997.2 GT3 RS.....sensible buy at the moment?

[Yellow491]

Cheib said:

Candellara said:

Cheib said:

On the wider market points the Arizona auctions over the weekend weren't great. Both 993 GT2's failed to sell and several other cars struggled.

"If you needed more proof that the so-called "upper-middle market" is indeed softening, look no further than the next two sales. Gooding & Company slid from $43 million last year to $33.3 million in 2017"

"the smart money is placing their assets elsewhere ahead of a massive collector-car market crash and everyone else is just too dumb to see it."

RM Sotheby's showed up in Arizona with a solid catalog, but apparently it wasn't what freshly exuberant muscle-heads with an extra $50,000-$100,000 to burn were looking for -- hence another substantial slide, from $62.8 million to $53.7 million, brought about by a precipitous drop in average sale price

Courtesy of Autoweek - Auction Results 2017

Full breakdown of the Arizona Porsche auction results here...lots sold below low estimate (which I read somewhere before were high). still UK GT3 market still seems to be in rude health....

http://flatsixes.com/cars/for-sale-cars/2017-scott...

The auction houses, dont have a true reflection of the markets,all the good cars pass with out even being advertised
The gt2 had a harder life and not a collectors car for big bucks.
I

[hondansx]

I have a mate out in LA and he's been sending me links to GT3s and they are quite a chunk cheaper; there is a stunning Gen 2 RS for sale over there with a Porsche-supplied 4.0 conversion and it's cheaper than anything on the market over here.

I'm not so sure this is a reflection of global economics, i think it's more the news out about the the 991 Gen 2 being available as a manual. When you consider the 911R (i.e. essentially a manual GT3) is the best thing since sliced bread, the wider audience is going to care less about 996 and 997 GT3s.

I really want to get back into a 997 GT3, but i'm going to wait, as i'm confident they'll be back to the old pricing of a few years back post once the Gen 2 991 GT3 is officially revealed - presumably at Geneva.

The guy who just sold the mega miles GT3 that hit the PH headlines should be rightly very happy with himself.

[IMI A]

hondansx said:

I have a mate out in LA and he's been sending me links to GT3s and they are quite a chunk cheaper; there is a stunning Gen 2 RS for sale over there with a Porsche-supplied 4.0 conversion and it's cheaper than anything on the market over here.

I'm not so sure this is a reflection of global economics, i think it's more the news out about the the 991 Gen 2 being available as a manual. When you consider the 911R (i.e. essentially a manual GT3) is the best thing since sliced bread, the wider audience is going to care less about 996 and 997 GT3s.

I really want to get back into a 997 GT3, but i'm going to wait, as i'm confident they'll be back to the old pricing of a few years back post once the Gen 2 991 GT3 is officially revealed - presumably at Geneva.

The guy who just sold the mega miles GT3 that hit the PH headlines should be rightly very happy with himself.

Agree 100%. La la land pricing on 997 and 991 GT3 (RS) at the mo IMO.

Edited by IMI A on Thursday 26th January 13:39

[Fokker]

IMI A said:

Agree 100%. La la land pricing on 997 and 991 GT3 (RS) at the mo IMO.

Edited by IMI A on Thursday 26th January 13:39

The thing is though that if the 996 and 997 GT3's reduce to say £30/40k, that'll impact very severely on the 'normal' 911's making them basically worthless and having a massive effect on OPC's profits.
Do we really think that'll happen without a major economic crash? I don't think so. The economy grew again last year in the 4th Qtr by .6% in hard times. I appreciate that this year and the next 2/3 years might be slightly flat as the juggernaut slows a little but I don't see those cars halving in price.

The 991.2 GT3 either in manual or PDK form will be fetching in the region of £170 - 190k, certainly in the beginning on the used market depending on spec imo which leaves loads of room to the £80 - 120k 996 and 997 versions with a manual box. I think the 991.1 GT3 RS is about as low as you'll see it and will be bolstered by the incoming GT3 at above said value. I've been told that the next GT3 RS may well come with a manual gearbox to differentiate it from the 991.1 as they can't offer much more in the way of performance or technology to set it apart from the .1 version which will ensure that they hit the market at a nicely inflated price over list.

I may be wrong but thats how I see it.

[hondansx]

How will it? OPCs do not sell 996s.

Also, the older the GT3, the more extreme it is. There are many GTS and Turbo owners who could afford a GT3 who don't want a 'boyracer' or 'compromised' GT3.

It is silly to expect all 911s to always be worth a lot of money. These are just too many around.

[Steve Rance]

I think that the gearbox thing is missing the point. It's an analogue or digital question which is almost entirely chassis driven. A manual box in a 991 won't make it an analogue experience. Even with a manual box a 991 will be an entirely different driving experience. When you add this to the prices that standard C2 964 and 993's are making and compare them in terms of to the hardware that the GT3's have, I think that the 996/7 GT3 are still undervalued. The GT4 didn't bring down values of these cars and I doubt that a manual 991 will either.

Ultimately I think, it will boil down to the fact that if you want a proper analogue driving experience in years to come, there is a fixed supply resource. I won't go up and prices for them won't go down.

[IMI A]

Fokker said:

IMI A said:

Agree 100%. La la land pricing on 997 and 991 GT3 (RS) at the mo IMO.

Edited by IMI A on Thursday 26th January 13:39

The thing is though that if the 996 and 997 GT3's reduce to say £30/40k, that'll impact very severely on the 'normal' 911's making them basically worthless and having a massive effect on OPC's profits.
Do we really think that'll happen without a major economic crash? I don't think so. The economy grew again last year in the 4th Qtr by .6% in hard times. I appreciate that this year and the next 2/3 years might be slightly flat as the juggernaut slows a little but I don't see those cars halving in price.

The 991.2 GT3 either in manual or PDK form will be fetching in the region of £170 - 190k, certainly in the beginning on the used market depending on spec imo which leaves loads of room to the £80 - 120k 996 and 997 versions with a manual box. I think the 991.1 GT3 RS is about as low as you'll see it and will be bolstered by the incoming GT3 at above said value. I've been told that the next GT3 RS may well come with a manual gearbox to differentiate it from the 991.1 as they can't offer much more in the way of performance or technology to set it apart from the .1 version which will ensure that they hit the market at a nicely inflated price over list.

I may be wrong but thats how I see it.

Apologies in advance for long reply.

All cooking model 911 historically have settled at circa 10-15k GBP and remember even the fabled 72 RS were only 20k GBP cars for years and years not all that long ago and regularly crashed on track and then rebuilt. I understand those good old days are long gone but thats sort of how I still think of them.

Fairly dramatic price rises over the last few years across the board are a new phenomena and even more surprising for water cooled variants as they are plentiful in reasonable condition. For example Hexagon have a manual 997 C2s for 60k - thats nuts IMO even if its a manual and I like the guys at Hexagon.

To find rust free original panel air-cooled is much more difficult so I can understand why they are flying and will continue to do so for the right models in the right condition. For me these are the cars which hooked me and what Porsche was all about although my first Porsche was a 250bhp 944 turbo.

What we seem to see from dealers in the classifieds nowadays churning the same cars round and round amongst themselves and in particular those dealers who in the past knew little or nothing about Porsche is nothing short of a glorified ponzu scheme. There's an air cooled C4 cab in the classifieds at the moment and the right money for the car is maybe 40-50k if it really is as good as they say which I doubt. These cars which are put in storage for several years then brought out will always suffer issues from lack of use and or not being stored properly in dehumidified garages. Anyway back to the C4 cab it was up for sale for 75k GBP! Thats not far of double what the car is really worth IMO. I think its recently been reduced to 60k and they're saying it will be put back in storage if it doesn't sell soon. Felt like calling them as I like the idea of a cab for Summer high days but what really bothered me about the advert apart from the ridiculous price for a c4 cab is that they tell punters the cars a great investment. A run of the mill C4 cab thats been in the classifieds for approaching 1 year and not sold is a great investment? Really!

Re GT3 had a look at two mk 2 997 GT3s and both 20-30% overpriced but I tend to be one of those fools who generally looks at the most expensive used Porsches in the hope that one is cutting out the not so good cars. One private and one at a dealer. One of them needs a set of ceramics all round. It went in for a service recently and the owner couldn't even be bothered to ask the OPC to fix a worn rear arb bearing which would have cost literally peanuts to do in the grand scheme of things. Its really due a spark plug service but owner went for just an oil change. Hardly a loved car but I'd still buy that car at the right price as apart from the few bits I picked up it looks an original panel car. Its done only 6000 track miles and a good friend who knows the original owner well tells me the original millionaire owner and his son can both peddle (son is actually a racing driver) and its been driven to within an inch of its life but thats what these cars are meant for.

The second GT3 I viewed is up for 25-30k GBP more than OPCs and good Indys are charging for very similar cars. Nothing special about the spec and usual wear and tear stone chips to the paint work in usual places around front bumper , bonnet, front wings and on the paint above stone guards over circa 20,000 miles on a dark colour over 7 years of use hence the stone chips really show up on close inspection. Slight damage to the under tray but nothing untoward and original panel to my eye. No warranty. Again its due a spark plug service. The drivers seat bolster is heavily worn as the owner is a comfortable build. After viewing the car I offered exactly what an OPC would charge me for her with all the warranty, perfect showroom condition etc which is top top money.

Getting owners to deal at realistic prices is like trying to pull Megan Fox lol.

I think vendors feel well we don't need to sell and the market may well move north.

The other side of the coin is the smart money is just as happy to wait and see Brexit effect and there is no need to buy as potential buyers probably have a few other nice cars. Also the market is just as likely or maybe even more likely to move south for 997 GT3s and 991 GT3s with the new manual 991.2 GT3 around the corner and potential economic turmoil through the potential break up of the EEC. Also worth noting 996 GT3 were circa 35k-45k for quite a while in PH Classifieds and there was even a cat D 997 GT3 for 45k plus a lovely but heavily modded 996 GT3 RS for 55k just a few years ago. As others have alluded to GT3s are fairly compromised road car for most tastes. Time will tell and I agree the best Porsches are never even seen in the classifieds which are mostly full of very average cars.

[Fokker]

I hear what you're saying but I just don't see 996 and 997 GT3's depreciating to the levels you're saying again.
In a way I hope you're right as it'll allow me to get into about 3 of my choice cars at once and keep them for life!

2017 will be an interesting year for sure.

[IMI A]

Fokker said:

I hear what you're saying but I just don't see 996 and 997 GT3's depreciating to the levels you're saying again.
In a way I hope you're right as it'll allow me to get into about 3 of my choice cars at once and keep them for life!

2017 will be an interesting year for sure.

Yes I agree cannot see that happening unless various potential future duties on fossil fuelled vehicles makes them uneconomical to keep and run. Electric is the future I'm afraid. Also the true impact of Brexit will take 3-5 years to manifest itself. We could be dead by then so go and buy the cars now if you can get them at a fair price

[Dr S]

IMI A said:

...As others have alluded to GT3s are fairly compromised road car for most tastes...

An urban legend that just does not want to die... GT3s are prefectly usable - and an event - every day

[IMI A]

Dr S said:

IMI A said:

...As others have alluded to GT3s are fairly compromised road car for most tastes...

An urban legend that just does not want to die... GT3s are prefectly usable - and an event - every day

perhaps if you do not need to do 40-50 mile daily grind to and from London where at least 10 miles is stop start. Sure they get better as the GT3 gets newer from this perspective

[lemmingjames]

hondansx said:

How will it? OPCs do not sell 996s.

Also, the older the GT3, the more extreme it is. There are many GTS and Turbo owners who could afford a GT3 who don't want a 'boyracer' or 'compromised' GT3.

It is silly to expect all 911s to always be worth a lot of money. These are just too many around.

OPC's can sell 996's if they wish as theyve extended the warranty period to 15 years. Leicester spoke to me last year about if i wanted to sell mine

[lemmingjames]

you should tell Rogerere that who managed 180k in his 996'3 and 140k(?) in his 997.3

[GT4P]

A couple of pointers when a nice 996gt3 could be had for less than £40k a nice 997.1 gt3 circa £60k or a low miles 7gt2 for about £80k economic times were bad should have bought the gt2 but instead ended up with a new spyder with 17% discount of list!
In 2012 the arrival of the 991 and epas prices of 997.2 start to steady as owners not keen on trading up to a 991 ( same with 987.2 owners with arrival of 981 me being one of) and so on to the 991.2 arrival no more n/a 911 add to that a flat 4 cayster! I have said before if no gt4 I would be in a manual 9x7.2 my point being there are lot of Porsche fans who just didn't like the 9x1 and the situation has got worse with the arrival of 991.2.so lmho there will always be huge demand for earlier gt3s and manual 9x7.2 thus keeping good cars strong money. Now if the Porsche sports cars had remained hydrolic steering and the 991.1 gt3 was offered as a manual the second hand market for cooking Porsche would be a lot different than the one we have today!
Just to add the 9x7.2 prices are also helped by the previous chocolate m96/7 generation giving punters who want a reliable analogue non gt Porsche a 3 year window of cars (that were low in build numbers due to world economic downturn) in the last 18years of new P cars!

[isaldiri]

Steve Rance said:

I think that the gearbox thing is missing the point. It's an analogue or digital question which is almost entirely chassis driven. A manual box in a 991 won't make it an analogue experience. Even with a manual box a 991 will be an entirely different driving experience.

While I completely agree, I really do think that distinction of analogue/digital will be completely lost on the automotive press who will be united in hailing the .2gt3 as the best thing since sliced bread (and finally cured understeer in the gt3 yet again! ) and most likely most of the buying public as well. The number of people who simply want a manual box irrespective of the raft of electronic systems in the car imo far exceeds those who actually care about the analogue feel of the older car.

[jcosh]

Dr S said:

IMI A said:

...As others have alluded to GT3s are fairly compromised road car for most tastes...

An urban legend that just does not want to die... GT3s are perfectly usable - and an event - every day

The last GT3 I drove on the road was my 996RS. A great car, that I regret selling over 10 years ago. But it was awful on the road for anything other than getting to and from track days. I'm sure the later model are much better. My GT4 however, is great on the road and I will be touring Europe in it this year, something I wouldn't have even considered in the GT3. Time will tell how the GT4 compares on track, but I suspect it won't be much slower.

If the latest gen GT3's are as good as the GT4 on the road then they really have moved on and would be a far more useable ownership proposition.

[Slippydiff]

jcosh said:

The last GT3 I drove on the road was my 996RS. A great car, that I regret selling over 10 years ago. But it was awful on the road for anything other than getting to and from track days. I'm sure the later model are much better. My GT4 however, is great on the road and I will be touring Europe in it this year, something I wouldn't have even considered in the GT3. Time will tell how the GT4 compares on track, but I suspect it won't be much slower.

If the latest gen GT3's are as good as the GT4 on the road then they really have moved on and would be a far more useable ownership proposition.

Heretic alert ! ! !

[LaSource]

Slippydiff said:

jcosh said:

The last GT3 I drove on the road was my 996RS. A great car, that I regret selling over 10 years ago. But it was awful on the road for anything other than getting to and from track days. I'm sure the later model are much better. My GT4 however, is great on the road and I will be touring Europe in it this year, something I wouldn't have even considered in the GT3. Time will tell how the GT4 compares on track, but I suspect it won't be much slower.

If the latest gen GT3's are as good as the GT4 on the road then they really have moved on and would be a far more useable ownership proposition.

Heretic alert ! ! !

Hey! Perfectly useable for the school run
Off to Tesco's next...

[lemmingjames]

shame the owner cant park for st though isnt it :-P

[jcosh]

Slippydiff said:

jcosh said:

The last GT3 I drove on the road was my 996RS. A great car, that I regret selling over 10 years ago. But it was awful on the road for anything other than getting to and from track days. I'm sure the later model are much better. My GT4 however, is great on the road and I will be touring Europe in it this year, something I wouldn't have even considered in the GT3. Time will tell how the GT4 compares on track, but I suspect it won't be much slower.

If the latest gen GT3's are as good as the GT4 on the road then they really have moved on and would be a far more useable ownership proposition.

Heretic alert ! ! !

Blasphemy right!. I know it goes against the grain of the PH massive to not subscribe to the urban myths but there it is, 996GT3RS's are rubbish on the road! Don't buy them, as they are hugely disappointing and not worth their money.

I suspect there will now be a massive downward price correction...?











Hopefully, that will now allow me to buy my old one back at a price I can afford. I live in hope.