A question of technique?
Discussion
Ok, so I'm just wondering,what is the quickest way off the line? Without mods, better tyres etc. I know that you need to avoid wheel spin but do you: A, Hold the clutch on it's bite point at about 2000 rpm, then get the car moving and feed the power in and then foot hard do wn and change up just before rev limit. B: Build the revs to about 4000 and let clutch out quick and then go? C: Some other way?
Don't worry I'm not about to go out and try to race everything off the lights but if a cocky little s**t in some hot hatch wants to wind me up the wrong way I will show him a 16 year old sports car can still cut it! Even in my bulk standard 400! The other reason is just interest.
Don't worry I'm not about to go out and try to race everything off the lights but if a cocky little s**t in some hot hatch wants to wind me up the wrong way I will show him a 16 year old sports car can still cut it! Even in my bulk standard 400! The other reason is just interest.
An Autocar road tester once told me they fully depress the clutch, build engine revs to a level that creates a little but not too much wheelspin at take off (so you need to repeat to find that point for the car and surface) and then move their foot sideways off the clutch! Not something I'd want to do to any car of mine, but evidently effective!
After that you change up as fast as possible around peak torque rpm, with or without the clutch!
After that you change up as fast as possible around peak torque rpm, with or without the clutch!
As said, find the bite point, don't accelerate too much until you have traction, then floor it. It all happens very quickly.
And average example.
http://youtu.be/rOu_zZfSU8g
And a little play.
http://youtu.be/xUWNKEgrwPk
And average example.
http://youtu.be/rOu_zZfSU8g
And a little play.
http://youtu.be/xUWNKEgrwPk
[quote=phazed] As said, find the bite point, don't accelerate too much until you have traction, then floor it. It all happens very quickly.
Decent tyres are first, then technique.
Harewood Start Line
Blue Chimaera 13 year old tyres, 2500rpm, off clutch, car lurches to 45 degrees to track and wheelspin all the way to Clarks in second.
Yellow Chimaera 4 year old Falkens on the rear, similar technique, straight line, wheelspin all the way to Clarks in second.
Yellow Chimaera, new T1R tyres, similar technique, maybe only 2200rpm, car moves forward almost no wheelspin, then floor it, then second to Clarks no wheelspin and a second less to the first timing mark.
Decent tyres are first, then technique.
Harewood Start Line
Blue Chimaera 13 year old tyres, 2500rpm, off clutch, car lurches to 45 degrees to track and wheelspin all the way to Clarks in second.
Yellow Chimaera 4 year old Falkens on the rear, similar technique, straight line, wheelspin all the way to Clarks in second.
Yellow Chimaera, new T1R tyres, similar technique, maybe only 2200rpm, car moves forward almost no wheelspin, then floor it, then second to Clarks no wheelspin and a second less to the first timing mark.
And change up at 5200/5500 rpm, not 6000. Max torque is around 3750 rpm, but max BHP is around 5250 - 5500 rpm So when you drop the clutch back in you want to be at say 4000 rpm in the higher gear.
Torque and BHP graph - apologies if it's sideways. BHP is the curve that peaks just after they cross.
Torque and BHP graph - apologies if it's sideways. BHP is the curve that peaks just after they cross.
Skyedriver]hazed said:
As said, find the bite point, don't accelerate too much until you have traction, then floor it. It all happens very quickly.
Decent tyres are first, then technique.
Harewood Start Line
Blue Chimaera 13 year old tyres, 2500rpm, off clutch, car lurches to 45 degrees to track and wheelspin all the way to Clarks in second.
Yellow Chimaera 4 year old Falkens on the rear, similar technique, straight line, wheelspin all the way to Clarks in second.
Yellow Chimaera, new T1R tyres, similar technique, maybe only 2200rpm, car moves forward almost no wheelspin, then floor it, then second to Clarks no wheelspin and a second less to the first timing mark.
My first clip showed tyres used Toyo R1Rs, no wheel spin when flooring it flat out half way through first gear and second with 460 torques.Decent tyres are first, then technique.
