RS 4.0 vs 991 R

[Cheib]

Porsche911R said:

GarageQueen said:

My fear is that once the GT3 range returns to manual again starting with the 991.2, everything else will soften including 4.0.

I have no such fear, can only be a good thing.

I can't remember the last time I even saw a RHD 4.0 RS advertised! I think most people that own them have them down as a "keeper" and don't need to worry about what they're worth.

[turbofreeFLAT6]

isaldiri said:

Are you sure about those numbers for the R? that's an incredibly low final drive and that would mean the R has even longer gears than the GT4 (even comparing at similar revs) and that can't be right.

Here's the link, so unless Porsche made a typo...

http://press.porsche.com/vehicles/2016/2016_911_R_...

[turbofreeFLAT6]

GarageQueen said:

My fear is that once the GT3 range returns to manual again starting with the 991.2, everything else will soften including 4.0.

I think the 4.0 has it's position cemented in history as the last and greatest 997/Metzger/hydraulic steering/analogue 911 and only 600 were made. The 991.2 is still early in the next chapter, like the 996.2 version of the 996/7 platform and it will be built in much greater numbers than the 4.0.

4.0 prices remain about double the 997.2 RS (3.8) and more again than the 997.2 GT3, which are both around the likely new prices for the 991.2 GT3 and RS (at least in Europe, where I have been following the market) so I can't see the 991.2 making much difference.

In line with what Cheib said, my 4.0 is definitely a keeper and I suspect most cars in the hands of speculators were flushed out by the market correction a year ago.

[johnint]

At an unscientific glance Flat 6 has it right. Smaller rear wheel/ tyre on R compared to RS , same ratio say second gear, significantly longer final drive on R , Apollo indicates over 15% difference in max speed ( slightly different revs ? Power) so it all adds up. Interesting that it hasn't been picked up on. Probably because both cars set up near perfectly considering all factors and desired feel.
Recall 991 RS has shorter final drive than 991 GT3. Now checked as 4.19.

Edited by johnint on Thursday 17th November 05:17

Edited by johnint on Thursday 17th November 05:52

[johnint]

turbofreeFLAT6 said:

Just been looking at gearing (including tyre diameter) for the 991 R. It has a really tall final drive giving overall ratios about 28% longer than the RS 4.0 and 991 GT3 & RS. So how does it do 0-100km/h in 3.8 sec compared to 3.9 sec for the RS 4.0? It just cracks 100km/h in 1st gear! Strange that the tests haven’t commented on it given how they all caned the GT4 (and rightly so) for its high gearing and even it is about 4% lower than the R. To the contrary Chris Harris said he was surprised how much faster the R felt in-gear compared to the 991 RS.

This makes sense then. The 4.0 has to take a gear change before 100kph but will perform quite differently , especially through the first three gears.

[isaldiri]

johnint said:

At an unscientific glance Flat 6 has it right. Smaller rear wheel/ tyre on R compared to RS , same ratio say second gear, significantly longer final drive on R , Apollo indicates over 15% difference in max speed ( slightly different revs ? Power) so it all adds up. Interesting that it hasn't been picked up on. Probably because both cars set up near perfectly considering all factors and desired feel.
Recall 991 RS has shorter final drive than 991 GT3. Now checked as 4.19.

Edited by johnint on Thursday 17th November 05:17

Edited by johnint on Thursday 17th November 05:52

The RS final drive was corrected for the larger tyre diameter vs the gt3. The effective gearing is the same in theory with the same speeds. I'm a bit surprised at apolo having a different top speed in 2nd gear tbh but unfortunately I don't have a rs on hand to bounce off 2nd gear to test...

I still find the final drive of the R as listed in the technical document hard to believe at 3.09. