996.1 GT3 or 997.1 Turbo?
Discussion
No question Oliie, just go drive them back to back and you will see how much more rewarding the 996GT3 is. A completely different league. Your first line states, quite clearly, that you want to replace your wonderful 7.2RS; the other cars you mention, including the 993 are not even close in terms of a replacement of this type of car.
Slippydiff said:
Mousem40 said:
You want to drive a gt3 80% of the time in the city? With that clutch and gearbox?
Madness I tells you, madness!
The only thing that's mad is the assumption you've made that all the 'boxes and clutches are abused and shot. They're not.Madness I tells you, madness!
A 996 GT3 box, whether Mk 1 or 2 that's been driven properly, and hasn't been fitted with some POS quick shift is a joy use be it out on the open road, on circuit, or around town.
Likewise a fresh clutch with decent (new) fluid, new release bearing ( and more importantly new crosshaft needle roller bearings) should be smooth (and whilst not Nissan Micra 1.0 litre light) more than manageable enough for most.
Post such as yours (and others who post that all 996 GT3's tramline, bumpsteer and are hopeless on the road accordingly) do these cars a great disservice.
Properly maintained (and they're not cheap to do so) 996 GT3's drive beautifully on the road when set up properly by someone who knows what they're doing. Poorly maintained, abused examples that aren't set up properly are just awful to drive (and hard work into the bargain).
For your interest, my 996.2 GT3 or any other 996.2 gt3 that I had the fortune to sit in or drive, all had seriously heavy clutches, and difficult gearboxes (with the shift getting lighter only when decent heat got into it) My car had been set up by Center gravity with full geo and corner weighting several times, all the dampers were refreshed or replaced. Moreover my gearbox fluid was replaced several times throughout its life too.
It's all relative. I'm giving my relative opinion. I detested driving it in traffic, or in town. If you're saying that it suddenly transforms into a much more manageable car if only I had a new release bearing and crossshaft needle roller, then so be it. I doubt it. How many GT3s have had those replaced?
Notwithstanding those elements, the suspension is hard, it's awful over speed bumps and general rutting.
Ask a 964RS driver to drive a 996.2GT3 and he'll tell you it drives like a Rolls Royce. It's all relative.
For me, in a car that's set up well and had money spent on it, it rode like a pig in traffic. I would absolutely rather have driven a Nissan Micra.
As you say it's all relative. Anyone who has the expectation that a 996 GT3 will ride on the road like a mildly tuned 911 and as such will remain comfortable and compliant will probably be didsapointed. But a driver looking for a car with optimum levels of driver involvement and feedback will be very happy indeed. If you are looking for pure absolutes you can't have both. The later 997 and 991 models have attempted to provide it via PASM and made a reasonably good fist of it. But when you drive one after a 996 GT3 you will see that the earlier car has much more feel.
the gearbox is another case in point. It's bulky stiff and vaigue when cold and needs warming up properly, but it's built to withstand constant abuse at racing speeds and like the rest of the drive train is a quantum leap forward to the standard car in terms of its ability to withstand regular track punishment. Big GT cars that can withstand that kind of regular punishment at very high speeds require a different type of engineering from regular road cars. Most drivers will not understand this or the magnitude of Porsches achievement in bringing what is essentially a pure bred race car to the road environment.
It never ceases to amaze me how well equipped the 996 GT3 is for both road and track use and it's incredible involvement. But a potential buyer must understand exactly what the car is and whether that falls in line with his or her requirements. It is a race car that can relatively comfortably be driven on the road and as such there will be compromises. The same compromises as the driver of a regular 911 will experience when tracking his vehicle when compared to tracking a GT3.
I love the experience of driving GT3's on the road - especially 996's. They represent the closest thing to driving a pure bred GT racing car on the road that it's probably possible to experience these days and a very rare thing. But I can understand why they are not for some drivers.
the gearbox is another case in point. It's bulky stiff and vaigue when cold and needs warming up properly, but it's built to withstand constant abuse at racing speeds and like the rest of the drive train is a quantum leap forward to the standard car in terms of its ability to withstand regular track punishment. Big GT cars that can withstand that kind of regular punishment at very high speeds require a different type of engineering from regular road cars. Most drivers will not understand this or the magnitude of Porsches achievement in bringing what is essentially a pure bred race car to the road environment.
It never ceases to amaze me how well equipped the 996 GT3 is for both road and track use and it's incredible involvement. But a potential buyer must understand exactly what the car is and whether that falls in line with his or her requirements. It is a race car that can relatively comfortably be driven on the road and as such there will be compromises. The same compromises as the driver of a regular 911 will experience when tracking his vehicle when compared to tracking a GT3.
I love the experience of driving GT3's on the road - especially 996's. They represent the closest thing to driving a pure bred GT racing car on the road that it's probably possible to experience these days and a very rare thing. But I can understand why they are not for some drivers.
If Tiptronic was so bad, why the hell then did Porsche keep pumping them out by the thousands in 964 993 996 997 etc,
and sell them buy the bucket loads, A 997 gen1 turbo will work well for small daily commute ,I know several owners that love there's and they do the occasional track day..
and sell them buy the bucket loads, A 997 gen1 turbo will work well for small daily commute ,I know several owners that love there's and they do the occasional track day..
Mousem40 said:
Lol thanks for your words of wisdom.
For your interest, my 996.2 GT3 or any other 996.2 gt3 that I had the fortune to sit in or drive, all had seriously heavy clutches, and difficult gearboxes (with the shift getting lighter only when decent heat got into it) My car had been set up by Center gravity with full geo and corner weighting several times, all the dampers were refreshed or replaced. Moreover my gearbox fluid was replaced several times throughout its life too.
It's all relative. I'm giving my relative opinion. I detested driving it in traffic, or in town. If you're saying that it suddenly transforms into a much more manageable car if only I had a new release bearing and crossshaft needle roller, then so be it. I doubt it. How many GT3s have had those replaced?
Notwithstanding those elements, the suspension is hard, it's awful over speed bumps and general rutting.
Ask a 964RS driver to drive a 996.2GT3 and he'll tell you it drives like a Rolls Royce. It's all relative.
For me, in a car that's set up well and had money spent on it, it rode like a pig in traffic. I would absolutely rather have driven a Nissan Micra.
You're welcome .... For your interest, my 996.2 GT3 or any other 996.2 gt3 that I had the fortune to sit in or drive, all had seriously heavy clutches, and difficult gearboxes (with the shift getting lighter only when decent heat got into it) My car had been set up by Center gravity with full geo and corner weighting several times, all the dampers were refreshed or replaced. Moreover my gearbox fluid was replaced several times throughout its life too.
It's all relative. I'm giving my relative opinion. I detested driving it in traffic, or in town. If you're saying that it suddenly transforms into a much more manageable car if only I had a new release bearing and crossshaft needle roller, then so be it. I doubt it. How many GT3s have had those replaced?
Notwithstanding those elements, the suspension is hard, it's awful over speed bumps and general rutting.
Ask a 964RS driver to drive a 996.2GT3 and he'll tell you it drives like a Rolls Royce. It's all relative.
For me, in a car that's set up well and had money spent on it, it rode like a pig in traffic. I would absolutely rather have driven a Nissan Micra.
I've owned 4 Mk 1's, two had new clutches, on both occasions it was recommended that the release bearings, clutch fork needle roller bearings and the clutch fork itself were replaced at the same time as the clutch assembly.
When I was shown the old needle roller assemblies they were red rusty ... The forks tend to wear at the point they bear on the release bearing carrier too.
I also briefly owned a 996 GT3 RS, with less than circa 12k miles, both the gearbox and clutch were light and smooth.
But I've also driven Mk 1 & 2's with heavy clutches and notchy, recalcitrant gearshifts, most GT3's have worked hard, many have done so on track, regrettably plenty will have been driven by individuals with no mechanical sympathy (or knowledge) of how their gearbox and synchro function. Many, many years ago I was a truck mechanic, so I'm fortunate to appreciate how the oily bits function.
Tough as they are mechanically, the gearboxes aren't bullet proof, synchro hubs wear, oil thins and loses it's ability to protect the synchro hubs, the end result is a box that has poor shift quality when cold, and has a poor change (notchy) or baulky when hot. Add in poorly adjusted or stretched shift cables and a worn clutch, and you end up with cars that display the gear change faults you've described.
If you'd care to read what I said in my post, at no point did I say YOUR car had suspension that was sub - optimal, merely that just as you've done with your assumption that all 996 GT3 clutches are heavy, others frequently have done the same with 996 GT3 suspension.
A car with tired dampers and old springs with a "fast road set up" is a dog to drive, yet many who drive them in this state think that's how they SHOULD drive.
I've owned 4 964 RS's too, so I suspect I'm in a better position than most to compare the ride quality of a nicely set up 964 RS with fresh dampers, tyres and springs, sensible geo and ride heights, against a 996 GT3. Yes the ride is on the firm side, but it's not the bone jarring, teeth shattering ride you and so many others allude too.
But as with most things on the interweb, if they get spouted often enough, they become "the truth" irrespective of the fact that frequently the individuals who perpetuate them rarely have first hand experience or the qualifications to make those judgements....
I've said my piece, and will now dutifully crawl back under the stone from whence I briefly emerged ... once again, sorry to have highlighted some mistruths at the expense of a good yarn.
My apologies for having put your nose out of joint, far too often these wonderful cars get berated for their road manners or drivability when the fact of the matter is, the example that's been driven was not indicative of the marque.
Edited by Slippydiff on Friday 27th May 08:48
All - thank you for your input... and of course the PH-calibre banter!
I am actually leaning towards the '97 993 C4S. I know that's completely different to the original options but allow me to explain.
The 7.2RS will always be a high benchmark for a track derived car for the road. In this respect I can't help but think I will be a little underwhelmed with the 6.1 GT3... it's a car with a similar philosophy but I feel I will be underwhelmed with the lack of power given what I was used to. While the rawness would've made up for it, this particular car I saw had 180k km on the clock and needless to say needed some freshening up. It has been repainted different colours at least 3 times and had 8 owners so is a little like the village bicycle. Given all of the factors I also think it would be hard to sell in the future if/when the time came.
The Turbo in tip just didn't do it for me. It seemed blunt and dimwitted. I think the fact that the used market discounts tip cars relative to their manual equivalent (even considering tip was more expensive when new) summarises the situation well. I just can't see a 997.1 tip turbo being coveted in any way in the future... for sure the PDK would be the go-to option if one didn't want the manual. So it leaves the car in a bit of a no-mans land.
And that brings me to the 993. This will be a nice contrast to the 7.2RS (I've not driven an aircooled before) and brings a different set of expectations and driving sensation to the table to the point that I wouldn't compare it to the other cars I have, and therefore will be judged and enjoyed on its own unique merits. The fact that it is currently owned by someone who counts a 911R, 7.3 4.0RS, 991RS amongst others in his garage speaks volumes about the care it has received by an enthusiast owner. Which for a mint condition 993 is icing on the cake.
Once I take delivery I'll be sure to post driving thoughts... and to see if it really was the right decision or not!
I am actually leaning towards the '97 993 C4S. I know that's completely different to the original options but allow me to explain.
The 7.2RS will always be a high benchmark for a track derived car for the road. In this respect I can't help but think I will be a little underwhelmed with the 6.1 GT3... it's a car with a similar philosophy but I feel I will be underwhelmed with the lack of power given what I was used to. While the rawness would've made up for it, this particular car I saw had 180k km on the clock and needless to say needed some freshening up. It has been repainted different colours at least 3 times and had 8 owners so is a little like the village bicycle. Given all of the factors I also think it would be hard to sell in the future if/when the time came.
The Turbo in tip just didn't do it for me. It seemed blunt and dimwitted. I think the fact that the used market discounts tip cars relative to their manual equivalent (even considering tip was more expensive when new) summarises the situation well. I just can't see a 997.1 tip turbo being coveted in any way in the future... for sure the PDK would be the go-to option if one didn't want the manual. So it leaves the car in a bit of a no-mans land.
And that brings me to the 993. This will be a nice contrast to the 7.2RS (I've not driven an aircooled before) and brings a different set of expectations and driving sensation to the table to the point that I wouldn't compare it to the other cars I have, and therefore will be judged and enjoyed on its own unique merits. The fact that it is currently owned by someone who counts a 911R, 7.3 4.0RS, 991RS amongst others in his garage speaks volumes about the care it has received by an enthusiast owner. Which for a mint condition 993 is icing on the cake.
Once I take delivery I'll be sure to post driving thoughts... and to see if it really was the right decision or not!
harleywilma said:
If Tiptronic was so bad, why the hell then did Porsche keep pumping them out by the thousands in 964 993 996 997 etc,
and sell them buy the bucket loads, A 997 gen1 turbo will work well for small daily commute ,I know several owners that love there's and they do the occasional track day..
my take:and sell them buy the bucket loads, A 997 gen1 turbo will work well for small daily commute ,I know several owners that love there's and they do the occasional track day..
production - probably waiting for technology to be good/cheap enough to jump to PDK replacement, they were slow to react and left well behind, then leapfrogged all the early SMG, F1, e-gear type affairs to bring out the very effective PDK. Might well have been the smart commercial decision.
"sell bucket loads" - because 80% of turbos are sold new to the wealthy who value the badge, performance and top-of-range cache not the feel/connectivity/evoness/<insert PH word here> and a old school auto suits them fine to waft around in with minimal effort. Tip also more liveable in London/cities where most new turbo buyers live/commute to.
Second hand prices attract more of an enthusiast buyer who has different balance of needs. So manuals tend to be more sort after and command premiums.
Only 2 manual 997.1 turbos for sale on PH today vs loads of tips, and I'm hanging on to mine
Edited by Adam B on Friday 27th May 10:50
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Fair comment, so why cant it just be respected as the technology of its time then.I know things have moved on and the pdk is up there with the best manuals and what the future holds for the gearbox only god and the racing mechanics knows,but surely if it was that bad they would have shelved them years ago or had a better alternative.harleywilma said:
but surely if it was that bad they would have shelved them years ago or had a better alternative.
as mentioned aboveproduction - probably waiting for technology to be good/cheap enough to jump to PDK replacement, they were slow to react and left well behind, then leapfrogged all the early SMG, F1, e-gear type affairs to bring out the very effective PDK. Might well have been the smart commercial decision.
Porsche aren't exactly early adopters - they persisted with that crap SIM card for years after Fiestas had bluetooth, took ages to get an ipod solution etc. Have caught up well now (PDK, Apple carplay)
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