Staying within the law - vehicle history
Discussion
Im not sure this is the best place to post this but I will try first. I wont name the restorer but I have come across a very reputable place with some high profile clients that when they sell a restored or modernised vehicle (as long as it doesn't have value adding history) zero the mileage and present the car as a new car. This includes a new pack of handbooks and service records (all reproductions of the originals) and treat the car as a new car so do a PDI and stamp the book etc. In essence then you are buying in documentation terms a new car.
My question is what legal responsibility do you have at that point to record things like mileage on the engine when the mileage was zero'd?
Are there any other legal issues that you would need to be mindful of?
My question is what legal responsibility do you have at that point to record things like mileage on the engine when the mileage was zero'd?
Are there any other legal issues that you would need to be mindful of?
I'd personally want the changes documented - I'd rather have a long history on a car, warts and all. If it's had work done in the past, but been rectified, I'd rather see it listed than deleted.
I don't think there's anything illegal about zeroing the mileage unless it's being done to pass it off as lower than reality - even the mileage box on the V5 change of keeper sectional is optional, and the MOT history site will show previous details if the registration stays the same.
I don't think there's anything illegal about zeroing the mileage unless it's being done to pass it off as lower than reality - even the mileage box on the V5 change of keeper sectional is optional, and the MOT history site will show previous details if the registration stays the same.
What does an odometer reading tell you about any older car anyway?
As an example I have a tale to tell:
I had a long debate with a potential buyer of my Ogle Mini in 1979 - he asked what mileage it (based on a 1962 Mini) had done and couldn't understand that not only did I not know, but that it was not relevant. I explained that the milage reading was the distance since the speedo was rebuilt; the tyres had done XXXX miles; it was on a 1098cc engine, not the original Mini's 848; it had Cooper 'S' gearbox and brakes, etc. and he still asked what mileage it had done.
As an example I have a tale to tell:
I had a long debate with a potential buyer of my Ogle Mini in 1979 - he asked what mileage it (based on a 1962 Mini) had done and couldn't understand that not only did I not know, but that it was not relevant. I explained that the milage reading was the distance since the speedo was rebuilt; the tyres had done XXXX miles; it was on a 1098cc engine, not the original Mini's 848; it had Cooper 'S' gearbox and brakes, etc. and he still asked what mileage it had done.
Of course there will always be a VERY few cars which have immaculate provenance, every maintenance event recorded for the last 40 years, one or two owner history. But they are tiny in number.
When you're dealing with an era of stuff with probably more than a dozen owners, non tamper proof speedos with five digits, that's been substantially rebuilt, with major mechanical components rebuilt from components taken from other examples or factory new (engines, gearboxes, back axles, interior components etc), I think zeroing it all upon a total mechanical, body and interior restoration is a better and more ethical approach than trying to claim that "the car" has a certain mileage on it, when in reality the restorer has absolutely no means of proving that, and in any case which part of the car are you talking about? I wouldn't want to put any credibility on a mileage number for any such car, if I were selling it, and zeroing it is the best way to ensure that no buyer can claim that a specific historical mileage is part of the basis for him judging and valuing the car.
If I were buying a newly restored 1965 Corvette for example, the fact that someone like Mike Huddart has built the engine to spec X and producing dyno sheet Y and driveability characteristics Z is of great importance. The mileage on whatever block he used before he started work on it is completely irrelevant to me.
When you're dealing with an era of stuff with probably more than a dozen owners, non tamper proof speedos with five digits, that's been substantially rebuilt, with major mechanical components rebuilt from components taken from other examples or factory new (engines, gearboxes, back axles, interior components etc), I think zeroing it all upon a total mechanical, body and interior restoration is a better and more ethical approach than trying to claim that "the car" has a certain mileage on it, when in reality the restorer has absolutely no means of proving that, and in any case which part of the car are you talking about? I wouldn't want to put any credibility on a mileage number for any such car, if I were selling it, and zeroing it is the best way to ensure that no buyer can claim that a specific historical mileage is part of the basis for him judging and valuing the car.
If I were buying a newly restored 1965 Corvette for example, the fact that someone like Mike Huddart has built the engine to spec X and producing dyno sheet Y and driveability characteristics Z is of great importance. The mileage on whatever block he used before he started work on it is completely irrelevant to me.
Edited by Lowtimer on Thursday 11th February 11:49
I'm not having my car sorted by the company but many do (and it's hugely expensive) was just wondering if there were any grey areas. I quite like the idea of when I complete my overhaul the car in a way "starting afresh" as it doesn't have any significant history and as someone above says it's not matching numbers so it's engine is newer than the body etc.
Was just wondering if that would put people off but it sounds like it doesn't and whether there was any legal requirement to say note the mileage at engine change / speedo replacement etc. Seems not I guess with such an old car none of that is relevant.
Was just wondering if that would put people off but it sounds like it doesn't and whether there was any legal requirement to say note the mileage at engine change / speedo replacement etc. Seems not I guess with such an old car none of that is relevant.
Allan L said:
What does an odometer reading tell you about any older car anyway?
Indeed.There is no legal requirement for the odometer to say anything about anything. What you CAN'T do is change the reading then sell the car as having covered a lower mileage for more money. That's fraud. Not because of the odometer reading per se, but because of the lying to get more money.
That's not what these restorers are doing. They're selling a freshly restored car as freshly restored, and this is the mileage since restoration.
TooMany2cvs said:
Indeed.
There is no legal requirement for the odometer to say anything about anything. What you CAN'T do is change the reading then sell the car as having covered a lower mileage for more money. That's fraud. Not because of the odometer reading per se, but because of the lying to get more money.
That's not what these restorers are doing. They're selling a freshly restored car as freshly restored, and this is the mileage since restoration.
Excellent point There is no legal requirement for the odometer to say anything about anything. What you CAN'T do is change the reading then sell the car as having covered a lower mileage for more money. That's fraud. Not because of the odometer reading per se, but because of the lying to get more money.
That's not what these restorers are doing. They're selling a freshly restored car as freshly restored, and this is the mileage since restoration.
No different to my fastback resto - I bought all-new dials and so the mileage read 0. The engine was 95% new parts, the block itself had done ? miles. Most of the body was original and had covered ? miles.
Older cars are all on condition, not mileage. If they;re doing a full resto then it makes sense I suppose to start the speedo at 0 miles. But for a part resto keeping the same dials etc - leave as is.
Older cars are all on condition, not mileage. If they;re doing a full resto then it makes sense I suppose to start the speedo at 0 miles. But for a part resto keeping the same dials etc - leave as is.
craigjm said:
so I might well ... buy one of this guys "handbook packs" which includes the new service book. Will be a good record of my ownership and now k know it's obviously not frowned upon
Does this "handbook pack" offer anything over and above a 99p notebook or a simple spreadsheet?TooMany2cvs said:
Does this "handbook pack" offer anything over and above a 99p notebook or a simple spreadsheet?
It's reprinted versions of all of the manuals and handbooks that would have come with the car when new including the folder to keep them all in as if you had just bought the car new from a dealer Or go on eBay and get old ones - that's what I do when I buy an old car that has lost its books. You can even find wallets for them on eBay. I would never use these to make false reps about the car, but I like a car to have appropriate books and, if I can find them, appropriate tools.
Breadvan72 said:
Or go on eBay and get old ones - that's what I do when I buy an old car that has lost its books. You can even find wallets for them on eBay. I would never use these to make false reps about the car, but I like a car to have appropriate books and, if I can find them, appropriate tools.
I do that too. The interest for me here is primarily the new blank service book. Not to zero, but I reset the milometer on the vintage car when I rebuilt the whole car. So I started with 25000 miles, but to suggest the the previous reading was anything like accurate is a joke. The whole speedo wasn't working when the previous owner bought it in the early 60's and I got it working in 2004.
History is every thing with a car ,classic car even more so.Buying a car with zero miles on the clock after its been restored is just mad who ever has restored it.But saying that ive just got a fordson van re regestered as it was not on the dvla computer and im the first owner which i no im not,so ive got no history with it but it has got 31,000 mile on the clock.
Ok. So if you have no history, you have no idea how many miles the van has done, it could be 31,000, 131,000, 231,000 or 76,227 for all that. You presumably don't know whether any or all of the major mechanical components are original, or replacement, or off a donor vehicle, indeed you dont even know if that's the original speedo.
And all of that's fine because if you bought a car with no history then indisputably you bought it on the basis of condition rather than mileage.
You say it's mad to buy a car with zeroed mileage, but why it is any madder than buying a car with some different completely arbitrary numbers on it? If the whole thing is properly restored as a unit why does a zero mileage make less sense than a random-guess mileage that no-one can possibly stand behind?
And all of that's fine because if you bought a car with no history then indisputably you bought it on the basis of condition rather than mileage.
You say it's mad to buy a car with zeroed mileage, but why it is any madder than buying a car with some different completely arbitrary numbers on it? If the whole thing is properly restored as a unit why does a zero mileage make less sense than a random-guess mileage that no-one can possibly stand behind?
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff