R - first drive

[braddo]

Timetoburn said:

mdianuk said:

I think the new GT3 will be £105-£110k and I assume the R was around £150k, so maybe not £50k, but still the point is that the difference is quite substantial, maybe 40% more.

R list price is £137k and includes full buckets (£3k value?), ceramics (£6248 on the RS), PCM (£2141), phone (£446), sound pack (£396) if you want them at zero cost.

Add those items to your 991.2 GT3 at £105k basic and you're talking £117k - so more like £20k difference spec for spec.

That's before you factor in the magnesium roof, titanium exhaust, carbon bonnet and front end.

Wow. That does make the R look pretty compelling. I very much like the idea that it can be the lightest 911 since, what, a bare-bones early 996 C2, and before that you'd have to go back to a 3.2 Carrera.

[pistolp]

Hi Sam All - yes in all honesty. I was very lucky to get one I think, so had it come to it I would have paid 50k or so over for the right spec. But no more. I still feel that all this will end in tears and a fireball of torn up finance agreements. I'm just not into paying massive money for cars. 150-200k is just about workable, beyond that and I ask myself do I need to spend so much to enjoy driving? That's about my limit. If I had to spend over that to get my fix I'd just have a Caterham, looks rubbish but is the best driving experience bar none.

Re the price of the GT3.2 and R, I agree. It's a relatively small premium and worth every penny. Makes me laugh to think the 675LT is knocking on 300k with s big spec, even before a premium. The GT3 will be track biased and that'll jeopardise it for me. I've already said what I like about the R. It's not been designed for ultimate grip and it's better for it. But rest assured, the next GT3 will be an extremely attractive package too. I think the 997.2 GT3 and 991 GT3 are drop dead gorgeous. But the new 991.2 will ultimately succumb to appeasing the track rats. It's no bad thing, it'll just be different - which Is sort of the point!

Would I have a manual. That wouldn't be an easy call. When I don't have a choice it's so easy!

Edited by pistolp on Tuesday 19th July 22:20

Edited by pistolp on Tuesday 19th July 22:28

[Sam All]

[pistolp]

Cheers! Also don't mean to sound sanctimonious about getting one and being 'lucky', but genuinely I didn't know for ages and I know how many missed out. It's a real pity because the car has been and will be dogged by the allocation story.

[footsoldier]

Having not yet driven the R, I don't know if it's very good or not. pistolp is the only one on the thread who has, I think. He's also owned/owns lots of good, (analogue) cars, and can drive better than 99%+ of the population. I'lll wager he won't get passed by many RS on a track day. (I don't expect to either!), so that's a pretty good start.

Not that the R is about lap times, but I also have to say, I found the RS a bit too assisted on track - it's a great powertrain, but the systems are now so integral that they are not just for safety, but you have to use them to go fast. No braking finesse; then use the RWS to go in 'too fast'; stand on the throttle on the way out etc.

The R will still have a lot of that assistance I know, but the gearbox alone is a game changer for me. I can't say how much less satisfying I find it, on road or track, when you're not coming down the gearbox on the brakes, trying to get a perfect rev match, while still hitting the apex, not overslowing, feeding in the power, going back up through the box etc. Take that out, and it's a massively less involving experience, IMO. Cruise around (quickly..) in an auto for sure, but no interest in compromising the gearbox for a meaningless laptime on a track day or a faster boat round a back road.

So, my guess is that R will be very good, for a modern car, with modern safety requirements etc. It takes more than a quick escorted test drive to know for sure, as pp says himself. It won't be clear if its a 'classic' for a while yet, once all the hype has died down, (and the next manual GT3 is launched for comparison)

The parts bin thing is not a good argument though, as a few clicks on dampers, or a roll bar etc cam transform a car, so it's easy to see how optimising a total package with lots of quality elements could add up to more than sum of the parts bin. It's always going to be a 991 so you can't expect something totally different. Same with GT4 comparison - I know a lot of people that find it relatively underpowered, but it's just a different car, I can't see why you would ever chose one over an R, unless for justifiable financial reasons. (PS - I'll unfortunately be selling an Exige V6 to make garage space for the R. I bought that in preference to a GT4 which I passed on. Not much of a speculator!)

On owners generally - In the US it's different, due to 918 programme, but in the UK I really don't think these cars have been obtained by deliberate speculators. It was too diffiicult to get, even for very good customers (they should have made a lot more, I agree). I'll bet the RS/GT4 speculator percentage is much higher, albeit there will no doubt be some Rs for sale if people are silly enough to pay multiples of the list price for them.

Of the people I know of who are getting an R, (other than George Clooney to be fair...), they are all long term car nuts who have had or still have lots of proper cars along the way, and have got themselves into a position to be able to buy better cars for the same reasons they've always bought them.

Unfortunately just as many couldn't get one, but that's another story, as we all know,

[Zadkiel]

footsoldier said:

Sounds very good , especially coming from someone who can drive properly

I've not been reading the reviews, until last night. as was unhappy at not being allocated a car.

Yesterday, out of the blue, I was allocated a car! Just specced it an hour ago, and getting built in Sept. Can't wait now...

Sadly I am the opposite! I thought I was in with a pretty good chance of getting one so read all about it pretty actively, then sadly found out that it was not happening, now I'm not so keen to hear how good it is!

Congrats on the allocation though, I'm sure it will be a great car.

[GT4P]

Sadly many of us would have liked a chance at buying a 991R but luckily there are still plenty of good cars to be had in the Porsche stable for all budgets! I would have liked a sport classic but too expensive new and more so now( was hopeful that prices would fall which they did to about £100k) but a 997gts is a good alternative and a lot cheaper even at its current level!

[Digga]

braddo said:

Timetoburn said:

mdianuk said:

I think the new GT3 will be £105-£110k and I assume the R was around £150k, so maybe not £50k, but still the point is that the difference is quite substantial, maybe 40% more.

R list price is £137k and includes full buckets (£3k value?), ceramics (£6248 on the RS), PCM (£2141), phone (£446), sound pack (£396) if you want them at zero cost.

Add those items to your 991.2 GT3 at £105k basic and you're talking £117k - so more like £20k difference spec for spec.

That's before you factor in the magnesium roof, titanium exhaust, carbon bonnet and front end.

Wow. That does make the R look pretty compelling. I very much like the idea that it can be the lightest 911 since, what, a bare-bones early 996 C2, and before that you'd have to go back to a 3.2 Carrera.

That was my take on it. As I said earlier in the thread, totally academic, since I am not and was not in the market for an R and can't personally justify that sort of money but given the facts, I do think it is a good deal and a very nice package. I'd love to drive one.

[mdianuk]

Timetoburn said:

R list price is £137k and includes full buckets (£3k value?), ceramics (£6248 on the RS), PCM (£2141), phone (£446), sound pack (£396) if you want them at zero cost.

Add those items to your 991.2 GT3 at £105k basic and you're talking £117k - so more like £20k difference spec for spec.

That's before you factor in the magnesium roof, titanium exhaust, carbon bonnet and front end.

Thanks for the information, good to know. In that case, a relative bargain, but I'd still have the GT4 and spend the 'change' on an RS6...or hookers!

[pistolp]

And the 4.0 engine with specially developed (partly) new gearbox

[WCZ]

pistolp said:

I'm just not into paying massive money for cars.

you had an F50 at one point though, right?
must have paid 200k+ for that

[pistolp]

WCZ said:

you had an F50 at one point though, right?
must have paid 200k+ for that

Yes but that was 5y ago when I felt they weren't expensive. Paid 375k, turns out I was right. Now they're 1m+ and I just feel they've risen too fast too quickly to be sustainable. And with interest rates at historical lows. etc.

Some people probably wont use their R's and some people probably will sell them for a big profit. Naff all anyone of us can do about it.

[WCZ]

pistolp said:

Yes but that was 5y ago when I felt they weren't expensive. Paid 375k, turns out I was right. Now they're 1m+ and I just feel they've risen too fast too quickly to be sustainable. And with interest rates at historical lows. etc.

Some people probably wont use their R's and some people probably will sell them for a big profit. Naff all anyone of us can do about it.

no doubt, what did you think of the 50?

[Dr S]

I am really torn here. The 991R was my dream car - the best "new age" 911 in my view (I'm a big fan of the 7.2 GT3/RSs). Then Porsche messed it up when my OPC's management "allocated" the cars directly to customers depsite me having been the first who got an option on the car.

Reading glowing reviews of the R just increases my frustration. What's the point of demonstrating what could be possible if Porsche does not want customers to actually buy the car. I am seriously P***ed off with Porsche. Not sure I want to buy another one

[Sam All]

Dr S said:

I am really torn here. The 991R was my dream car - the best "new age" 911 in my view (I'm a big fan of the 7.2 GT3/RSs). Then Porsche messed it up when my OPC's management "allocated" the cars directly to customers depsite me having been the first who got an option on the car.

Reading glowing reviews of the R just increases my frustration. What's the point of demonstrating what could be possible if Porsche does not want customers to actually buy the car. I am seriously P***ed off with Porsche. Not sure I want to buy another one

If the 7.2 GT3 is the closest thing to the 991R, buy one of those at £120k - and it has the mezger engine/narrow body + does not have the space age anonymous centre console.

[Steve Rance]

I like the concept of the R but realy struggle with the Rear wheel steer and fully active diff, roll bars and damping. If there's a trade off to be had, i'd much prefer an analogue car with PDK that a manual digital.

[Sam All]

Steve Rance said:

I like the concept of the R but realy struggle with the Rear wheel steer and fully active diff, roll bars and damping. If there's a trade off to be had, i'd much prefer an analogue car with PDK that a manual digital.

That brings us back to the 6GT3

[isaldiri]

Steve Rance said:

I like the concept of the R but realy struggle with the Rear wheel steer and fully active diff, roll bars and damping. If there's a trade off to be had, i'd much prefer an analogue car with PDK that a manual digital.

Think the 991R has a fixed ratio mechanical diff, like the GT4. Only the PDK equipped cars seem to come with the fancy multi ratio e-diff. Still will have rear wheel steer and the rear wheel braking per torque vectoring though.

[pistolp]

WCZ said:

no doubt, what did you think of the 50?

Stunning but way too big and too top endy for the road. Also felt huge as a LHD drive. Just a bit awkward in the UK. Mine also had a dodgy shift, can't remember where it wasn't right but coming down the box was very tricky in a couple of gears. It wasn't supposed to be like that and probably would have cost 30k to sort!

In short it made a sensational noise and there was real theatre to the whole thing. It literally shook and vibrated due to the engine. It's bolted to the chassis. Made me feel like a kid to be honest, which is kind of what Ferraris are supposed to do. But at today's money they don't make any sense to me at all. Or maybe I mean I can't afford them anymore? I would have one over another F40.

[Steve Rance]

isaldiri said:

Think the 991R has a fixed ratio mechanical diff, like the GT4. Only the PDK equipped cars seem to come with the fancy multi ratio e-diff. Still will have rear wheel steer and the rear wheel braking per torque vectoring though.

Ah, I stand corrected. You can also get round the rear wheel braking by fitting a stronger/motorsport diff.