Cerb steering feel
Discussion
Long time lurker around the Cerb forum so I've soaked up a reasonable amount of knowledge about Cerbs but to put into context I'm after a fun car for weekends and occasional use and prior to buying our current (project!) house had planned to get an IB 911 once the house was finished. Now some 5 years down the line with the house finished and a nice empty garage the ship has sailed in respect of classic 911 values - I had the budget for a decent one 5 years ago and despite budget increasing I can now only just about scrape onto the bottom end and TBH have not been impressed with the 2 examples I have viewed over the past year or so.
Anyway, one of the major attractions to me of the older 911's is the fantastic steering feel. Having driven an 'RS spec' IB some time ago I can only liken the steering feel to having 'brail at your fingertips' - abslutely everything was communicated, changes in camber, road surface, even a painted line in the road. Only other car that has got close to this for me is a Caterham R400 that I did a track day in. Elises/Exiges are v.good as in that they're very talkative as to bumps/camber changes but I didn't find they communicated the subtle changes in surface such as white lines etc. to the same extent that the older 911's do. I am being critical though and an Elise/Exige would most certainly be more than good enough. For me the whole raw/feel/communication thing is a big draw and something I'm actively seeking out in a fun 2nd car. How do the Cerb's compare?
Due to the prices of classic 911's I did start to look at 996's but the first one I test drove just felt dull to me, steering over assisted and relatively numb at 'sensible speeds'. I would say my e46 330i Msport daily had more communicative steering with better weight, if not as direct. This surprised me. I know from experience how much difference a good geo makes but was assured that the 996 was professionally set up/KSW3's etc.
Really I'm ideally trying to find something with rear seats as the kids are 6 and 3 and hence anything with 2 seats such as an Elise is going to get very limited use, but struggling to find anything that fits the criteria. In addition I also need something that's not too wide as I have a garage width limitation. Garage is a decent length at 24 feet but is only around 7ft 5" at it's narrowest point (around where the drivers door would open) so although a Cerb would technically 'fit' I'm wondering if I would be able to get the door open enough - I am slim and I have carpet on the walls but still...
Obviously I realise Cerbs have an abundance of power and straight line pace but that is not too important to me these days, for me it's more about the feel, rawness, fun, sound, sense of occasion etc. So how does a Cerb stack up in terms of steering feedback (and steering weight) and how wide is a Cerb including with the door open 'just' engough to squeeze out (window down)?
Are any of you taking your Cerbs to the Supercar event at Dunsfold this weekend? If so will come and say hello and have a good look around the cars - Enjoyed it last year, passengered round the track in a SC Atom
Anyway, one of the major attractions to me of the older 911's is the fantastic steering feel. Having driven an 'RS spec' IB some time ago I can only liken the steering feel to having 'brail at your fingertips' - abslutely everything was communicated, changes in camber, road surface, even a painted line in the road. Only other car that has got close to this for me is a Caterham R400 that I did a track day in. Elises/Exiges are v.good as in that they're very talkative as to bumps/camber changes but I didn't find they communicated the subtle changes in surface such as white lines etc. to the same extent that the older 911's do. I am being critical though and an Elise/Exige would most certainly be more than good enough. For me the whole raw/feel/communication thing is a big draw and something I'm actively seeking out in a fun 2nd car. How do the Cerb's compare?
Due to the prices of classic 911's I did start to look at 996's but the first one I test drove just felt dull to me, steering over assisted and relatively numb at 'sensible speeds'. I would say my e46 330i Msport daily had more communicative steering with better weight, if not as direct. This surprised me. I know from experience how much difference a good geo makes but was assured that the 996 was professionally set up/KSW3's etc.
Really I'm ideally trying to find something with rear seats as the kids are 6 and 3 and hence anything with 2 seats such as an Elise is going to get very limited use, but struggling to find anything that fits the criteria. In addition I also need something that's not too wide as I have a garage width limitation. Garage is a decent length at 24 feet but is only around 7ft 5" at it's narrowest point (around where the drivers door would open) so although a Cerb would technically 'fit' I'm wondering if I would be able to get the door open enough - I am slim and I have carpet on the walls but still...
Obviously I realise Cerbs have an abundance of power and straight line pace but that is not too important to me these days, for me it's more about the feel, rawness, fun, sound, sense of occasion etc. So how does a Cerb stack up in terms of steering feedback (and steering weight) and how wide is a Cerb including with the door open 'just' engough to squeeze out (window down)?
Are any of you taking your Cerbs to the Supercar event at Dunsfold this weekend? If so will come and say hello and have a good look around the cars - Enjoyed it last year, passengered round the track in a SC Atom
PAS is well balanced as there are flow restrictors within the pas system (which could easily be changed if desired)
the long door is to reach past the driver to enable rear seat passengers to access etc, so the door will not need to open fully for entry exit of the driver in a confined gap
the long door is to reach past the driver to enable rear seat passengers to access etc, so the door will not need to open fully for entry exit of the driver in a confined gap
In terms of rawness and sense of occasion nothing really come close to a Cerbera.
The feed back through the steering is lovely, subtle and finger tip sensitive you can feel as the front starts to let go, it is lovely and progressive.
I have changed the spring setting and camer angles but even before the car told you all you needed to know about the front end.
The feed back through the steering is lovely, subtle and finger tip sensitive you can feel as the front starts to let go, it is lovely and progressive.
I have changed the spring setting and camer angles but even before the car told you all you needed to know about the front end.
The Cerbera PAS is barely there to be honest, and feels very heavy after driving one of my other cars. That does mean that the PAS doesn't really corrupt the steering.
The steering is hugely communicative, and the fast rack makes it quite a pointy front end too, but the T-cars are also pointy. What's good about the Cerb is the fast rack combined with a more stable longer wheel base.
From what you say, OP, I reckon you'd like it.
The steering is hugely communicative, and the fast rack makes it quite a pointy front end too, but the T-cars are also pointy. What's good about the Cerb is the fast rack combined with a more stable longer wheel base.
From what you say, OP, I reckon you'd like it.
I ran a 911 and Cerbera at the same time. The Cerb was more direct, more alive, more feelsome.
As a sense of occasion getting in the Cerb is about fifty times more exciting than the 911 and they are far more powerful than anything in 996 guise bar the Turbo.
It will cost you considerably more to maintain than a 911 but they are going up in price slowly so hopefully than can offset it slightly...very slightly ! Ha.
Just make sure you get one with a sorted chassis.
Very special car is a Cerb
As a sense of occasion getting in the Cerb is about fifty times more exciting than the 911 and they are far more powerful than anything in 996 guise bar the Turbo.
It will cost you considerably more to maintain than a 911 but they are going up in price slowly so hopefully than can offset it slightly...very slightly ! Ha.
Just make sure you get one with a sorted chassis.
Very special car is a Cerb
Thanks for all the comments guys, sounds like I need to start looking seriously and maybe get to a specialist to have a test drive 
So anyone else got a slim garage around 7ft 5" width? do you manage to get in /out of the car in the garage? BTW - pushing the car in/out is not an option for me due to sloped drive.
So anyone else got a slim garage around 7ft 5" width? do you manage to get in /out of the car in the garage? BTW - pushing the car in/out is not an option for me due to sloped drive.
Pearcy said:
So anyone else got a slim garage around 7ft 5" width? do you manage to get in /out of the car in the garage? BTW - pushing the car in/out is not an option for me due to sloped drive.
I've used a garage of the type that is in a block of garages behind flats which are pretty slim. My 350z is more difficult getting in and out of than the Cerbera. Putting the window down helps a lot and for reference I am 6'1" and 14st. I haven't measured the width of the garage but I can't see how you could make them any narrower and still be useful. There are bump panels on the wall though to push the doors up against and very needed IMO. I'll try and remember to measure the actual width for you.The car is ~1800mm and with my garage at 2600mm I can't say I'd want it much narrower and I'm a small person. Your garage is ~2200mm so you may suffer as its the length of the door that scuppers you. All depends how flexible you are and how much you're bothered by this aspect; hopefully not very much as they are such great cars.
I've had four Elise's and switched to a Cerb last year as I wanted a 2+2 to fit the kids in on occasions.
Few cars match the steering feel of a Lotus, the Cerb is very good though and has been said above feels unassisted on the move. The suspension feels less sophisticated, it is more easily deflected by road imperfections but is pretty compliant especially on smaller wheels. It has that same raw feel though and has a massive feel good factor. The engines are quite something too - the noise is unbelievable!
Few cars match the steering feel of a Lotus, the Cerb is very good though and has been said above feels unassisted on the move. The suspension feels less sophisticated, it is more easily deflected by road imperfections but is pretty compliant especially on smaller wheels. It has that same raw feel though and has a massive feel good factor. The engines are quite something too - the noise is unbelievable!
Hi, I feel your pain with regards the IB 911, I sold my immaculate 1988 3.2 Carrera cabrio around 5/6 years ago for £ 13.5k & recently saw it for sale at a dealers in Scotland for £ 35k !!
Having said that if I hadn't sold it I wouldn't have been able to replace it with a Lotus Esprit S4s I had next. I kept that for 4 years & then sold the Lotus for more than I bought it for. That was then replaced with my 2004 Cerbera Speed 6 last year & it looks like Cerbera prices are rising too so I can't complain. To be honest if I'd kept the 911 with the values being as they are I would probably be reluctant to use it.
With regards your question on steering feel, I felt the 911 was good ( I suspect the coupe will be better still ) but the S4s was far superior in both ride, steering & handling, when I bought my Cerbera last year I wasn't happy with the steering or handling but having done some research I decided to replace the 18" spider wheels with some 18" wheels which were both lighter & had the correct offset. I found out that the Spiders were apparently never intended for the Cerb & the offset & width, especially on the fronts is wrong, since changing over to the new wheels the steering & handling are much improved, still not to Lotus standards but I never intend to do track days etc.
With regards the width of your garage the Cerb's doors are long, having said that my garage is 8' wide & I can get in & out easily, I just tried it with the door open 6" less & I can still do it just not as easy getting out, it helps with mine as the windows have been programed to drop further when you open the door. ( I'm 6' & 13 stone )
I would say it's not ideal but doable & I suspect you would struggle far more with a modern car given they are generally wider. I was surprised how narrow & small the Cerbera is ! I always thought they looked big but the Esprit was wider & the Cerb door mirrors don't stick out much past the body so you can park it quite close to the opposite wall. Make sure it has carpet on !
The one thing I do find with the Cerbera is that it feels much more special to drive than the 911 & even the Esprit ( although I think the Esprit won on looks but you can't see it when you're driving ) it goes like stink but also it sounds great when you just want to potter along, both the Esprit & the 911 had to be revved hard to get the best out of them which is great but I don't or often can't drive it at 100% for a lot of the time, I love pootling along in 3rd & listening to the pops & bangs from the exhaust.
I'm planning on doing a European trip next year & I think the Cerbera will be the best one of the 3 to be doing it in.
Hope this helps & good luck with your search.
Having said that if I hadn't sold it I wouldn't have been able to replace it with a Lotus Esprit S4s I had next. I kept that for 4 years & then sold the Lotus for more than I bought it for. That was then replaced with my 2004 Cerbera Speed 6 last year & it looks like Cerbera prices are rising too so I can't complain. To be honest if I'd kept the 911 with the values being as they are I would probably be reluctant to use it.
With regards your question on steering feel, I felt the 911 was good ( I suspect the coupe will be better still ) but the S4s was far superior in both ride, steering & handling, when I bought my Cerbera last year I wasn't happy with the steering or handling but having done some research I decided to replace the 18" spider wheels with some 18" wheels which were both lighter & had the correct offset. I found out that the Spiders were apparently never intended for the Cerb & the offset & width, especially on the fronts is wrong, since changing over to the new wheels the steering & handling are much improved, still not to Lotus standards but I never intend to do track days etc.
With regards the width of your garage the Cerb's doors are long, having said that my garage is 8' wide & I can get in & out easily, I just tried it with the door open 6" less & I can still do it just not as easy getting out, it helps with mine as the windows have been programed to drop further when you open the door. ( I'm 6' & 13 stone )
I would say it's not ideal but doable & I suspect you would struggle far more with a modern car given they are generally wider. I was surprised how narrow & small the Cerbera is ! I always thought they looked big but the Esprit was wider & the Cerb door mirrors don't stick out much past the body so you can park it quite close to the opposite wall. Make sure it has carpet on !
The one thing I do find with the Cerbera is that it feels much more special to drive than the 911 & even the Esprit ( although I think the Esprit won on looks but you can't see it when you're driving ) it goes like stink but also it sounds great when you just want to potter along, both the Esprit & the 911 had to be revved hard to get the best out of them which is great but I don't or often can't drive it at 100% for a lot of the time, I love pootling along in 3rd & listening to the pops & bangs from the exhaust.
I'm planning on doing a European trip next year & I think the Cerbera will be the best one of the 3 to be doing it in.
Hope this helps & good luck with your search.
Jabbah said:
Just measured the garage and it is 7'8". Makes it easier with the windows open as already said.
Ok, thanks for that - I had a quick measure in the garage on Saturday and placing the 1800 width approx where I think I would be able to position it leaves around 40-45 cm to the wall on the drivers side.(and yes, carpets on wall both sides!)
Hi Matt 
Although I'm an old git I consider myself to be a little naïve in driving talent an experience
BUT
of the cars I've owned I've never known anything with anywhere near the unbreakable turn-in of a Cerb. It's phenomenal.
BUT
Be very careful how you judge your test drive. Caerb owners are infamous for 'adjusting their ride to their syle' and Cerbs out there will have strange wheel/tyre sizes and possibly some unusual geometry set-up
SO
Do drive a few before you make a commitment.
All the
PJ
P.S. (If it worries you at all the Cerb has a turning circle just a little larger than the QE II)
Although I'm an old git I consider myself to be a little naïve in driving talent an experience
BUT
of the cars I've owned I've never known anything with anywhere near the unbreakable turn-in of a Cerb. It's phenomenal.
BUT
Be very careful how you judge your test drive. Caerb owners are infamous for 'adjusting their ride to their syle' and Cerbs out there will have strange wheel/tyre sizes and possibly some unusual geometry set-up
SO
Do drive a few before you make a commitment.
All the
PJ
P.S. (If it worries you at all the Cerb has a turning circle just a little larger than the QE II)
Edited by Mr Cerbera on Monday 4th July 18:58
jamieduff1981 said:
The steering is hugely communicative, and the fast rack makes it quite a pointy front end too, but the T-cars are also pointy.
Just wondering if its possible to reduce the pointy feel to the steering. Ive found this from day 1 on my car and ide say its the only thing ide change about the car...PS the car came with 16" wheels fitted, but its now got 18" spiders. BUT it was pointy before the spiders went on...
Another poster mentioned something about some internal valving on the rack that can be changed.???
Ta..
TailEndCharlie said:
jamieduff1981 said:
The steering is hugely communicative, and the fast rack makes it quite a pointy front end too, but the T-cars are also pointy.
Just wondering if its possible to reduce the pointy feel to the steering. Ive found this from day 1 on my car and ide say its the only thing ide change about the car...PS the car came with 16" wheels fitted, but its now got 18" spiders. BUT it was pointy before the spiders went on...
Another poster mentioned something about some internal valving on the rack that can be changed.???
Ta..
What you could try is:
- Different front wheel toe angles. Front wheel toe can liven up or deaden down the initial turn in. I assume you just feel a bit nervous moving the wheel off-centre at speed and it's ok otherwise?
- Different front to rear damper settings. A stiffer front end and softer rear end can deaden down the steering response.
- Disconnect rear anti-roll bar. As above, this effects a softening of the rear end reduces steering response.
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