"Manchester" Singer spotted in the wild
Discussion
jcosh said:
As much as I have admired these for many years I do think the spots it into context. £500K for a reengineered 964 is a fair amount of cash. I recon I could commission something similar for circa £150k and still have enough change for GT3 and a Turbo s?
Yes sir . From a British or German company that have more experience and have forgotten more about Porsche than singer will ever know . Companies with race heritage , experience and deep not surface engineering . Names like tuthill , Bainbridge, autofarm , Rügen , roock etc etc the list is long and sorry for not naming them all Singer is the emperors new clothes made Machine
Edited by wtdoom on Wednesday 24th February 21:44
It looks like this car also features on the Singer's intpro web page. Just browse through the images
http://singervehicledesign.com/
http://singervehicledesign.com/
wtdoom said:
Cmoose, pop into tuthills , with your 150 and you will get a better car , with a better chassis and drive than any singer for £550 to 650.
Sorry B, I know Tuthill's work, as do I Neils, both are good, but they ain't a patch on Mr Dickinsons. As for those commenting on the price of the Singer, you're not paying JUST for the build and the hardware used within it. Anyone involved in composites production will know that the moulds used to produce items such as the rear quarters etc aren't cheap. Sure, you can get a bloke in a shed to knock up some moulds from glassfibre and 4 X 2, but you'll never get the consistency, quality of fit and finish the likes of Aria will produce from their CNC'nd resin moulds.
Very few (Neil and Colin included) have successfully produced reliable, big numbers from the 964 engine, Ed Pink has.
Rob Dickinson has clearly found some talented guys to develop the car, items such as the sound deadening and suspension have been developed by some of the best in their respective fields.
But I do tend to agree, there's nothing in the Singer that couldn't be done in the UK just as well if not better than Califoria. The likes of Crosby Composites could produce panels the equal of Aria, we have a couple of Ohlins agents in the UK who could develop the TTX's, I know a couple of trimmers that could produce interiors to the same level as those in the Singer.
Mil spec looms could be built by a handful of companies or individuals in the UK's Motorsport Valley. Likewise exhausts.
What's been lacking is an individual in the UK willing to put the money up to produce the tooling to manufacture all the bespoke parts, but also someone willing to co ordinate such an effort with no guarantee of repeat orders.
Singers birth was protracted and often painful, with plenty of hiccups along the way if Rob is to be believed.
Most would shy away from such a project unless they had the vision (and just as/more importantly the funds/backing) to stay in it for the long run as Rob did.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes the chassis is of a Tuthill car on another planet . The fripperies and trimming , there are ex bentley and RR trimmers that are now freelance would create you an interior that would would make you cry from beauty . I assure you , it wouldn't cost you no £600k (like you I wouldn't replicate much of it). The arches would match and the car would be glorious . I have created 5 bespoke 911's and they are/were completely bespoke and wouldn't swap any of them for a singer but I agree its not all marketing and margin , just that theres a hell of a lot marketing and margin 
Slippydiff said:
Sorry B, I know Tuthill's work, as do I Neils, both are good, but they ain't a patch on Mr Dickinsons.
As for those commenting on the price of the Singer, you're not paying JUST for the build and the hardware used within it. Anyone involved in composites production will know that the moulds used to produce items such as the rear quarters etc aren't cheap. Sure, you can get a bloke in a shed to knock up some moulds from glassfibre and 4 X 2, but you'll never get the consistency, quality of fit and finish the likes of Aria will produce from their CNC'nd resin moulds.
Very few (Neil and Colin included) have successfully produced reliable, big numbers from the 964 engine, Ed Pink has.
Rob Dickinson has clearly found some talented guys to develop the car, items such as the sound deadening and suspension have been developed by some of the best in their respective fields.
But I do tend to agree, there's nothing in the Singer that couldn't be done in the UK just as well if not better than Califoria. The likes of Crosby Composites could produce panels the equal of Aria, we have a couple of Ohlins agents in the UK who could develop the TTX's, I know a couple of trimmers that could produce interiors to the same level as those in the Singer.
Mil spec looms could be built by a handful of companies or individuals in the UK's Motorsport Valley. Likewise exhausts.
What's been lacking is an individual in the UK willing to put the money up to produce the tooling to manufacture all the bespoke parts, but also someone willing to co ordinate such an effort with no guarantee of repeat orders.
Singers birth was protracted and often painful, with plenty of hiccups along the way if Rob is to be believed.
Most would shy away from such a project unless they had the vision (and just as/more importantly the funds/backing) to stay in it for the long run as Rob did.
Sorry slippy I simply cannot agree .As for those commenting on the price of the Singer, you're not paying JUST for the build and the hardware used within it. Anyone involved in composites production will know that the moulds used to produce items such as the rear quarters etc aren't cheap. Sure, you can get a bloke in a shed to knock up some moulds from glassfibre and 4 X 2, but you'll never get the consistency, quality of fit and finish the likes of Aria will produce from their CNC'nd resin moulds.
Very few (Neil and Colin included) have successfully produced reliable, big numbers from the 964 engine, Ed Pink has.
Rob Dickinson has clearly found some talented guys to develop the car, items such as the sound deadening and suspension have been developed by some of the best in their respective fields.
But I do tend to agree, there's nothing in the Singer that couldn't be done in the UK just as well if not better than Califoria. The likes of Crosby Composites could produce panels the equal of Aria, we have a couple of Ohlins agents in the UK who could develop the TTX's, I know a couple of trimmers that could produce interiors to the same level as those in the Singer.
Mil spec looms could be built by a handful of companies or individuals in the UK's Motorsport Valley. Likewise exhausts.
What's been lacking is an individual in the UK willing to put the money up to produce the tooling to manufacture all the bespoke parts, but also someone willing to co ordinate such an effort with no guarantee of repeat orders.
Singers birth was protracted and often painful, with plenty of hiccups along the way if Rob is to be believed.
Most would shy away from such a project unless they had the vision (and just as/more importantly the funds/backing) to stay in it for the long run as Rob did.
Ill give you the sound insulation thing because its of no interest to me , the sake of argument and my respect for your opinion .
For chassis , stiffness , design and how it works with the appropriate EXE tc dampers and diff Singer simply cannot compete . Tuthill for example have literally decades of experience with chassis and suspension . What diff , what ratio , what damper and the combination there off etc is mind boggling . They Have victories in every class of Historic porsche racing , as with Neil . That is what I meant by deep not surface engineering . You just can't beat that experience in my opinion and in my experience .Just the chassis work is amazing .
My 993 rsr built buy colin Belton out dragged a 997 gt2 at silverstone with my parter in the silverstone 24 hrs driving the 997. Only at the end of the hangar straight had it clawed back a car length . My tuthill ST bought the magazine reviewer literally to tears , i hit speed bumps at 50 mph and it just cruised it . It handles like no 1971 car ever ought to . God damn non of those cars were cheap (you know I'm not adverse to spending a few quid on a 911) but I can tell you now , the most expensive one ( a replica of my own 73 RSR, some series let you race a clone if you have the real thing ) was a third of the cost of a singer .
Look at multi million pound historic Porsche RSR's . Who does the best and most accurate restoration work ? British companies , german companies .
You have wonderful engineers in your excellent country , absolutely the best bodywork companies ( sportwagen anyone?) , combined they have literally hundreds if not thousands of years of experience . Have an engine for a 3 million pound 73 RSR ? You don't go to an american offshoot of Cosworth , you go to Neil or you go to Rügen . There is a reason for this .
Finally for my latest project ( the lightest 911 I've ever built ) I considered a singer . I compared the car panel by panel and spec for spec to what I have had built for myself and what I know can be built .
Did I buy the singer ? Hell no .
I am using the usual suspects . Please come drive her when she's finished . Compare directly to a singer . On this, my dear friend of so many agreements over the years we will have to agree to disagree .
I wouldn't swap Richard Tuthill , Neil Bainbridge , Aldo Riti , Colin Belton and Manfred Rügen for a million emperors new clothes companies like singer . If you want a bauble to look at perhaps theres a case if you want a bauble to DRIVE then Victory is born on the battlefield and those above build ultimate warriors
Edited by wtdoom on Thursday 25th February 16:21
I was very interested in Singer once and had a couple of discussions with the team. The big issue was, that the car does not have type approval in the EU which effectively makes this car unusable in a large part of the world. In the UK one could get Single Vehicle Approval, but the UK is much more lenient towards these "one off" cars. Rob told me that they are working towards getting EU type approval but I dont know whether they have achieved it yet.
hornbaek said:
I was very interested in Singer once and had a couple of discussions with the team. The big issue was, that the car does not have type approval in the EU which effectively makes this car unusable in a large part of the world. In the UK one could get Single Vehicle Approval, but the UK is much more lenient towards these "one off" cars. Rob told me that they are working towards getting EU type approval but I don't know whether they have achieved it yet.
I told one of them to approach it as a restoration , it would save a fortune on vat and import . send your own 964 out there and they send it back "restored " as a singer . wtdoom said:
Sorry slippy I simply cannot agree .
Ill give you the sound insulation thing because its of no interest to me , the sake of argument and my respect for your opinion .
For chassis , stiffness , design and how it works with the appropriate EXE tc dampers and diff Singer simply cannot compete . Tuthill for example have literally decades of experience with chassis and suspension . What diff , what ratio , what damper and the combination there off etc is mind boggling . They Have victories in every class of Historic porsche racing , as with Neil . That is what I meant by deep not surface engineering . You just can't beat that experience in my opinion and in my experience .Just the chassis work is amazing .
My 993 rsr built buy colin Belton out dragged a 997 gt2 at silverstone with my parter in the silverstone 24 hrs driving the 997. Only at the end of the hangar straight had it clawed back a car length . My tuthill ST bought the magazine reviewer literally to tears , i hit speed bumps at 50 mph and it just cruised it . It handles like no 1971 car ever ought to . God damn non of those cars were cheap (you know I'm not adverse to spending a few quid on a 911) but I can tell you now , the most expensive one ( a replica of my own 73 RSR, some series let you race a clone if you have the real thing ) was a third of the cost of a singer .
Look at multi million pound historic Porsche RSR's . Who does the best and most accurate restoration work ? British companies , german companies .
You have wonderful engineers in your excellent country , absolutely the best bodywork companies ( sportwagen anyone?) , combined they have literally hundreds if not thousands of years of experience . Have an engine for a 3 million pound 73 RSR ? You don't go to an american offshoot of Cosworth , you go to Neil or you go to Rügen . There is a reason for this .
Finally for my latest project ( the lightest 911 I've ever built ) I considered a singer . I compared the car panel by panel and spec for spec to what I have had built for myself and what I know can be built .
Did I buy the singer ? Hell no .
I am using the usual suspects . Please come drive her when she's finished . Compare directly to a singer . On this, my dear friend of so many agreements over the years we will have to agree to disagree .
I wouldn't swap Richard Tuthill , Neil Bainbridge , Aldo Riti , Colin Belton and Manfred Rügen for a million emperors new clothes companies like singer . If you want a bauble to look at perhaps theres a case if you want a bauble to DRIVE then Victory is born on the battlefield and those above build ultimate warriors
Not sure if your argument is that the singer IS inferior, or that their experience in developing 911s leads you to believe that it must be?Ill give you the sound insulation thing because its of no interest to me , the sake of argument and my respect for your opinion .
For chassis , stiffness , design and how it works with the appropriate EXE tc dampers and diff Singer simply cannot compete . Tuthill for example have literally decades of experience with chassis and suspension . What diff , what ratio , what damper and the combination there off etc is mind boggling . They Have victories in every class of Historic porsche racing , as with Neil . That is what I meant by deep not surface engineering . You just can't beat that experience in my opinion and in my experience .Just the chassis work is amazing .
My 993 rsr built buy colin Belton out dragged a 997 gt2 at silverstone with my parter in the silverstone 24 hrs driving the 997. Only at the end of the hangar straight had it clawed back a car length . My tuthill ST bought the magazine reviewer literally to tears , i hit speed bumps at 50 mph and it just cruised it . It handles like no 1971 car ever ought to . God damn non of those cars were cheap (you know I'm not adverse to spending a few quid on a 911) but I can tell you now , the most expensive one ( a replica of my own 73 RSR, some series let you race a clone if you have the real thing ) was a third of the cost of a singer .
Look at multi million pound historic Porsche RSR's . Who does the best and most accurate restoration work ? British companies , german companies .
You have wonderful engineers in your excellent country , absolutely the best bodywork companies ( sportwagen anyone?) , combined they have literally hundreds if not thousands of years of experience . Have an engine for a 3 million pound 73 RSR ? You don't go to an american offshoot of Cosworth , you go to Neil or you go to Rügen . There is a reason for this .
Finally for my latest project ( the lightest 911 I've ever built ) I considered a singer . I compared the car panel by panel and spec for spec to what I have had built for myself and what I know can be built .
Did I buy the singer ? Hell no .
I am using the usual suspects . Please come drive her when she's finished . Compare directly to a singer . On this, my dear friend of so many agreements over the years we will have to agree to disagree .
I wouldn't swap Richard Tuthill , Neil Bainbridge , Aldo Riti , Colin Belton and Manfred Rügen for a million emperors new clothes companies like singer . If you want a bauble to look at perhaps theres a case if you want a bauble to DRIVE then Victory is born on the battlefield and those above build ultimate warriors
Edited by wtdoom on Thursday 25th February 16:21
Saying that someone who's been doing something for 30 years must be better than someone who has been doing it for 10 is a dangerous fallacy to propagate.
I'm not arguing one way or the other, by the way ... I'm just curious as to what you're saying.
wtdoom said:
I told one of them to approach it as a restoration , it would save a fortune on vat and import . send your own 964 out there and they send it back "restored " as a singer .
I thought this is the way it worked anyway...you buy a car here and ship it there for 'restoration'..... otherwise wouldn't they have to register as a manufacturer if you wanted to import a Singer to the UK?anonymous said:
[redacted]
ThisYou could probably quite easily get someone to build you a better driving car than a Singer for less money.
Subjectively, you could get a better looking 911 than a Singer for less money.
However, Singers are about the detail and the quality. Individually, you may be able to source better and to your taste but that requires a project and requires sourcing of craftsmen, etc.
Singer create something that's completely individual to you, incorporating all of your favourite 911 details from so much choice. I'd have one in a heartbeat.
£500k? There's a lot of stuff further up my own list for that kind of money, but if Porsches are really your thing and/or £500k is not a large amount of money to you then it IS worth it.
v8ksn said:
I thought this is the way it worked anyway...you buy a car here and ship it there for 'restoration'..... otherwise wouldn't they have to register as a manufacturer if you wanted to import a Singer to the UK?
beats me matey , I may well be wrong . From Andrews thread when he tried to buy one he had to pay vat , that [the above] seemed a way out but I'm no vat expert so happy to be corrected 
Edited by wtdoom on Thursday 25th February 17:28
utgjon said:
Not sure if your argument is that the singer IS inferior, or that their experience in developing 911s leads you to believe that it must be?
Saying that someone who's been doing something for 30 years must be better than someone who has been doing it for 10 is a dangerous fallacy to propagate.
I'm not arguing one way or the other, by the way ... I'm just curious as to what you're saying.
I'm sorry I'm not being clear and I too am not arguing , I'm giving a different opinion . As a Porsche connoisseur I don't like singers aesthetically or mechanically . I maintain you can built a better looking and better driving vehicle for much less money to boot . It's a simple point , I'm not blown away and have a lot of cars to compare them too and a 600k car a singer is not , to me at least .Saying that someone who's been doing something for 30 years must be better than someone who has been doing it for 10 is a dangerous fallacy to propagate.
I'm not arguing one way or the other, by the way ... I'm just curious as to what you're saying.
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