Harewood Start Line
Blue Chimaera 13 year old tyres, 2500rpm, off clutch, car lurches to 45 degrees to track and wheelspin all the way to Clarks in second.
Yellow Chimaera 4 year old Falkens on the rear, similar technique, straight line, wheelspin all the way to Clarks in second.
Yellow Chimaera, new T1R tyres, similar technique, maybe only 2200rpm, car moves forward almost no wheelspin, then floor it, then second to Clarks no wheelspin and a second less to the first timing mark.
R1Rs are superb tyres.
QBee said:
And change up at 5200/5500 rpm, not 6000. Max torque is around 3750 rpm, but max BHP is around 5250 - 5500 rpm So when you drop the clutch back in you want to be at say 4000 rpm in the higher gear.
Torque and BHP graph - apologies if it's sideways. BHP is the curve that peaks just after they cross.
Is it a myth then to change just before the limiter?Torque and BHP graph - apologies if it's sideways. BHP is the curve that peaks just after they cross.
Will the revs after the change not have dropped too low?
How do road testers do it to give quoted 0 - 60 times then?
I know it's very unlikely for me to be able to replicate the quoted 4.8 sec in mine with me driving and on ordinary road surfaces.
Danattheopticians said:
Is it a myth then to change just before the limiter?
Will the revs after the change not have dropped too low?
How do road testers do it to give quoted 0 - 60 times then?
I know it's very unlikely for me to be able to replicate the quoted 4.8 sec in mine with me driving and on ordinary road surfaces.
Most sports cars have less torque than ours, so BHP is the main accelerating factor. Will the revs after the change not have dropped too low?
How do road testers do it to give quoted 0 - 60 times then?
I know it's very unlikely for me to be able to replicate the quoted 4.8 sec in mine with me driving and on ordinary road surfaces.
Ours are more torque orientated, so the BHP starts to drop away above 5500 rpm, but the torque is greatest in the mid-range. I find on track that the car is quicker if I change up where I said. I only hang on to 6000 rpm when I am coming to the end of the straight at 125 mph in fourth and don't want to change up and almost immediately down again just before a corner.
QBee said:
Most sports cars have less torque than ours, so BHP is the main accelerating factor.
Ours are more torque orientated, so the BHP starts to drop away above 5500 rpm, but the torque is greatest in the mid-range. I find on track that the car is quicker if I change up where I said. I only hang on to 6000 rpm when I am coming to the end of the straight at 125 mph in fourth and don't want to change up and almost immediately down again just before a corner.
This can be the problem at Harewood, I don't find the gear change:- 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 2nd particularly slick so my last time at there I held it in 2nd up to the limiter until Farmhouse. Makes me cringe to do so as I suffer too much mechanical sympathy sometimes but my best time ever in the TVR (not as fast as the Caterham 15 year ago). Going to try upping to 3rd and letting the revs drop next practice, just to see what happens as this used to be my routine.Ours are more torque orientated, so the BHP starts to drop away above 5500 rpm, but the torque is greatest in the mid-range. I find on track that the car is quicker if I change up where I said. I only hang on to 6000 rpm when I am coming to the end of the straight at 125 mph in fourth and don't want to change up and almost immediately down again just before a corner.
Skyedriver said:
QBee said:
Most sports cars have less torque than ours, so BHP is the main accelerating factor.
Ours are more torque orientated, so the BHP starts to drop away above 5500 rpm, but the torque is greatest in the mid-range. I find on track that the car is quicker if I change up where I said. I only hang on to 6000 rpm when I am coming to the end of the straight at 125 mph in fourth and don't want to change up and almost immediately down again just before a corner.
This can be the problem at Harewood, I don't find the gear change:- 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 2nd particularly slick so my last time at there I held it in 2nd up to the limiter until Farmhouse. Makes me cringe to do so as I suffer too much mechanical sympathy sometimes but my best time ever in the TVR (not as fast as the Caterham 15 year ago). Going to try upping to 3rd and letting the revs drop next practice, just to see what happens as this used to be my routine.Ours are more torque orientated, so the BHP starts to drop away above 5500 rpm, but the torque is greatest in the mid-range. I find on track that the car is quicker if I change up where I said. I only hang on to 6000 rpm when I am coming to the end of the straight at 125 mph in fourth and don't want to change up and almost immediately down again just before a corner.
It's a terrible feeling when your thrashing your RV8 but surely our re built engines can Handle 6000 revs all day long but am I being neive!
Our gearing does lend itself to flat out driving at bends in the proper gear but it does mean running at race speed revs all the time so what do you do,,,,,, those extra gear changes make it much slower in the braking zone and the danger then becomes being able to slow the car enough without spinning or getting out of shape,, flat in 3rd you can introduce the brakes with your left ft as your still on the throttle,,,this helps squat the car and gives far better balance as you then hit the brake peddle hard,, you also have the added benefit of your already on the brake pedal with your left ft so as you then release the brakes and turn in if your carrying to much speed you can use a gentle tap with your left ft and keep the gas on with your right,, this hopefully will slow you to the correct entry speed and give you a pitch change and rotate the rear slightly,, your calming the speed now and scrubbing speed with a very consistent throttle and just balanced enough to hold on to the speed you have through the apex etc,,,
You can still do this with right ft braking so you can use the clutch to change down but you then have to swap feet as you enter to still use the left foot to regulate things as I've just mentioned,, I simply brake with my right,,, into the right gear for the corner,, when I've slowed the car to an entry speed I think the front can take I get off the brakes and chuck it,,, you've got a few tenths of a second at best to then transfer your feet so you can get back on the throttle as early as humanly possible and still have the ability to brake,,, it's different if your trail braking but I tend to still end up with both feet on the brake for a split second and usually end the trail braking zone with my left foot,,, the compression is serious braking in its own right,,, for me I like to get the car up on the throttle and just balanced neutrally as early as possible and before the apex so I can avoid understeer once the car has been committed,, does any of that make any sense,,,, ?
Our gearing does lend itself to flat out driving at bends in the proper gear but it does mean running at race speed revs all the time so what do you do,,,,,, those extra gear changes make it much slower in the braking zone and the danger then becomes being able to slow the car enough without spinning or getting out of shape,, flat in 3rd you can introduce the brakes with your left ft as your still on the throttle,,,this helps squat the car and gives far better balance as you then hit the brake peddle hard,, you also have the added benefit of your already on the brake pedal with your left ft so as you then release the brakes and turn in if your carrying to much speed you can use a gentle tap with your left ft and keep the gas on with your right,, this hopefully will slow you to the correct entry speed and give you a pitch change and rotate the rear slightly,, your calming the speed now and scrubbing speed with a very consistent throttle and just balanced enough to hold on to the speed you have through the apex etc,,,
You can still do this with right ft braking so you can use the clutch to change down but you then have to swap feet as you enter to still use the left foot to regulate things as I've just mentioned,, I simply brake with my right,,, into the right gear for the corner,, when I've slowed the car to an entry speed I think the front can take I get off the brakes and chuck it,,, you've got a few tenths of a second at best to then transfer your feet so you can get back on the throttle as early as humanly possible and still have the ability to brake,,, it's different if your trail braking but I tend to still end up with both feet on the brake for a split second and usually end the trail braking zone with my left foot,,, the compression is serious braking in its own right,,, for me I like to get the car up on the throttle and just balanced neutrally as early as possible and before the apex so I can avoid understeer once the car has been committed,, does any of that make any sense,,,, ?
Edited by ClassiChimi on Sunday 1st May 10:35
Edited by ClassiChimi on Sunday 1st May 11:11
Ta.ClassiChimi said:
It's a terrible feeling when your thrashing your RV8 but surely our re built engines can Handle 6000 revs all day long but am I being neive!
Our gearing does lend itself to flat out driving at bends in the proper gear but it does mean running at race speed revs all the time so what do you do,,,,,, those extra gear changes make it much slower in the braking zone and the danger then becomes being able to slow the car enough without spinning or getting out of shape,, flat in 3rd you can introduce the brakes with your left ft as your still on the throttle,,,this helps squat the car and gives far better balance as you then hit the brake peddle hard,, you also have the added benefit of your already on the brake pedal with your left ft so as you then release the brakes and turn in if your carrying to much speed you can use a gentle tap with your left ft and keep the gas on with your right,, this hopefully will slow you to the correct entry speed and give you a pitch change and rotate the rear slightly,, your calming the speed now and scrubbing speed with a very consistent throttle and just balanced enough to hold on to the speed you have through the apex etc,,,
You can still do this with right ft braking so you can use the clutch to change down but you then have to swap feet as you enter to still use the left foot to regulate things as I've just mentioned,, I simply brake with my right,,, into the right gear for the corner,, when I've slowed the car to an entry speed I think the front can take I get off the brakes and chuck it,,, you've got a few tenths of a second at best to then transfer your feet so you can get back on the throttle as early as humanly possible and still have the ability to brake,,, it's different if your trail braking but I tend to still end up with both feet on the brake for a split second and usually end the trail braking zone with my left foot,,, the compression is serious braking in its own right,,, for me I like to get the car up on the throttle and just balanced neutrally as early as possible and before the apex so I can avoid understeer once the car has been committed,, does any of that make any sense,,,, ?
You missed out the bit where you shut your eyes and pray.....Our gearing does lend itself to flat out driving at bends in the proper gear but it does mean running at race speed revs all the time so what do you do,,,,,, those extra gear changes make it much slower in the braking zone and the danger then becomes being able to slow the car enough without spinning or getting out of shape,, flat in 3rd you can introduce the brakes with your left ft as your still on the throttle,,,this helps squat the car and gives far better balance as you then hit the brake peddle hard,, you also have the added benefit of your already on the brake pedal with your left ft so as you then release the brakes and turn in if your carrying to much speed you can use a gentle tap with your left ft and keep the gas on with your right,, this hopefully will slow you to the correct entry speed and give you a pitch change and rotate the rear slightly,, your calming the speed now and scrubbing speed with a very consistent throttle and just balanced enough to hold on to the speed you have through the apex etc,,,
You can still do this with right ft braking so you can use the clutch to change down but you then have to swap feet as you enter to still use the left foot to regulate things as I've just mentioned,, I simply brake with my right,,, into the right gear for the corner,, when I've slowed the car to an entry speed I think the front can take I get off the brakes and chuck it,,, you've got a few tenths of a second at best to then transfer your feet so you can get back on the throttle as early as humanly possible and still have the ability to brake,,, it's different if your trail braking but I tend to still end up with both feet on the brake for a split second and usually end the trail braking zone with my left foot,,, the compression is serious braking in its own right,,, for me I like to get the car up on the throttle and just balanced neutrally as early as possible and before the apex so I can avoid understeer once the car has been committed,, does any of that make any sense,,,, ?
Edited by ClassiChimi on Sunday 1st May 10:35
Edited by ClassiChimi on Sunday 1st May 11:11
The change up then down again just unsettles the car balance and the 2/3/2 gear change is easy missed if in a hurry
Skyedriver said:
You missed out the bit where you shut your eyes and pray.....
The change up then down again just unsettles the car balance and the 2/3/2 gear change is easy missed if in a hurry
The first time you change down to second gear very late before a track day corner (Murrays at Snetterton, or Mansfield at Cadwell, both tight left-handers), and then drop the clutch in without matching the revs, is the last time......you exit the track to the right, rear axle locked, ie in the exact opposite direction to that which you intended, and with a requirement for a new set of clean undies..... The change up then down again just unsettles the car balance and the 2/3/2 gear change is easy missed if in a hurry
Gassing Station | Chimaera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff