RS 4.0 vs 991 R
Discussion
This year I bought a 997 RS 4.0, which I intend never to replace. Nevertheless I would be interested to hear from anyone who has ordered a 991 R – for the car rather than the investment – or has bought one second hand (why did you choose it over a 997 or 991 GT3 or RS?) or from anyone who has driven both cars (how do they compare?).
First world problems! While the R is a contemporary car I think it's very hard to be objective. It's a bit like "Top 100 Albums of All Time" list is always skewed to include albums released recently.
The more interesting comparison will be the R vs 991.2 GT3 if it comes with a manual box.
The more interesting comparison will be the R vs 991.2 GT3 if it comes with a manual box.
isaldiri said:
Twinfan said:
Can't remember where I read it, but someone has done a 4.0 vs 911 R review. They claimed the 4.0 was still the 'best' modern 911.
Bovingdon in evo a few issues ago i think.I can't quite get my head around a car that becomes more composed and less fun the harder you drive it. Normally crappy cars become less composed and good ones become more fun. Maybe it makes the R the ultimate road and track car (fun at moderate speeds on road, unshakeable grip on track), but I can't imagine not wanting to play with the limits of grip on the road.
To add to the confusion, Ollie Marriage (ex evo) writes in TopGear (11/16) that he thinks he'd prefer a 991 RS to the R on road and vice versa on track.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's an enigma!After a great drive up the Grossglockner Marriage says, 'And yet I wonder whether I'd have had an even better time in a [991] GT3 RS. There is something in that car's relentless focus and determination that I find utterly addictive.' Then he takes a similar line to evo: 'I go and drive the R some more. Not hard, just letting it flex itself, enjoying the flow. Now we're talking.' And later, 'The weird thing is that on road, where the R is targeted, I think I'd prefer the RS, while for track work, the R might well be the one.'
Cheib said:
First world problems! While the R is a contemporary car I think it's very hard to be objective. It's a bit like "Top 100 Albums of All Time" list is always skewed to include albums released recently.
The more interesting comparison will be the R vs 991.2 GT3 if it comes with a manual box.
It will also be interesting to see the effect on R prices if the new GT3 is a similarly good or better car. Do people really think that relative to the 997 4.0 the R is worth the 30% extra paid at Bonhams and asked in the lower-midrange of ads? Even ignoring the relative merits and place in Porsche history of the two cars, 50% more Rs were produced.The more interesting comparison will be the R vs 991.2 GT3 if it comes with a manual box.
I havent driven a 4.0, so quite happy to accept that it might be better (I certainly plan to find out at sone point).
However, I have done 700 miles in an R now, and it's brilliant. It is absolutely not planted on the road if you are pushing, and in fact I've done things with it that i haven't done since my Escort RS2000..!
One thing i've noticed is that on cambered country roads it's definitely better to stay away from sport suspension. I'm taking it on track next week after a few hundred more road miles, so will know more then, but it seems unlikely to be a disappointment.
To me, it is much more 'old school' and direct in feel than a 91RS, not just because of the manual box.
The noise is fantastic, especially with reduced sound deadening. I just don't think I've ever owned a better all round road car.
However, I have done 700 miles in an R now, and it's brilliant. It is absolutely not planted on the road if you are pushing, and in fact I've done things with it that i haven't done since my Escort RS2000..!
One thing i've noticed is that on cambered country roads it's definitely better to stay away from sport suspension. I'm taking it on track next week after a few hundred more road miles, so will know more then, but it seems unlikely to be a disappointment.
To me, it is much more 'old school' and direct in feel than a 91RS, not just because of the manual box.
The noise is fantastic, especially with reduced sound deadening. I just don't think I've ever owned a better all round road car.
footsoldier said:
One thing i've noticed is that on cambered country roads it's definitely better to stay away from sport suspension. I'm taking it on track next week after a few hundred more road miles, so will know more then, but it seems unlikely to be a disappointment.
To me, it is much more 'old school' and direct in feel than a 91RS, not just because of the manual box.
The noise is fantastic, especially with reduced sound deadening. I just don't think I've ever owned a better all round road car.
You must be on your first Porsche with the PASM system (actually doesn't the 918 have the same?) if you didn't realise sport suspension mode is utterly useless on the road here...To me, it is much more 'old school' and direct in feel than a 91RS, not just because of the manual box.
The noise is fantastic, especially with reduced sound deadening. I just don't think I've ever owned a better all round road car.
Interesting the R feels much more old school and direct than the RS though. It's essentially fed the same digital inputs for rws/epas/torque vectoring.. shows at some point programming might very well improve to the point there's little to no difference to a truly analogue car perhaps.
isaldiri said:
You must be on your first Porsche with the PASM system (actually doesn't the 918 have the same?) if you didn't realise sport suspension mode is utterly useless on the road here...
Interesting the R feels much more old school and direct than the RS though. It's essentially fed the same digital inputs for rws/epas/torque vectoring.. shows at some point programming might very well improve to the point there's little to no difference to a truly analogue car perhaps.
I always forget to switch it into sport (even on track) with 918, that's why i thought I should try it on the R!Interesting the R feels much more old school and direct than the RS though. It's essentially fed the same digital inputs for rws/epas/torque vectoring.. shows at some point programming might very well improve to the point there's little to no difference to a truly analogue car perhaps.
I think the RWS has ben re-calibrated for the R, and it is definitely less noticeable on the exits, but very good on turn-in. I like it - makes the car more agile, and feels smaller. The EPAS is lighter than non-assisted steering, but very direct, and instant feedback. I agree that the programming is getting better at covering up all the programming that's going on!
ABS still takes away finesse on the brakes, but guess we're stuck with that one.
Glad to hear Porsche hasn't lost the plot with the 911. If you've had pre-991s how does the steering compare to them? I had a GT4 and found the steering to be super-precise but a bit heavy and artificial feeling. Setting the rear ARB to stiff improved things considerably but while there was enough feel in the dry (though not 996/997 GT3 levels) there was none in the wet. The only way I felt able to test grip levels in the wet was to provoke the rear with power and then it was quite snappy.
Is the R's handling tuned mainly with programming or mainly with suspension geometry and stiffness?
Is the R's handling tuned mainly with programming or mainly with suspension geometry and stiffness?
isaldiri said:
You must be on your first Porsche with the PASM system (actually doesn't the 918 have the same?) if you didn't realise sport suspension mode is utterly useless on the road here...
Interesting the R feels much more old school and direct than the RS though. It's essentially fed the same digital inputs for rws/epas/torque vectoring.. shows at some point programming might very well improve to the point there's little to no difference to a truly analogue car perhaps.
Not sure about that my Dear Old ThingInteresting the R feels much more old school and direct than the RS though. It's essentially fed the same digital inputs for rws/epas/torque vectoring.. shows at some point programming might very well improve to the point there's little to no difference to a truly analogue car perhaps.
I think the R is a better road car the the 4.0RS. I adored the latter, but on B-roads I found the rear suspension just a tad too stiff. I ran lower pressures which helped, but I always felt the 3.8RS was more finely resolved for road driving. On track of the course the 4.0RS was just sensational; but most of my driving is done on the public road.
The R doesn't quite have the steering feel of the 4.0RS, but it has a level of agility and damping control that's in another league. The gearbox is better too - when you get a double de-clutch just right the feeling of gears meshing like a life through hot butter is delicious in your palm. And, heaven forfend, I actually think the new R motor is more characterful (with the single mass flywheel) than the old Mezger 4.0. (Time will tell if it is as robust...)
My 4.0RS (the Mexico blue one) was sold to fund the 918, so I can't do a back to back now, but if I was able to, I really do think I'd vote for the R. And as a Mezger fanatic, I didn't expect that. The R really is that good.
The R doesn't quite have the steering feel of the 4.0RS, but it has a level of agility and damping control that's in another league. The gearbox is better too - when you get a double de-clutch just right the feeling of gears meshing like a life through hot butter is delicious in your palm. And, heaven forfend, I actually think the new R motor is more characterful (with the single mass flywheel) than the old Mezger 4.0. (Time will tell if it is as robust...)
My 4.0RS (the Mexico blue one) was sold to fund the 918, so I can't do a back to back now, but if I was able to, I really do think I'd vote for the R. And as a Mezger fanatic, I didn't expect that. The R really is that good.
I've never been a fan of any RS (996 on) as a road car (not least because of the wings, cage etc). In contrast, I'm finding it hard to imagine what will top the R on the road, given what's coming next. (Turbos, etc)
The engine, I'd agree, is the biggest surprise, and the noise is in another league to the 991RS. Your are only ever seconds away from getting some great sound effects, it doesn't have to be flat out (although that adds even miore). Slightly annoying that rev counter red line is above the point where limiter kicks in, and I'd prefer a real handbrake which would suit the car more.
Overall though, I can't get enough of it at the moment!
The engine, I'd agree, is the biggest surprise, and the noise is in another league to the 991RS. Your are only ever seconds away from getting some great sound effects, it doesn't have to be flat out (although that adds even miore). Slightly annoying that rev counter red line is above the point where limiter kicks in, and I'd prefer a real handbrake which would suit the car more.
Overall though, I can't get enough of it at the moment!
Edited by footsoldier on Saturday 5th November 09:37
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