towards the the GT3. However, for me, if you introduce car with paddleshift then how is the 430 any better than a 458? If you're going down the modern route, then the latest is greatest.
I've no idea how much 430 Scud is, because i'd never be interested, but if a GT3 RS is twice the cost, i'd still take one. With respect, who talks about them? Respected journos still regularly bring up the 997 as a benchmark.
I've no idea how much 430 Scud is, because i'd never be interested, but if a GT3 RS is twice the cost, i'd still take one. With respect, who talks about them? Respected journos still regularly bring up the 997 as a benchmark.
hondansx said:
However, for me, if you introduce car with paddleshift then how is the 430 any better than a 458? If you're going down the modern route, then the latest is greatest.
Night and day difference between the Scuds SF2 F1 and the DCT in the 458! SF2 is so much more involving.Slickhillsy said:
Hmmmmm...
All very good points on a (very fortunate) dilemma. The Scuderia is as many say amazing, pinch myself good, the garage door goes up and I find myself trying to keep a sensible head on my shoulders when the weather demons do their best to not let me take it out. Still say sod it though and go for that drive...
The Porsche. It's weird... Having always been a Ferrari man I'd always assumed that Porsche were (and forgive me for saying this here) for posers. Ferrari with it's F1 heritage were the drivers car... Having been persuaded to give it a go by Vonsenger and subsequently driven many hard miles (Ring laps included) in my GT3, I find my view of the marques now (only just) reversed - that Porsche now feels more of the true drivers car. I know we are discussing the real special run cars, each at their best, I don't know, I just cant get that tactile more pure race car feel with the GT3 out of my head - and the manual involvement.
Not ready to pull a trigger yet and will keep watching this thread avidly (thanks again chaps)... I must say part of me is tempted to keep the Scud and buy that gen 2 997 C2S and throw a fair few special parts at it to get a step or two towards that GT3 RS experience (I know it wont get close) and then maybe have the best of both worlds...
Another alternative, could always cry to the lottery fund that I washed my 'winning' ticket by mistake!!!
the lack of manual shift is my main worry about a scud - fora weekend car I think at some point I would want a manual for the more engaging drive.having said that I much preferthe ferrari engines even to the mezger, somehow just feel more special (even if the mezger is the race-bred engine). Currently no cash,butwas thinking maybe the right approach is to build my perfect 355 (weight loss, better suspension etc) - say you can get it down to less than 1300kg, it should feel fast enough (possibly comparable to a 997 gt3) - tcould lead to have a pretty looking, amazing sounding ferrarithat also performs well on track. All very good points on a (very fortunate) dilemma. The Scuderia is as many say amazing, pinch myself good, the garage door goes up and I find myself trying to keep a sensible head on my shoulders when the weather demons do their best to not let me take it out. Still say sod it though and go for that drive...
The Porsche. It's weird... Having always been a Ferrari man I'd always assumed that Porsche were (and forgive me for saying this here) for posers. Ferrari with it's F1 heritage were the drivers car... Having been persuaded to give it a go by Vonsenger and subsequently driven many hard miles (Ring laps included) in my GT3, I find my view of the marques now (only just) reversed - that Porsche now feels more of the true drivers car. I know we are discussing the real special run cars, each at their best, I don't know, I just cant get that tactile more pure race car feel with the GT3 out of my head - and the manual involvement.
Not ready to pull a trigger yet and will keep watching this thread avidly (thanks again chaps)... I must say part of me is tempted to keep the Scud and buy that gen 2 997 C2S and throw a fair few special parts at it to get a step or two towards that GT3 RS experience (I know it wont get close) and then maybe have the best of both worlds...
Another alternative, could always cry to the lottery fund that I washed my 'winning' ticket by mistake!!!
Edit: also get a cage as not sure how save these old cars are in a crash / roof support / a pillar not particularly confidence inspiring in the 355
Edited by MDL111 on Sunday 7th February 09:57
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