Retrofitting Power Steering - what is the best option?
Discussion
I gave it a year, and around town, especially on these narrow roads steering my pride and joy is more of a workout than a cruise.
Fitting a TVR one (if I can find one) from a scrappy may the easiest but it seems ridiculously expensive and leak prone.
So next, I can either go with a Subaru Impreza one, with a few mods, and connect this to a OEM belt driven pump and bottle, or alternatively connect it to either an electric pump from a 106/Saxo or one from an Astra.
Then there is the other option which is to leave the manual rack on the car, and replace the steering column with a modified one from a Corsa B.
Which option should I go for based on ease of installation, overall cost, and the final end result?
Fitting a TVR one (if I can find one) from a scrappy may the easiest but it seems ridiculously expensive and leak prone.
So next, I can either go with a Subaru Impreza one, with a few mods, and connect this to a OEM belt driven pump and bottle, or alternatively connect it to either an electric pump from a 106/Saxo or one from an Astra.
Then there is the other option which is to leave the manual rack on the car, and replace the steering column with a modified one from a Corsa B.
Which option should I go for based on ease of installation, overall cost, and the final end result?
I retro fitted a chim pas rack to a V8S using the peugeot citroen pump route.
Main notes if using TVR rack
You have to grind a bit of the steering mount on the chassis away to accommodate the rack - once at each mounting point to accommodate the larger rack and also to accommodate the large pinion housing. When you grind away the clearance for the pinion housing you will need to weld up the hole with clearance accounted for.
The PAS Chim chassis already has this done.
On the V8S (pre cat with V belts) the original pump is a non starter as it sits in the path of the exhaust.
I used the electric pump run with a big relay.
The steering column UJ needed to be shortened to fit - the UJ for the 2.9 S series fitted perfectly - not sure how that will work for you.
Drop me a PM if you need any info - the rack mounts will be a bugger to do using a TVR rack - I don't know if this applies to other options.
I do actually have a good TVR rack housing and track rods but the rack and pinion are scrap. Kiley Clinton where I had it looked at said it's usually the rack casing that's knackered on TVR's so if you can get another with serviceable rack and pinion you could go that route.
Main notes if using TVR rack
You have to grind a bit of the steering mount on the chassis away to accommodate the rack - once at each mounting point to accommodate the larger rack and also to accommodate the large pinion housing. When you grind away the clearance for the pinion housing you will need to weld up the hole with clearance accounted for.
The PAS Chim chassis already has this done.
On the V8S (pre cat with V belts) the original pump is a non starter as it sits in the path of the exhaust.
I used the electric pump run with a big relay.
The steering column UJ needed to be shortened to fit - the UJ for the 2.9 S series fitted perfectly - not sure how that will work for you.
Drop me a PM if you need any info - the rack mounts will be a bugger to do using a TVR rack - I don't know if this applies to other options.
I do actually have a good TVR rack housing and track rods but the rack and pinion are scrap. Kiley Clinton where I had it looked at said it's usually the rack casing that's knackered on TVR's so if you can get another with serviceable rack and pinion you could go that route.
Send it to Lloyds Specialist Developments for a Canems engine management upgrade, this will deliver better fuel economy, a crisper throttle response and improved reliability.
What's all that got to do with power steering I hear you say
Well, in addition to all the above benefits the Canems ECU has been designed to work with the speed sensitive Vauxhall Corsa electric power steering module. Lloyds offer a very professionally installed and Chimaera proven drivein/drive out conversion. Going electric eliminates the power sapping PS pump and because there's no fluid there's no risk of hydraulic leaks.
The system is also fully user adjustable to suit your liking and driving style, if I was in your position I'd definitely completely leapfrog an outdated hydraulic system and jump straight to the more modern and efficient speed sensitive electric option.
Dave.
What's all that got to do with power steering I hear you say
Well, in addition to all the above benefits the Canems ECU has been designed to work with the speed sensitive Vauxhall Corsa electric power steering module. Lloyds offer a very professionally installed and Chimaera proven drivein/drive out conversion. Going electric eliminates the power sapping PS pump and because there's no fluid there's no risk of hydraulic leaks.
The system is also fully user adjustable to suit your liking and driving style, if I was in your position I'd definitely completely leapfrog an outdated hydraulic system and jump straight to the more modern and efficient speed sensitive electric option.
Dave.
Barkychoc said:
You have to grind a bit of the steering mount on the chassis away to accommodate the rack - once at each mounting point to accommodate the larger rack and also to accommodate the large pinion housing. When you grind away the clearance for the pinion housing you will need to weld up the hole with clearance accounted for.
The PAS Chim chassis already has this done.
My old 4.6 was a none PS 4.0 originally and it had the cut out on the chassis requiring no mods.The PAS Chim chassis already has this done.
I also have 2 x original PS racks in the garage.
They both have a little play in them, OK for MOT but drove my OCD side nuts!
Scooby conversion is cheap, easy and parts plentiful.
Can probably be done for about £200.00, most of that for the new pipes.
jazzdude said:
To be honest, bolting a used Corsa B EPAS system to the car worries me. Even though a hydraulic system maybe older tech, if it goes wrong, it just leaks.
Having a motor attached to the steering column that could decide to turn the wheel if it goes wrong scares me.
Am I wrong?
Most electric ones I have seen usually have heavy steering when they fail. Sometimes when you turn one way it becomes very heavy but okay the other way. I haven't heard of one doing its own thing but there's always a first time. The heavy steering is worse than your car is now which catches out mainly lady drivers.Having a motor attached to the steering column that could decide to turn the wheel if it goes wrong scares me.
Am I wrong?
I only find my '94 non-power steering car to be a slight issue when turning out of the car port or backing it in. Seems fine at approximately 70 mph.
I have a corsa E-pas system installed on my peugeot 205 and I find it brilliant, much more compact and lighter than an hydraulic system.
I don't think there is an issue of the steering failing and turning the wheel when you don't want it to. I think almost all new cars use this system so there must be a fail safe in place.
I got Roger Hicks from power steering solution to make mine, it was a complete plug and play system with a fully refurbished corsa motor and controller. I sent him my steering rack and he sent it back a couple of weeks later finished.
It cost me £475 but prices may have changed since then.
https://www.facebook.com/electricpowersteering/
I don't think there is an issue of the steering failing and turning the wheel when you don't want it to. I think almost all new cars use this system so there must be a fail safe in place.
I got Roger Hicks from power steering solution to make mine, it was a complete plug and play system with a fully refurbished corsa motor and controller. I sent him my steering rack and he sent it back a couple of weeks later finished.
It cost me £475 but prices may have changed since then.
https://www.facebook.com/electricpowersteering/
Just about everything on the road uses electric power steering these days, why? because it's better in so many ways.
You only need power steering on a Chimaera below 30mph, above that you ideally want to switch it off, this is exactly what you get with electric power steering.
But what if it fails?
Well all that happens is it returns to a manual rack which will give you much easier steering than a hydraulic rack will if it chucks a belt, the electric motor just acts to assist to the manual rack which is a very mechanical arrangement, in effect it just gives the driver bigger biceps but only when he needs them.
What it can't and won't do it rip the steering from your hands and catapult you into the nearest wall. Electric power steering installed correctly is safe, adjustable and (with the right ECU) is speed sensitive which is exactly what you want, it also saves fuel and engine power.
Don't be afraid of new technology, especially when its been around for over 15 years and is totally proven
You only need power steering on a Chimaera below 30mph, above that you ideally want to switch it off, this is exactly what you get with electric power steering.
But what if it fails?
Well all that happens is it returns to a manual rack which will give you much easier steering than a hydraulic rack will if it chucks a belt, the electric motor just acts to assist to the manual rack which is a very mechanical arrangement, in effect it just gives the driver bigger biceps but only when he needs them.
What it can't and won't do it rip the steering from your hands and catapult you into the nearest wall. Electric power steering installed correctly is safe, adjustable and (with the right ECU) is speed sensitive which is exactly what you want, it also saves fuel and engine power.
Don't be afraid of new technology, especially when its been around for over 15 years and is totally proven
OK I have just had a look at some Corsa EPAS threads and I must admit I am interested.
I have studied the Subaru mod and think that it within my capabilities. How DIYable is the electric system?
The joining of the columns, I think a good machine shop can do that, but I am not clear about a full list of parts and details of how it is fixed to the pedal box.
Does anyone know of a detailed thread I could read and whether buying a complete column and boxes is achievable using those advertised on EBAY for about 100 -120 quid.
I also read that I may be able to buy an assembly thats ready to go one from a couple of specialists that some have spoken about but at over 1k seems very expensive, especially as the Subaru option is, like you said a couple of hundred.
I have studied the Subaru mod and think that it within my capabilities. How DIYable is the electric system?
The joining of the columns, I think a good machine shop can do that, but I am not clear about a full list of parts and details of how it is fixed to the pedal box.
Does anyone know of a detailed thread I could read and whether buying a complete column and boxes is achievable using those advertised on EBAY for about 100 -120 quid.
I also read that I may be able to buy an assembly thats ready to go one from a couple of specialists that some have spoken about but at over 1k seems very expensive, especially as the Subaru option is, like you said a couple of hundred.
ClassiChimi said:
I've driven Phazed car using the scooby rack and electric pump, very slightly lighter than the standard one. Very impressive
Just to clarify Phazed is slightly lighter than my standard Tvr PS RACK. it's so subtle it feels almost exactly the same as the Tvr PS rack and I enjoyed its use very much. Peter uses huge great massive tyres too
t myself most the time ClassiChimi said:
ClassiChimi said:
I've driven Phazed car using the scooby rack and electric pump, very slightly lighter than the standard one. Very impressive
Just to clarify Phazed is slightly lighter than my standard Tvr PS RACK. it's so subtle it feels almost exactly the same as the Tvr PS rack and I enjoyed its use very much. Peter uses huge great massive tyres too
The electric ones may be better but I dont like light at speed and 2 turns lock-to-lock!
TV8 said:
Hi OP, your car, money etc but have you tried a PS Chimaera? I have had both for several years and would struggle to recommend the TVR PS setup. The steering is too light and at close to two turns lock-to-lock, it is not as good to drive at speed as the non-ps set-up in my opinion.
The electric ones may be better but I dont like light at speed and 2 turns lock-to-lock!
Graham, you're a really nice bloke an all but you couldn't be more wrong! Manual racks are appalling..............The electric ones may be better but I dont like light at speed and 2 turns lock-to-lock!
jazzdude said:
ClassiChimi said:
Just to clarify Phazed is slightly lighter than my standard Tvr PS RACK.
it's so subtle it feels almost exactly the same as the Tvr PS rack and I enjoyed its use very much. Peter uses huge great massive tyres too
Do you happen to know what pump he was using? it's so subtle it feels almost exactly the same as the Tvr PS rack and I enjoyed its use very much. Peter uses huge great massive tyres too
phazed said:
TV8 said:
Hi OP, your car, money etc but have you tried a PS Chimaera? I have had both for several years and would struggle to recommend the TVR PS setup. The steering is too light and at close to two turns lock-to-lock, it is not as good to drive at speed as the non-ps set-up in my opinion.
The electric ones may be better but I dont like light at speed and 2 turns lock-to-lock!
Graham, you're a really nice bloke an all but you couldn't be more wrong! Manual racks are appalling..............The electric ones may be better but I dont like light at speed and 2 turns lock-to-lock!
If the OEM power steering on a Chim is similar to a Cerb then I'm with TV8 - far too light. ChimpOnGas said:
Just about everything on the road uses electric power steering these days, why? because it's better in so many ways.
But what if it fails?
Well all that happens is it returns to a manual rack which will give you much easier steering than a hydraulic rack will if it chucks a belt, the electric motor just acts to assist to the manual rack which is a very mechanical arrangement, in effect it just gives the driver bigger biceps but only when he needs them.
What it can't and won't do it rip the steering from your hands and catapult you into the nearest wall. Electric power steering installed correctly is safe
Don't be afraid of new technology, especially when its been around for over 15 years and is totally proven
Sorry old bean, but you are well off the mark here. They do fail. Fiat Puntos are common, and early Corsas. But the really bad installation is to be found in the Peugeot 207. A simple Google search will reveal hundreds of issues with this car - a manual rack with the electric motor attached.But what if it fails?
Well all that happens is it returns to a manual rack which will give you much easier steering than a hydraulic rack will if it chucks a belt, the electric motor just acts to assist to the manual rack which is a very mechanical arrangement, in effect it just gives the driver bigger biceps but only when he needs them.
What it can't and won't do it rip the steering from your hands and catapult you into the nearest wall. Electric power steering installed correctly is safe
Don't be afraid of new technology, especially when its been around for over 15 years and is totally proven
It wont rip the wheel from your hands but it will all but seize up on a roundabout and cause you to at least panic, at worst crash. It happens suddenly and without warning. We repaired one of these last month after a girl was scared to death by it and the repair was a new one.
When it has failed, turning the steering wheel even for a big strong lad like me
, is very, very difficult.'Totally proven' is a tad optimistic.
My mini Cooper s has electric steering and it has recently developed a problem.
As you are driving the steering goes rock hard. You can just about still steer the car but anyone with less strength would probably not be able to get it to the side of the road safely.
Quickly turning the car off and on again cures it but as this has started happening a bit more regularly it's going in to a sparky here who will take the system to bits and recondition it.
The subaru / electric pump setup seems to offer the best of both worlds where I understand that the pump shuts off when not needed (trw astra unit)
As you are driving the steering goes rock hard. You can just about still steer the car but anyone with less strength would probably not be able to get it to the side of the road safely.
Quickly turning the car off and on again cures it but as this has started happening a bit more regularly it's going in to a sparky here who will take the system to bits and recondition it.
The subaru / electric pump setup seems to offer the best of both worlds where I understand that the pump shuts off when not needed (trw astra unit)
To add some perspective to this I've done 250,000 miles on electric power steering without a single issue.
90% of all cars sold in the world today have electric power steering, we're talking bout annual production figures literally in the millions. In this age of litigation its perfectly reasonable to assume a safety critical element such steering is going to be extremely well tested before it's released to the general public.
Of course the failure of anything is possible, but I really don't think people should be afraid of electric power steering.
On the subject of power steering or no power steering on a Chimaera I have driven both and without any shadow of doubt I have to say (for me) the power steering system wins hands down.
As we know the TVR power rack can be problematic to rebuild which as far as I can tell is the sole driving force behind people seeking an alternative, this should not be confused with the TVR rack offering poor feel or performance when its in good health.
For me the TVR power rack gives fantastic feel, indeed it's one of the best elements of the car and significantly contributes to the tactile driving pleasure I get from my Chimaera. Of course it will eventually start leaking but when that day does come I hope I can have it rebuilt properly so I can enjoy another 20 years from it.
Until then I'll continue to give it regular fluid changes and new hoses every 7 years, it's hoses breaking down internally and contaminated fluid that kills power racks. Can those who condemn the TVR power rack as being of poor quality hand on heart say they looked after theirs properly with hose & regular fluid changes?
90% of all cars sold in the world today have electric power steering, we're talking bout annual production figures literally in the millions. In this age of litigation its perfectly reasonable to assume a safety critical element such steering is going to be extremely well tested before it's released to the general public.
Of course the failure of anything is possible, but I really don't think people should be afraid of electric power steering.
On the subject of power steering or no power steering on a Chimaera I have driven both and without any shadow of doubt I have to say (for me) the power steering system wins hands down.
As we know the TVR power rack can be problematic to rebuild which as far as I can tell is the sole driving force behind people seeking an alternative, this should not be confused with the TVR rack offering poor feel or performance when its in good health.
For me the TVR power rack gives fantastic feel, indeed it's one of the best elements of the car and significantly contributes to the tactile driving pleasure I get from my Chimaera. Of course it will eventually start leaking but when that day does come I hope I can have it rebuilt properly so I can enjoy another 20 years from it.
Until then I'll continue to give it regular fluid changes and new hoses every 7 years, it's hoses breaking down internally and contaminated fluid that kills power racks. Can those who condemn the TVR power rack as being of poor quality hand on heart say they looked after theirs properly with hose & regular fluid changes?
Gassing Station | Chimaera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff