Fast Road Geo Settings for V8V-S
Discussion
Just over a month ago, after several years of owning 911s of various types, I bought my first ever Aston (a 2014 V8V SP10 manual). Whilst I'm thoroughly enjoying the new toy, there are a number of things I think can be improved, so I'm about to embark on a journey to personalise the car to my own liking.
Tomorrow morning, the car is off to Bamford Rose for their manifolds/cats/airbox/remap modification to add some extra performance. Once BR have worked their magic, the next change I want to make is to the car's suspension geometry to sharpen the handling a little.
At this stage, I don't want to change any suspension hardware, as the car is only for road use for now. I just want to improve the car's initial turn-in and to dial-out the 'safety-net' of slight understeer that's apparent in the car's factory setup.
Looking at the standard geo settings (from the FAQs on here - are those recommendations still current?) it would seem that additional front camber and a reduction in rear toe-in would be good starting points to achieve this. From past experience, I've found more front camber usually helps front-end bite on most cars (albeit within limits for road use - too much can lead to horrible tramlining) whilst reducing the rear toe-in generally helps the car to rotate as it turns-in, giving a generally more responsive feel.
I was hoping to find out if anyone else has experimented with different geo setups on the V8V-S and could comment on whether this would be a sensible way to go? I'll probably take the car to Chris Franklin (Center Gravity) as he's done some excellent work for me in the past. Whilst Chris is happy to experiment with different setups until we can find something that works well, it would certainly be beneficial if I could go to him with a known good starting point from which to begin to experiment!
Looking forward to hearing your comments, thoughts and advice.
Tomorrow morning, the car is off to Bamford Rose for their manifolds/cats/airbox/remap modification to add some extra performance. Once BR have worked their magic, the next change I want to make is to the car's suspension geometry to sharpen the handling a little.
At this stage, I don't want to change any suspension hardware, as the car is only for road use for now. I just want to improve the car's initial turn-in and to dial-out the 'safety-net' of slight understeer that's apparent in the car's factory setup.
Looking at the standard geo settings (from the FAQs on here - are those recommendations still current?) it would seem that additional front camber and a reduction in rear toe-in would be good starting points to achieve this. From past experience, I've found more front camber usually helps front-end bite on most cars (albeit within limits for road use - too much can lead to horrible tramlining) whilst reducing the rear toe-in generally helps the car to rotate as it turns-in, giving a generally more responsive feel.
I was hoping to find out if anyone else has experimented with different geo setups on the V8V-S and could comment on whether this would be a sensible way to go? I'll probably take the car to Chris Franklin (Center Gravity) as he's done some excellent work for me in the past. Whilst Chris is happy to experiment with different setups until we can find something that works well, it would certainly be beneficial if I could go to him with a known good starting point from which to begin to experiment!
Looking forward to hearing your comments, thoughts and advice.
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Sunday 21st August 16:23
Ian. Have you spoken to BR about this? I had a similar conversation with Adrian and discussed more neg camber on the front and a bit less on the back to balance things. They have a setup which was used on their race car.
Alternatively David Appelby have loads of race experience and settings which could be tweaked for fast road use.
Interested in what you finally end up with as its a path I'm on too.
Alternatively David Appelby have loads of race experience and settings which could be tweaked for fast road use.
Interested in what you finally end up with as its a path I'm on too.
And what relevance does that have? Ian clearly knows his onions when it comes to both driving and setting up a car and has a desire to adjust his car to suit his requirements. It staggers me that people feel the need to tell others what to do when all the OPs are after is advice on technical aspects, not opinions.
Ian, Martyn (J12MOC) is spot on and he also knows how to pedal a car, trust me. Give one of the 2 specialists mentioned a call, they will have existing setups or I sense that your geo man will very quickly get the results you desire. Good luck with it.
Ian, Martyn (J12MOC) is spot on and he also knows how to pedal a car, trust me. Give one of the 2 specialists mentioned a call, they will have existing setups or I sense that your geo man will very quickly get the results you desire. Good luck with it.
Impasse said:
It will be much cheaper and overall more beneficial to learn how to adjust your driving style to suit the car.
Not with mine it didn't. Admittedly was a standard V8V not an S, but couldn't get on with the standard setup at all, felt really vague. Had it adjusted for fast road setup and it transformed the car. Montana107 said:
When I lowered mine on coil overs - I went plus 1 degree negative camber and slightly more toe out in front from the stock recommendation. It certainly improves street responsiveness but still has a slight push on track.
I will be interested to see others results.
Hope this helps!
Interesting that you got better turn in by adding toe in, I would have expected the opposite effect as more toe in usually makes a car more stable in a straight line but less sharp to turn?I will be interested to see others results.
Hope this helps!
J12MOC said:
Ian. Have you spoken to BR about this? I had a similar conversation with Adrian and discussed more neg camber on the front and a bit less on the back to balance things. They have a setup which was used on their race car.
Alternatively David Appelby have loads of race experience and settings which could be tweaked for fast road use.
Interested in what you finally end up with as its a path I'm on too.
Strangely enough, that's exactly what I've just done!Alternatively David Appelby have loads of race experience and settings which could be tweaked for fast road use.
Interested in what you finally end up with as its a path I'm on too.
I dropped my car off at BR earlier and (amongst other things) discussed geo with Mike. One thing I hadn't thought of, regarding suspension setup, was diff settings and Mike told me the key to getting these cars to rotate properly into a corner is more about the diff settings, at the rear, than changes to the suspension geometry. He also confirmed that additional front camber was useful in getting the front to turn more responsively.
As BR obviously know what they're talking about, I've asked them to put their 'fast-road' geo on the car for me (including their recommended diff settings) whilst the car's with them. Mike clearly doesn't want to give away the exact settings they use, but he assures me the result will neutralise the mild understeer that Aston's 'play-it-safe' (Mike's words) factory settings bestow on the car.
I'll let everyone know how effective BR's chassis changes have been (good, bad or otherwise) once I've collected the car later this week.
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Monday 22 August 16:04
Ian_UK1 said:
Strangely enough, that's exactly what I've just done!
I dropped my car off at BR earlier and (amongst other things) discussed geo with Mike. One thing I hadn't thought of, regarding suspension setup, was diff settings and Mike told be the key to getting these cars to rotate properly into a corner is more about the diff settings, at the rear, than changes to the suspension geometry. He also confirmed that additional front camber was useful in getting the front to turn more responsively.
As BR obviously know what they're talking about, I've asked them to put their 'fast-road' geo on the car for me (including their recommended diff settings) whilst the car's with them. Mike clearly doesn't want to give away the exact settings they use, but he assures me the result will neutralise the mild understeer that Aston's 'play-it-safe' (Mike's words) factory settings bestow on the car.
I'll let everyone know how effective BR's chassis changes have been (good, bad or otherwise) once I've collected the car later this week.
Mike will not let it leave Halford until you are 100% happy I dropped my car off at BR earlier and (amongst other things) discussed geo with Mike. One thing I hadn't thought of, regarding suspension setup, was diff settings and Mike told be the key to getting these cars to rotate properly into a corner is more about the diff settings, at the rear, than changes to the suspension geometry. He also confirmed that additional front camber was useful in getting the front to turn more responsively.
As BR obviously know what they're talking about, I've asked them to put their 'fast-road' geo on the car for me (including their recommended diff settings) whilst the car's with them. Mike clearly doesn't want to give away the exact settings they use, but he assures me the result will neutralise the mild understeer that Aston's 'play-it-safe' (Mike's words) factory settings bestow on the car.
I'll let everyone know how effective BR's chassis changes have been (good, bad or otherwise) once I've collected the car later this week.
Impasse said:
It will be much cheaper and overall more beneficial to learn how to adjust your driving style to suit the car.
Interesting comment.....If by this you mean that, for the most part, driver training trumps chassis changes, then I'd not want to disagree with you. Whilst I could never claim to have anything like the skill set of even a journeyman professional driver, the time I spent being coached by Don Palmer at Bruntingthorpe still made a massive difference (albeit from a lowly starting point) to a) my ability to listen to the messages a car is trying to communicate to me and b) how to react to them to control a car, relatively safely, up-to and beyond the limit. Had I not taken the time (and expense - Brunters is very hard on brakes and tyres!) to try to improve my driving skills, I agree that chassis changes would probably have been wasted on me. I might have felt 'a difference' but I wouldn't have really known how to interpret it or exploit it.
As an aside, one thing getting some professional coaching really did highlight was how little I really knew before making the decision to learn. Like most 'untrained' road drivers, I genuinely thought, my abilities were 'above average'. (It's a logical/statistical absurdity that apparently 90% of drivers believe they're 'above average'). The truth was that I actually knew SFA about really driving a car quickly and effectively. My starting point was, TBH, somewhere between hopeless and incompetent! Thankfully, so Don told me, that is the norm rather than the exception and realising I needed to forget more-or-less everything I thought I knew was the key to moving forward.
So back to the Aston - yes, I could drive around the 'play-it-safe' setup, but that reduces the enjoyment of the car when it can easily be changed to respond in a more neutral way. It's always better to work with the car than against it.
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Tuesday 23 August 08:49
Simon T said:
Montana107 said:
When I lowered mine on coil overs - I went plus 1 degree negative camber and slightly more toe out in front from the stock recommendation. It certainly improves street responsiveness but still has a slight push on track.
I will be interested to see others results.
Hope this helps!
Interesting that you got better turn in by adding toe in, I would have expected the opposite effect as more toe in usually makes a car more stable in a straight line but less sharp to turn?I will be interested to see others results.
Hope this helps!
Ian_UK1 said:
As BR obviously know what they're talking about, I've asked them to put their 'fast-road' geo on the car for me (including their recommended diff settings) whilst the car's with them.
As time goes on owners are starting to realise that Mike and Adrian and the team at BR know an awful lot about Aston Martins.Edited by Ian_UK1 on Monday 22 August 16:04
HBradley said:
Ian,
I'm driving a V8VS & would be interested to hear how the geometry tweaks BR have made improve (or otherwise) the handling of the car?
Unfortunately, this has become a little more complicated since I opened this topic. Like some other SP10 owners, I've just been disappointed to discover that the suspension fitted as standard to the car isn't the 'S' suspension at all - despite the SP10 being sold as a Vantage S special edition and being badged Vantage S - it is, in fact, the stock, comfort, Vantage suspension. I'm driving a V8VS & would be interested to hear how the geometry tweaks BR have made improve (or otherwise) the handling of the car?
What this means in practice is the car is a lot less direct than an 'S'. The turn-in, irrespective of what's done to the geo, will never be anywhere close to a car fitted with proper 'S' spring/damper units. Apart from rendering the car far less capable than it should be (something that really pi**es me off, as it will cost a lot to rectify) it also means that any changes or improvements a different setup makes on my car won't translate to the 'S'. The same geo on an 'S' would affect it differently, due to the higher spring rates and different damper calibration.
That said, Mike, Adrian and team at BR found many inconsistencies in my car's suspension geometry - the ride heights (and consequently corner-weights) front and rear overall toe, rear thrust angle (unequal rear toe) and front/rear cambers were all over the place. Correcting these discrepancies and changing the settings to a 'secret' (they wouldn't give their settings away) 'fast road' setup has made a big difference to the car - albeit within the context of what's possible with the 'comedy' suspension fitted to the car! As a result of BR's changes the car is sharper & more planted with better turn-in, better steering feel and a more progressive response in-corner. A shame it's all way below the levels achieved in the 'S'.
The only way to get my car to handle properly is to buy 'S' suspension from Aston (including the huge Aston tax) go aftermarket with Nitrons, KW v3 or similar, or consider BR's switchable Bilstein setup. Once fitted and aligned, it's somewhere between £3500 and £5500 I shouldn't need to spend. Thanks Aston Martin. Maybe I should have stuck with Porsche.
Ian_UK1 said:
HBradley said:
Ian,
I'm driving a V8VS & would be interested to hear how the geometry tweaks BR have made improve (or otherwise) the handling of the car?
Unfortunately, this has become a little more complicated since I opened this topic. Like some other SP10 owners, I've just been disappointed to discover that the suspension fitted as standard to the car isn't the 'S' suspension at all - despite the SP10 being sold as a Vantage S special edition and being badged Vantage S - it is, in fact, the stock, comfort, Vantage suspension. I'm driving a V8VS & would be interested to hear how the geometry tweaks BR have made improve (or otherwise) the handling of the car?
What this means in practice is the car is a lot less direct than an 'S'. The turn-in, irrespective of what's done to the geo, will never be anywhere close to a car fitted with proper 'S' spring/damper units. Apart from rendering the car far less capable than it should be (something that really pi**es me off, as it will cost a lot to rectify) it also means that any changes or improvements a different setup makes on my car won't translate to the 'S'. The same geo on an 'S' would affect it differently, due to the higher spring rates and different damper calibration.
That said, Mike, Adrian and team at BR found many inconsistencies in my car's suspension geometry - the ride heights (and consequently corner-weights) front and rear overall toe, rear thrust angle (unequal rear toe) and front/rear cambers were all over the place. Correcting these discrepancies and changing the settings to a 'secret' (they wouldn't give their settings away) 'fast road' setup has made a big difference to the car - albeit within the context of what's possible with the 'comedy' suspension fitted to the car! As a result of BR's changes the car is sharper & more planted with better turn-in, better steering feel and a more progressive response in-corner. A shame it's all way below the levels achieved in the 'S'.
The only way to get my car to handle properly is to buy 'S' suspension from Aston (including the huge Aston tax) go aftermarket with Nitrons, KW v3 or similar, or consider BR's switchable Bilstein setup. Once fitted and aligned, it's somewhere between £3500 and £5500 I shouldn't need to spend. Thanks Aston Martin. Maybe I should have stuck with Porsche.
https://www.astonmartin.com/en/media-centre/press-...
As this does not seem to be the case for your car I would be asking how they intend to correct the issue. The only possible unknown here would be if there was an option to spec the car with comfort suspension but then you would expect the car to be sold on as such.
Where did you buy from? AM dealership, independant or private?
To be fair to Aston Martin all of the SP10 marketing material I have clearly states Sports Suspension as an option for the SP10 (Coupe)
So basically when buying the SP10 new if you wanted Sports Suspension then you had to specify it. It was a £995 option on the standard Vantage, not sure if there was a cost on the SP10 or if it was a no cost option. I suspect many dealers did not know this and hence most SP10 Coupes likely arrived as Comfort.
On the normal Vantage S, Sports Suspension was standard but you could specify Comfort as a no cost option (and a fair few owners who use their cars daily on s
t roads may have wished they had - ironic given the OP's complaint here).
Note the above applies to Coupes only. On the normal Vantage S (AND standard Vantage) Roadster you could only get Sports Suspension and there was no option to fit Comfort.
It has remained a mystery what was fitted to SP10 Roadsters but whatever it was there was no option to change it. We might assume Sports was fitted for consistency across the range.
Clear as mud?
So basically when buying the SP10 new if you wanted Sports Suspension then you had to specify it. It was a £995 option on the standard Vantage, not sure if there was a cost on the SP10 or if it was a no cost option. I suspect many dealers did not know this and hence most SP10 Coupes likely arrived as Comfort.
On the normal Vantage S, Sports Suspension was standard but you could specify Comfort as a no cost option (and a fair few owners who use their cars daily on s
t roads may have wished they had - ironic given the OP's complaint here).Note the above applies to Coupes only. On the normal Vantage S (AND standard Vantage) Roadster you could only get Sports Suspension and there was no option to fit Comfort.
It has remained a mystery what was fitted to SP10 Roadsters but whatever it was there was no option to change it. We might assume Sports was fitted for consistency across the range.
Clear as mud?
J12KJR said:
I think in your position I would be having a discussion with Aston Martin direct, a quick google search of vantage SP10 brings up the press release from AM (link below) which clearly states that the SP10 is a V8S with tweaks.
https://www.astonmartin.com/en/media-centre/press-...
As this does not seem to be the case for your car I would be asking how they intend to correct the issue. The only possible unknown here would be if there was an option to spec the car with comfort suspension but then you would expect the car to be sold on as such.
Where did you buy from? AM dealership, independant or private?
And in fact again confirmed as an option on this very Press Releasehttps://www.astonmartin.com/en/media-centre/press-...
As this does not seem to be the case for your car I would be asking how they intend to correct the issue. The only possible unknown here would be if there was an option to spec the car with comfort suspension but then you would expect the car to be sold on as such.
Where did you buy from? AM dealership, independant or private?
"The high-fidelity sound can be enhanced further by choosing the 1000W Bang & Olufsen BeoSound Audio System as an optional extra. This and other additional equipment features, such as a reversing camera, sports suspension (on the Coupé only) or lightweight carbon seats, guarantee even higher levels of comfort and luxury."
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