PayPal - escalating dispute
Discussion
I purchased a seminar through PayPal (into 4 figures so not an insignificant amount) but it was cancelled and thus I chased for a refund. Buyer didn't to mail so I chased it through PayPal. He had opportunity to reply before I escalated the dispute.
But after I escalated it, he has now got in touch and offered to refund and suggested I cancel the dispute as it has locked his funds(!) I replied that he should try to refund through PayPal and he said he has now refunded but cannot see if it has worked.
To be honest as trust is at a low point - I am reluctant to cancel the dispute. Any suggestions from anyone who knows PayPal - should I just wait for the alleged refund to appear?
But after I escalated it, he has now got in touch and offered to refund and suggested I cancel the dispute as it has locked his funds(!) I replied that he should try to refund through PayPal and he said he has now refunded but cannot see if it has worked.
To be honest as trust is at a low point - I am reluctant to cancel the dispute. Any suggestions from anyone who knows PayPal - should I just wait for the alleged refund to appear?
If you close the dispute you will not be able to reopen it or dispute it a second time. So don't close it until you have the money back.
The locked funds is BS in my opinion, because when a dispute is opened the disputed amount is set aside in his account and is held until you or he decide how to go forwards.
On his side he will I think be given three options by Paypal: Refund in full, offer partial refund or continue communication to resolve.
If he has refunded in full through that method then the dispute closes straight away and your money is returned from the amount that he lost when you opened the dispute.
Do not allow him to send you the money back through a separate transaction!
Everything needs to be linked to this transaction that is in dispute.
If he maintains that he has refunded and you still see no email from Paypal confirming case closed then I'd ring them and ask for confirmation on whether or not he has. They are usually quite helpful.
P.S. Now the dispute has been escalated to a claim he has a certain amount of time to react (the dates will be shown in the dispute) if he doesn't do anything Paypal will refund automatically.
The locked funds is BS in my opinion, because when a dispute is opened the disputed amount is set aside in his account and is held until you or he decide how to go forwards.
On his side he will I think be given three options by Paypal: Refund in full, offer partial refund or continue communication to resolve.
If he has refunded in full through that method then the dispute closes straight away and your money is returned from the amount that he lost when you opened the dispute.
Do not allow him to send you the money back through a separate transaction!
Everything needs to be linked to this transaction that is in dispute.
If he maintains that he has refunded and you still see no email from Paypal confirming case closed then I'd ring them and ask for confirmation on whether or not he has. They are usually quite helpful.
P.S. Now the dispute has been escalated to a claim he has a certain amount of time to react (the dates will be shown in the dispute) if he doesn't do anything Paypal will refund automatically.
Edited by schueymcfee on Wednesday 4th May 12:34
No probs!
In my experience when a refund is actioned it is done within 5 minutes and is completely automatic (despite the email they send saying "After a review Paypal has decided in favour of the buyer").
The only times it would take longer is when say for instance the seller provides proof of postage, at which point a Paypal person checks with Royal Mail tracking for example to see if the tracking shows as delivered. If it does then they go in favour of the seller; if it shows as tracking not recognised or not delivered they go in favour of the the buyer - this process can take days.
I realise in this case there is no asset as such that can be shown to have been sent or delivered, but like I said every time a refund has been done it has been pretty much instant.
Whatever you do don't close the case for any reason (there is no benefit to you at all anyway apart from out of politeness to the seller and a quicker refund) - otherwise you'll be snookered - you might have to sit out the 14 days for the auto refund.
If he tries to provide proof of delivered service then I'd be straight on the phone to Paypal, if you don't hear anything more from him then I'd be on the phone to Paypal before the time limit is up to confirm the money will auto refund. Crossing Ts and dotting Is and all that.
In my experience when a refund is actioned it is done within 5 minutes and is completely automatic (despite the email they send saying "After a review Paypal has decided in favour of the buyer").
The only times it would take longer is when say for instance the seller provides proof of postage, at which point a Paypal person checks with Royal Mail tracking for example to see if the tracking shows as delivered. If it does then they go in favour of the seller; if it shows as tracking not recognised or not delivered they go in favour of the the buyer - this process can take days.
I realise in this case there is no asset as such that can be shown to have been sent or delivered, but like I said every time a refund has been done it has been pretty much instant.
Whatever you do don't close the case for any reason (there is no benefit to you at all anyway apart from out of politeness to the seller and a quicker refund) - otherwise you'll be snookered - you might have to sit out the 14 days for the auto refund.
If he tries to provide proof of delivered service then I'd be straight on the phone to Paypal, if you don't hear anything more from him then I'd be on the phone to Paypal before the time limit is up to confirm the money will auto refund. Crossing Ts and dotting Is and all that.
schueymcfee said:
In my experience when a refund is actioned it is done within 5 minutes and is completely automatic (despite the email they send saying "After a review Paypal has decided in favour of the buyer").
That is what I expected as well - surely it's in everyone's interest to resolve it quickly. It has been two hours now and I have not had any updates. One thought - I mentioned 'fraud' as a reason for escalation (had very good reasons to do so) - but would that slow down the refund process?schueymcfee said:
If he tries to provide proof of delivered service then I'd be straight on the phone to Paypal, if you don't hear anything more from him then I'd be on the phone to Paypal before the time limit is up to confirm the money will auto refund. Crossing Ts and dotting Is and all that.
That is not possible now (without going into details and I have substantial evidence of non-delivery). If he did this I would happily bend him over a barrel with a half-decent lawyer.Edited by fido on Wednesday 4th May 13:15
It depends on what kind of fraud you have reported. If it was wrongful access to your account or hacking of account then they will investigate it and if they find no evidence of that you may well lose the case - that one takes days as well. We've had instances of buyer's remorse before who have claimed that they never made the purchase and filed a claim. Not one of them has ever won, so I guess their investigations check IPs, browsers and geo etc.
Not that I'm saying that's what you did
, I'm just sharing my experience of fraud on Paypal and in those cases they will investigate and it might take a while - I am not familiar with any other fraud options, sorry!
Not that I'm saying that's what you did
, I'm just sharing my experience of fraud on Paypal and in those cases they will investigate and it might take a while - I am not familiar with any other fraud options, sorry!schueymcfee said:
It depends on what kind of fraud you have reported. If it was wrongful access to your account or hacking of account then they will investigate it and if they find no evidence of that you may well lose the case - that one takes days as well. We've had instances of buyer's remorse before who have claimed that they never made the purchase and filed a claim. Not one of them has ever won, so I guess their investigations check IPs, browsers and geo etc.
Not that I'm saying that's what you did, I'm just sharing my experience of fraud on Paypal and in those cases they will investigate and it might take a while - I am not familiar with any other fraud options, sorry!
Read the OP..Not that I'm saying that's what you did
, I'm just sharing my experience of fraud on Paypal and in those cases they will investigate and it might take a while - I am not familiar with any other fraud options, sorry!A seminar was paid for, seminar was cancelled by supplier, supplier now refusing to refund and doing what he can not to refund ie getting the dispute cancelled and voided (this is the fraud part, gaining money by deception)
That's how I read it anyway. My advice, follow paypals instructions, ignore the vendors instructions.
I see, he may well have had his account locked down then until they can review the evidence. He should still have the ability to refund customers though, he just won't be able to take anymore money, move cash to his bank account or close it.
So I would've thought if he has actioned the refund it would still be instant, the claim would only run on into an investigation if he countered that it wasn't a fraud and had not refunded. Is he emailing you direct or through Paypal? Because at claim stage he should have the option to refund or continue communication with buyer. He can't communicate with you through Paypal unless he has chosen one of them and obviously choosing refund would just close the case.
Not 100% on that though as fraud may present him with different options - in any case good luck.
So I would've thought if he has actioned the refund it would still be instant, the claim would only run on into an investigation if he countered that it wasn't a fraud and had not refunded. Is he emailing you direct or through Paypal? Because at claim stage he should have the option to refund or continue communication with buyer. He can't communicate with you through Paypal unless he has chosen one of them and obviously choosing refund would just close the case.
Not 100% on that though as fraud may present him with different options - in any case good luck.
Thanks chaps - all good advice.
Just to spoke to PP - they said he should have no problems in Refunding through an Open Case (as mentioned before) - they are now getting in touch with him to 'assist' him in his attempts .. :-|
>> Is he emailing you direct or through Paypal?
My work address - have mentioned to PayPal and it is all safely logged.
Update:
Seller says he received instructions from PayPal but it doesn't work, and he has asked them to close the case .. whilst ranting about PayPal communication and suggesting that I could close the case and let him refund!
Part of me wants to give the Seller a Christopher Walken hug whilst saying "I love this guy!"
Just to spoke to PP - they said he should have no problems in Refunding through an Open Case (as mentioned before) - they are now getting in touch with him to 'assist' him in his attempts .. :-|
>> Is he emailing you direct or through Paypal?
My work address - have mentioned to PayPal and it is all safely logged.
Update:
Seller says he received instructions from PayPal but it doesn't work, and he has asked them to close the case .. whilst ranting about PayPal communication and suggesting that I could close the case and let him refund!
Part of me wants to give the Seller a Christopher Walken hug whilst saying "I love this guy!"
Edited by fido on Friday 6th May 12:28
veevee said:
Potentially if he has used some of the money out of the, and everyone has opened a dispute, he might not have any funds available in the account to refund with.
Spot on he has removed the cash or part of it and to execute the refunds he has to pull on his bank account / card which may not be up to it - this is your scenario.Escalate / do all the paypal stuff as THEY will refund you and then chase him for the cash.
fido said:
Update:
Seller says he received instructions from PayPal but it doesn't work, and he has asked them to close the case .. whilst ranting about PayPal communication and suggesting that I could close the case and let him refund!
Blame somebody else is standard delaying practice for scammers because many people relent.Seller says he received instructions from PayPal but it doesn't work, and he has asked them to close the case .. whilst ranting about PayPal communication and suggesting that I could close the case and let him refund!
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