997.2 GT3 RS.....sensible buy at the moment?

997.2 GT3 RS.....sensible buy at the moment?

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Fokker

3,460 posts

221 months

Friday 20th January 2017
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Slippydiff said:
Market's difficult to call currently I. Sure JZM are shifting metal, but they don't make the market. Personally I think Mk1 996 GT3's are too toppy at the moment (there's £5k min to come off all of them). Gen 1 997's are looking the same (and dare I say it, the legendary Mr Demon's pricey overhauls are probably lurking for a lot of what are 10-11 year old Gen 1 cars now) At £80-85k (or in some cases more) the Gen 1 cars don't look particularly good value when compared to a Gen 2 at £100-110. I know which I'd rather have, and it'd be the one with a 3.8 engine.

Decent colour, good spec Gen 2 cars seem to have all but disappeared. I considered a Speed Yellow left hooker in Germany in Oct-Nov last year. but couldn't be arsed with the faff of getting it inspected (all the moreso when the Strasse car looked to be a better deal with the steering wheel on the right side).

I was in Solihull Porsche chatting to the parts guys and the Gen 2 car they have caught my eye. I looked over it and sat in it but with Comfort seats it wasn't THAT inspiring, likewise the colour is discreet, but I'd probably choose white over Meteor ? (and I'm not a massive fan of white).

I fall into "the seats maketh the car" group I'm afraid, and fitting folding carbon backed buckets into a comfort seat equipped Gen 2 car is not a cheap undertaking, as you know you'll need to budget £8+k

http://www.carnewal.com/products/P87/p97064/GT2-Se...

I think prices have plateaued and I think some of the Ferrari market (certainly the LHD 360 CS and 430 Scuderia) has gone/is going the same way. Though clearly we're in the depths of winter and the market should start to move again come the end of Feb into March.

I think the Gen 2 is a peach of a car, and its relative rarity (compared with the Gen 1 cars) will only help to prop prices up. I'd say they're a safe bet, but the spec/colour is important, added to which it's a buyers market ..... unless your car is placed with JZM, obviously ! !

I've not been following/studying the Gen 2 RS market, so I'm really not qualified to comment. Though for me the Gen 1 and 2 997 GT3 waters are muddied by the GT4, Sure it's not got a Mezger, but with prices having softened (and some cars seemingly being sold privately for sub £85k) there's a compelling case for them over the older cars. New, warrantied, and probably not going to be repeated..... (unless you buy into the GT4 RS rumours) either way, I don't think there's any need to rush into the marketplace.
I agree with you on all of that. I've been watching the Scud and CS market out of interest too and they've definitely softened. Even RHD Scuds now well under 200k.
Would be good if the Speciale took a decent tumble, I wouldn't mind one of those!

JZM really do seem to be selling almost everything that comes through their doors very quickly. They told me that they could have sold the recent black 997 GT3 Gen 2 CS about twenty times over.
I'm a fan of selling back through my dealer and always will but they make a compelling case for a lot of people who want rid.

I can see the 991 GT3 RS being a potential good buy when the gen 2 is released. I'll have mine in 'Cadburys Milk Tray' please (Ultra Violet!)

Cheib

23,113 posts

174 months

Friday 20th January 2017
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I hope you gents are right! Though I have a horrible feeling in the short term prices are still very firm. 360 CS and 430 Scud prices are probably impacted by 458 Speciale ? Which Ferrari seem to have made rather more of than people expected. GT4's are definitely an interesting option and yes they have come off but as is much debated on the Gt4 thread they are still shifting despite it being mid-winter. My sense is if you read thread like the Gt4 thread and this one is that there are still lots of people interested in buying these cars....and I can't see the interest in 997.2 GT3 being abated if there are decent allocation of 991.2 GT3 and you can buy a manual! I certainly don't think the people that own these cars will be selling them to buy the 991.2.

One thing is for sure if that its a great market for the likes of JZM. Very easy to ring a customer and say you have "the perfect spec car" coming in...."You've got first shot, I am pretty sure if you don't want it I can sell it today". Twitter is a massively powerful tool for them with rare cars too...perfect way to get customers competing all at once.

jimmyslr

798 posts

272 months

Friday 20th January 2017
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Cheib said:
I hope you gents are right! Though I have a horrible feeling in the short term prices are still very firm. 360 CS and 430 Scud prices are probably impacted by 458 Speciale ? Which Ferrari seem to have made rather more of than people expected. GT4's are definitely an interesting option and yes they have come off but as is much debated on the Gt4 thread they are still shifting despite it being mid-winter. My sense is if you read thread like the Gt4 thread and this one is that there are still lots of people interested in buying these cars....and I can't see the interest in 997.2 GT3 being abated if there are decent allocation of 991.2 GT3 and you can buy a manual! I certainly don't think the people that own these cars will be selling them to buy the 991.2.

One thing is for sure if that its a great market for the likes of JZM. Very easy to ring a customer and say you have "the perfect spec car" coming in...."You've got first shot, I am pretty sure if you don't want it I can sell it today". Twitter is a massively powerful tool for them with rare cars too...perfect way to get customers competing all at once.
Whilst you might be correct in general about 997.2 GT3 owners not wanting to chop them in for a 991.2 GT3, it would be wrong that nobody is thinking that. I'm one of those people. I'm open minded on this, but I'm on the list (who knows where that will get me) for 991.2 and I don't really need two GT3s with a cage and two seats; I'd use them each for the same occasions plus there's only so many slots in th garage. No decision made yet, but I do see the cars as having many similarities.

Cheib

23,113 posts

174 months

Friday 20th January 2017
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jimmyslr said:
Whilst you might be correct in general about 997.2 GT3 owners not wanting to chop them in for a 991.2 GT3, it would be wrong that nobody is thinking that. I'm one of those people. I'm open minded on this, but I'm on the list (who knows where that will get me) for 991.2 and I don't really need two GT3s with a cage and two seats; I'd use them each for the same occasions plus there's only so many slots in th garage. No decision made yet, but I do see the cars as having many similarities.
You're about to get deluged with PM's! I'd certainly be interested. Good luck with the allocation....lots of fingers crossed for that on PH!

S1MMA

2,378 posts

218 months

Monday 23rd January 2017
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Slippydiff said:
Market's difficult to call currently I. Sure JZM are shifting metal, but they don't make the market. Personally I think Mk1 996 GT3's are too toppy at the moment (there's £5k min to come off all of them). Gen 1 997's are looking the same (and dare I say it, the legendary Mr Demon's pricey overhauls are probably lurking for a lot of what are 10-11 year old Gen 1 cars now) At £80-85k (or in some cases more) the Gen 1 cars don't look particularly good value when compared to a Gen 2 at £100-110. I know which I'd rather have, and it'd be the one with a 3.8 engine.

I think the Gen 2 is a peach of a car, and its relative rarity (compared with the Gen 1 cars) will only help to prop prices up. I'd say they're a safe bet, but the spec/colour is important, added to which it's a buyers market ..... unless your car is placed with JZM, obviously ! !

I've not been following/studying the Gen 2 RS market, so I'm really not qualified to comment. Though for me the Gen 1 and 2 997 GT3 waters are muddied by the GT4, Sure it's not got a Mezger, but with prices having softened (and some cars seemingly being sold privately for sub £85k) there's a compelling case for them over the older cars. New, warrantied, and probably not going to be repeated..... (unless you buy into the GT4 RS rumours) either way, I don't think there's any need to rush into the marketplace.
Usually I agree with your comments Slippy my old mucker, but I'm not sure you have it completely right this time.

Your point about gen 1 cars not looking like good value at 80-85k, vs 100-110k for gen 2 doesn’t stack up for me. I have firsthand experience of comparing 3.6 gen 1 vs 3.8 gen 2, and there is hardly any difference in straight line performance when both are fully wrung out. Whatever mid range torque benefits that exist with the 3.8 do not translate to any outright performance gains over the 3.6 as you don’t see that extra mid range torque when shifting at max rpm. You can counter with printed stats that this must be wrong, but I have raced a gen 1 3.6 comfort vs gen 2 3.8 clubbie (with full TI akrapovik also on the 3.8) 5 times on a drag strip, and even though the 3.6 won every race (driver skill on launch) the 3.8 made no gain on the 3.6 whatsoever up to 110+ mph, it was dead even. That’s first hand same conditions side by side, no excuses.

So what do you get for your £30k extra for the 3.8, well you get a more rare car in the UK – so if you like to win the “when did you last see a gen 2 on the road”, you win that one. Not like Gen 1 3.6 are just falling out of people’s pockets on the road to be fair. Howmanyleft are showing gen 1 3.6 as 190 licensed cars with 37 SORN, so 227 total. The gen 2 3.8 is showing as 115 licensed and 29 SORN so 144 total. Yes it’s more rare, but not night and day is it.

What else do you get, the black centre console with updated PCM 3 is better, Bluetooth connection is nice. Nothing a mobridge won’t fix on a gen 1. Front lift is the single most beneficial option I can see on the Gen 2, but this adds weight – so it’s a trade off. If the handling set up on the Gen 2 is that much different to a Gen 1, then instead of refreshing the gen 1 to gen 1 settings, you can refresh to gen 2 surely (same chassis) so that’s not really a big issue.

What else, active engine mounts? Meh. You lose the ability to have rear seats in the gen 2 over gen 1 If that’s an issue for anyone. Addition of PSM – meh. Centre lock – another meh. You do get double the downforce on the gen 2, so when above 130mph I’m sure it will make a small difference (they don’t produce much anyway).

For your £30k, you could undertake Demon’s 10k refresh, and still be 20k better off. So how does Gen 1 look like such poor value? New diff, shocks re done, brake refurb, new bushes, suspension arms, and other bits tidy up and 20k in your pocket vs a 3.8 with nothing done to it and Bluetooth and you are 30k down. Yah sounds like a bargain smile

On your GT4 point, I’m not sold that it’s really a big threat to the 997 GT3 market. Your “compelling” case around warranty is also not correct, my gen 1 3.6 has full Porsche warranty thanks and that will continue until 2022 – which is plenty of comfort on that front. You brush not having a mezger off as a minor point, it’s not so minor though is it? Whilst the GT4s are nice, I saw a couple at Silverstone a few months back, they still don’t have the following or cache of a GT3, however wrong or right that is. Bit like the 30k delta of 3.6 vs 3.8 smile. If you are convinced where is your GT4? In fact where is your non-mezger GT car in your history since 2011? Got ya there mate smile

Just opening up the other side of the coin here, and agree with you on the market points.

abidr500

148 posts

156 months

Monday 23rd January 2017
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S1MMA said:
Slippydiff said:
Market's difficult to call currently I. Sure JZM are shifting metal, but they don't make the market. Personally I think Mk1 996 GT3's are too toppy at the moment (there's £5k min to come off all of them). Gen 1 997's are looking the same (and dare I say it, the legendary Mr Demon's pricey overhauls are probably lurking for a lot of what are 10-11 year old Gen 1 cars now) At £80-85k (or in some cases more) the Gen 1 cars don't look particularly good value when compared to a Gen 2 at £100-110. I know which I'd rather have, and it'd be the one with a 3.8 engine.

I think the Gen 2 is a peach of a car, and its relative rarity (compared with the Gen 1 cars) will only help to prop prices up. I'd say they're a safe bet, but the spec/colour is important, added to which it's a buyers market ..... unless your car is placed with JZM, obviously ! !

I've not been following/studying the Gen 2 RS market, so I'm really not qualified to comment. Though for me the Gen 1 and 2 997 GT3 waters are muddied by the GT4, Sure it's not got a Mezger, but with prices having softened (and some cars seemingly being sold privately for sub £85k) there's a compelling case for them over the older cars. New, warrantied, and probably not going to be repeated..... (unless you buy into the GT4 RS rumours) either way, I don't think there's any need to rush into the marketplace.
Usually I agree with your comments Slippy my old mucker, but I'm not sure you have it completely right this time.

Your point about gen 1 cars not looking like good value at 80-85k, vs 100-110k for gen 2 doesn’t stack up for me. I have firsthand experience of comparing 3.6 gen 1 vs 3.8 gen 2, and there is hardly any difference in straight line performance when both are fully wrung out. Whatever mid range torque benefits that exist with the 3.8 do not translate to any outright performance gains over the 3.6 as you don’t see that extra mid range torque when shifting at max rpm. You can counter with printed stats that this must be wrong, but I have raced a gen 1 3.6 comfort vs gen 2 3.8 clubbie (with full TI akrapovik also on the 3.8) 5 times on a drag strip, and even though the 3.6 won every race (driver skill on launch) the 3.8 made no gain on the 3.6 whatsoever up to 110+ mph, it was dead even. That’s first hand same conditions side by side, no excuses.

So what do you get for your £30k extra for the 3.8, well you get a more rare car in the UK – so if you like to win the “when did you last see a gen 2 on the road”, you win that one. Not like Gen 1 3.6 are just falling out of people’s pockets on the road to be fair. Howmanyleft are showing gen 1 3.6 as 190 licensed cars with 37 SORN, so 227 total. The gen 2 3.8 is showing as 115 licensed and 29 SORN so 144 total. Yes it’s more rare, but not night and day is it.

What else do you get, the black centre console with updated PCM 3 is better, Bluetooth connection is nice. Nothing a mobridge won’t fix on a gen 1. Front lift is the single most beneficial option I can see on the Gen 2, but this adds weight – so it’s a trade off. If the handling set up on the Gen 2 is that much different to a Gen 1, then instead of refreshing the gen 1 to gen 1 settings, you can refresh to gen 2 surely (same chassis) so that’s not really a big issue.

What else, active engine mounts? Meh. You lose the ability to have rear seats in the gen 2 over gen 1 If that’s an issue for anyone. Addition of PSM – meh. Centre lock – another meh. You do get double the downforce on the gen 2, so when above 130mph I’m sure it will make a small difference (they don’t produce much anyway).

For your £30k, you could undertake Demon’s 10k refresh, and still be 20k better off. So how does Gen 1 look like such poor value? New diff, shocks re done, brake refurb, new bushes, suspension arms, and other bits tidy up and 20k in your pocket vs a 3.8 with nothing done to it and Bluetooth and you are 30k down. Yah sounds like a bargain smile

On your GT4 point, I’m not sold that it’s really a big threat to the 997 GT3 market. Your “compelling” case around warranty is also not correct, my gen 1 3.6 has full Porsche warranty thanks and that will continue until 2022 – which is plenty of comfort on that front. You brush not having a mezger off as a minor point, it’s not so minor though is it? Whilst the GT4s are nice, I saw a couple at Silverstone a few months back, they still don’t have the following or cache of a GT3, however wrong or right that is. Bit like the 30k delta of 3.6 vs 3.8 smile. If you are convinced where is your GT4? In fact where is your non-mezger GT car in your history since 2011? Got ya there mate smile

Just opening up the other side of the coin here, and agree with you on the market points.
Also, the difference between a 7.1CS and an 7.1RS is very little. Apart from the RS badge and again rarity (i don't know the exact numbers), there is another questionable delta between the two models that might lead one to conclude that a 7.1 gt3 is good value.

Cheib

23,113 posts

174 months

Monday 23rd January 2017
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On the wider market points the Arizona auctions over the weekend weren't great. Both 993 GT2's failed to sell and several other cars struggled.

Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Monday 23rd January 2017
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S1MMA said:
Usually I agree with your comments Slippy my old mucker, but I'm not sure you have it completely right this time.

Your point about gen 1 cars not looking like good value at 80-85k, vs 100-110k for gen 2 doesn’t stack up for me. I have firsthand experience of comparing 3.6 gen 1 vs 3.8 gen 2, and there is hardly any difference in straight line performance when both are fully wrung out. Whatever mid range torque benefits that exist with the 3.8 do not translate to any outright performance gains over the 3.6 as you don’t see that extra mid range torque when shifting at max rpm. You can counter with printed stats that this must be wrong, but I have raced a gen 1 3.6 comfort vs gen 2 3.8 clubbie (with full TI akrapovik also on the 3.8) 5 times on a drag strip, and even though the 3.6 won every race (driver skill on launch) the 3.8 made no gain on the 3.6 whatsoever up to 110+ mph, it was dead even. That’s first hand same conditions side by side, no excuses.

So what do you get for your £30k extra for the 3.8, well you get a more rare car in the UK – so if you like to win the “when did you last see a gen 2 on the road”, you win that one. Not like Gen 1 3.6 are just falling out of people’s pockets on the road to be fair. Howmanyleft are showing gen 1 3.6 as 190 licensed cars with 37 SORN, so 227 total. The gen 2 3.8 is showing as 115 licensed and 29 SORN so 144 total. Yes it’s more rare, but not night and day is it.

What else do you get, the black centre console with updated PCM 3 is better, Bluetooth connection is nice. Nothing a mobridge won’t fix on a gen 1. Front lift is the single most beneficial option I can see on the Gen 2, but this adds weight – so it’s a trade off. If the handling set up on the Gen 2 is that much different to a Gen 1, then instead of refreshing the gen 1 to gen 1 settings, you can refresh to gen 2 surely (same chassis) so that’s not really a big issue.

What else, active engine mounts? Meh. You lose the ability to have rear seats in the gen 2 over gen 1 If that’s an issue for anyone. Addition of PSM – meh. Centre lock – another meh. You do get double the downforce on the gen 2, so when above 130mph I’m sure it will make a small difference (they don’t produce much anyway).

For your £30k, you could undertake Demon’s 10k refresh, and still be 20k better off. So how does Gen 1 look like such poor value? New diff, shocks re done, brake refurb, new bushes, suspension arms, and other bits tidy up and 20k in your pocket vs a 3.8 with nothing done to it and Bluetooth and you are 30k down. Yah sounds like a bargain smile

On your GT4 point, I’m not sold that it’s really a big threat to the 997 GT3 market. Your “compelling” case around warranty is also not correct, my gen 1 3.6 has full Porsche warranty thanks and that will continue until 2022 – which is plenty of comfort on that front. You brush not having a mezger off as a minor point, it’s not so minor though is it? Whilst the GT4s are nice, I saw a couple at Silverstone a few months back, they still don’t have the following or cache of a GT3, however wrong or right that is. Bit like the 30k delta of 3.6 vs 3.8 smile. If you are convinced where is your GT4? In fact where is your non-mezger GT car in your history since 2011? Got ya there mate smile

Just opening up the other side of the coin here, and agree with you on the market points.[/b]
And rightly so smile
A lot of what I said was based purely on personal preference. smile Having had a couple of Gen 1's I'd want to move on to something newer and improved. But I agree, 20hp isn't a huge difference, and wouldn't be the deciding factor in me purchasing a Gen 2 over a Gen 1.
I prefer the gearbox in the Gen 2, but then I never gelled with the 'boxes in either of my Gen 1's whether that was because they'd been abused or they were intrinsically poor (I've driven at least 5 Gen 1 GT3 RS's, all have had horrendous changes, 3 or 4 of them clearly as a result of abuse) I'm not sure.
But my lack of Mezger powered 911 in the garage currently stems from my finances being allocated elsewhere rather than the loss of a slavish addiction to Hans undoubted masterpiece biggrin

Your points regarding warranties are well made, however I've had mixed experiences with my GT cars. My 996 GT2 went in for a coolant leak, and ended up having all three radiators changed FOC, despite one clearly leaking as a result of impact damage from a stone.
My second Gen 1 997 GT3 was purchased off Swindon and had the usual rattly front suspension, it was returned and I accompanied their chief technician on an extended roadtest, I already knew the various issues with the front suspension (I was a grease monkey in a previous life) and mentioned what I thought the problems may be. The CT was in complete denial, and said there were no known issues with any of the components I'd suggested. Suffice to say they ended up replacing one top strut mount....

Upon collecting the car, I drove it home only to find the noise was still there. Now lacking faith in Swindon's abilities I took the car to my local OPC, and went out on roadtest with one of their technicians. The noise was duly noted and I left the car with them. As an aside, I asked for lift home (a 50 minute roundtrip) but was told no one was available to do so. As you can imagine, the whole process was starting to grate somewhat by now.

The following day I received a phonecall to say the car was stripped down, another worn strut top mountg was the culprit rolleyes and they weren't really sure why Swindon hadn't replaced both whilst they were "in there". It wasn't really a mystery to me, quite simply they're clearly a bunch of f*cking idiots.

My local OPC went on to say they'd contacted Porsche warranty/Mondial only to be told the top mount was a wear item (ahh yes, that old chestnut again), and that the parts labour to replace along with a geo would be £700 + vat. I wasn't quite apoplectic, but I was very close biggrin

A phonecall to Swindon (I've nothing better to do with my time) suggested I get my local OPC to ring them (Swindon) to enable them to give them the correct warranty claim code to claim for the worn top mount. And so it went on.

All the above left me thinking that I didn't really like the stance either OPC had taken, (especially Swindon as I'd bought the car off them) but also left me feeling I didn't like the corporate monster Porsche or indeed it's dealers/representatives had become. Accordingly I voted with my feet and decided that I'd return to my beloved 996's and indys would get my repair/servicing business from hereon.

I do like to improve/modify my cars, and thus having a warranty (for me) isn't the panacea it may be for others. Added to which, most of Demon's mythical £10K refresh is wear items/consumables, so a warranty on a 10 year old 997 GT3 is of little use unless something goes drastically wrong with the electrics, the engine, box or ABS (IMO). I'm not sure what a Porsche warranty runs to annually these days ? But I'd rather "risk it" and set the funds aside for a slush fund in the vent something did go horribly wrong.

Apologies for the lengthy response smile

S1MMA

2,378 posts

218 months

Monday 23rd January 2017
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Slippydiff said:
And rightly so smile
A lot of what I said was based purely on personal preference. smile Having had a couple of Gen 1's I'd want to move on to something newer and improved. But I agree, 20hp isn't a huge difference, and wouldn't be the deciding factor in me purchasing a Gen 2 over a Gen 1.
I prefer the gearbox in the Gen 2, but then I never gelled with the 'boxes in either of my Gen 1's whether that was because they'd been abused or they were intrinsically poor (I've driven at least 5 Gen 1 GT3 RS's, all have had horrendous changes, 3 or 4 of them clearly as a result of abuse) I'm not sure.
But my lack of Mezger powered 911 in the garage currently stems from my finances being allocated elsewhere rather than the loss of a slavish addiction to Hans undoubted masterpiece biggrin
I totally understand where you are coming from on this, yes newer means it has later tech on it and is further refined for it’s purpose. We all love a bit of Bluetooth and MP3 streaming, I have a fully loaded 7 series with all the toys for 90% of my driving – says it all. Coming out of a junction on Saturday morning in NW London onto Finchly road, I prodded the throttle lightly on the GT3 only to give traffic a display of my opposite lock skills sliding across the -1 degree road. Must have looked cool but PSM would have meant a lesser endowed amateur driving god wouldn’t have put it into a brick wall. So horses for courses.

Interesting point on the gearbox of the Gen 2, are you talking RS here? Because I’m not sure there is any difference in the gearbox of a non RS 3.6 gen 1 vs 3.8 gen2 (or even 7.1 RS either)? I have driven a few GT3s in the 997 range, and the gearshift has always been consistent and the same to me? Maybe the cars you drove had a hard life or conversely hadn’t loosened up yet? Mine always grumbles on the 2nd to 3rd shift when cold, it’s a peach when warm and has never given me a problem.

On the warranty side, everyone has a different experience depending on the problem. I’ve experienced OPCs in different countries and there is a common approach on some problems, not so common on others. I’ve had alternator, water pump, RMS (paid for parts for a new clutch also as box was coming out), FMS, radiator, 2 batteries, PCCB disc, driveshaft, interior bits sorted, new amp for the stereo and more over the years all done under warranty. But then I’ve had to pay £100 for a coolant hose that split, and £10 for a brake duct that came off over a speed bump. If I’d run without warranty last year I’d have a large bill for a PCCB disc that lost 3 retaining screws and scored the disc and hub. So it’s all about your averseness to risk on that. Come to think of it, with a suspension refresh I think I may have passed the Demon 10k refresh with all the bits I’ve had replaced! Wow lucky me.

But the point on GT4 vs 997.1 stands, that if you want the security of warranty, you can have it on both for at least the next 5 years.

Do I think in 10 years when none of the tech really matters (would have moved on again a couple of times) a gen 1 and gen 2 non-RS would have a similar % delta? Maybe by then all the collectors will want something more pure and bare, the tech would be laughable at that time, they prob would just want to turn it all off and see what an old raw battle-axe can do. Shame the 996 just doesn’t have the looks, which means a 997.1 GT3 is the most raw and better looking of the early GT3 brigade. RS will always command the highest value obviously, but don’t discount the 997.1 just yet.

Steve Rance

5,435 posts

230 months

Monday 23rd January 2017
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Lots of experience driving both the Gen 1 and Gen 2. Performance wise on track very little in it. I prefer the revvier 3.6 over the 3.8 but it's marginal. Based on that, for me value wise the gen 1 C/S was the Best Buy of the bunch which is why I ended up buying one.

I can understand why a buyer would prefer a Gen 2, its all subjective but based on a performance argument - which for me is what these cars are all about - the Gen 1 is a better £ for £ buy.

Edited by Steve Rance on Monday 23 January 20:16

lemmingjames

7,434 posts

203 months

Monday 23rd January 2017
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In 10 years time, i imagine the number of car enthusiast will dwindle and the next gen wont really care about the performance factor of the early GT3's. Its probably only up now as money is cheaper and cars are seen as investments

nigelonich

1,017 posts

219 months

Tuesday 24th January 2017
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Not sure why I have written this but this is how I see it as its still a free world (driven or owned most):

996.1 Comfort: The start of the bookend GT3 Story and in lots of respects the most collectible even in comfort for a change. Seems good value at £65k.
996.1 CS: The rarest GT3 model? As above but uber rare in factory CS spec. No idea how much one is worth as you don't see many for sale in RHD....
996.2 Comfort: A step forward on the 6.1 but its so track orientated why have a comfort 6.2? Expensive at £60k...
996.2 CS: I own one today and I am very happy with it but miserable as a daily. Seems good value at £65k.
996.2 RS: Never driven one but seem undervalued today at £140k and had an identical Top Gear lap time to the Challenge Stradale for £60k less.
997.1 Comfort: See 996.2 comfort. £80k seems expensive
997.1 CS: The pick of the 997.1 and worth. £90k today seems right to me based on the 996.2 CS value above.
997.1 RS: RS looks for CS performance as they are the same cars underneath. £145k today seems expensive.
997.2 Comfort: See 7.1 and 6.2 comforts. £90k seems expensive
997.2 CS: AWESOME. As long as these are cheaper than a 997.1 RS they are decent value. £120k today
997.2 RS: AWESOME +1 but out of reach now at £180k
997.2 RS 4.0L: AWESOME +2 but at over double a 7.2 RS its a 'starbucks car' at best. The bookend of the GT3 story.

So buy a 996.1 comfort/CS or 997.2 CS unless you are minted and buy them ALL!

Appendix:

991.1 Comfort: Goes great but engine disaster.
991.1 CS: Goes great but engine disaster.
991.1 RS: Numbers seem to be bank rolling VW diesel gate.

Harris_I

3,225 posts

258 months

Wednesday 25th January 2017
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Can someone explain to me why CS is considered so much more desirable than a comfort? Surely a comfort with bucket seats is practically the same thing. (Bar a couple of fripperies).


Harris_I

3,225 posts

258 months

Wednesday 25th January 2017
quotequote all
PS at £60k the overpriced 996.2 comfort is the cheapest on the list above. And only a few mods away from its sister Cup car wink

Mousem40

1,667 posts

216 months

Wednesday 25th January 2017
quotequote all
Harris_I said:
Can someone explain to me why CS is considered so much more desirable than a comfort? Surely a comfort with bucket seats is practically the same thing. (Bar a couple of fripperies).
Depends which model of CS, it may have a LWFW, it may have a cage (I remember most comforts had the cage added later by 996.2 owners) and a pair of buckets are not cheap. There may be lots of other disireable and expensive bits too.

Then you have rarity.

nigelonich

1,017 posts

219 months

Wednesday 25th January 2017
quotequote all
Harris_I said:
Can someone explain to me why CS is considered so much more desirable than a comfort? Surely a comfort with bucket seats is practically the same thing. (Bar a couple of fripperies).
Good questions.

I think id prefer a Nomex bucket CS over a leather comfort as when I am doing a track day I like to use the steering wheel just to steer the car and not to hang onto while my body slides between the door and the centre console :-). The CS also has the ability to have harness and the half cage although its probably just as dangerous for road use as it mitigates risk on the track

Are you aware of how much a set of OEM Nomex 997 'GT' seats that you'd find in a 997 CS or RS actually cost from Porsche? Id guess at £15k-£20k if they had them. Currently the CS premium is less than the cost of the parts used.

I see your points though.



Edited by nigelonich on Wednesday 25th January 17:56

Candellara

1,876 posts

181 months

Wednesday 25th January 2017
quotequote all
Cheib said:
On the wider market points the Arizona auctions over the weekend weren't great. Both 993 GT2's failed to sell and several other cars struggled.
"If you needed more proof that the so-called "upper-middle market" is indeed softening, look no further than the next two sales. Gooding & Company slid from $43 million last year to $33.3 million in 2017"

"the smart money is placing their assets elsewhere ahead of a massive collector-car market crash and everyone else is just too dumb to see it."

RM Sotheby's showed up in Arizona with a solid catalog, but apparently it wasn't what freshly exuberant muscle-heads with an extra $50,000-$100,000 to burn were looking for -- hence another substantial slide, from $62.8 million to $53.7 million, brought about by a precipitous drop in average sale price

Courtesy of Autoweek - Auction Results 2017

Cheib

23,113 posts

174 months

Wednesday 25th January 2017
quotequote all
Candellara said:
Cheib said:
On the wider market points the Arizona auctions over the weekend weren't great. Both 993 GT2's failed to sell and several other cars struggled.
"If you needed more proof that the so-called "upper-middle market" is indeed softening, look no further than the next two sales. Gooding & Company slid from $43 million last year to $33.3 million in 2017"

"the smart money is placing their assets elsewhere ahead of a massive collector-car market crash and everyone else is just too dumb to see it."

RM Sotheby's showed up in Arizona with a solid catalog, but apparently it wasn't what freshly exuberant muscle-heads with an extra $50,000-$100,000 to burn were looking for -- hence another substantial slide, from $62.8 million to $53.7 million, brought about by a precipitous drop in average sale price

Courtesy of Autoweek - Auction Results 2017
Full breakdown of the Arizona Porsche auction results here...lots sold below low estimate (which I read somewhere before were high). still UK GT3 market still seems to be in rude health....

http://flatsixes.com/cars/for-sale-cars/2017-scott...

Robbo66

3,828 posts

232 months

Wednesday 25th January 2017
quotequote all
Nicely, the good stuff is tucked away or sold way before auction.

Auction houses are not the barometer of the market, and a good deal of the material coming to auction is utter dross, chancers chancing their luck.

Harris_I

3,225 posts

258 months

Thursday 26th January 2017
quotequote all
Mousem40 said:
Depends which model of CS, it may have a LWFW, it may have a cage (I remember most comforts had the cage added later by 996.2 owners) and a pair of buckets are not cheap. There may be lots of other disireable and expensive bits too.

Then you have rarity.
Apart from the buckets which were often specced on comfort cars, the rest is cheap and easy to install in a comfort. It's the same car with a few extra option boxes ticked in a CS.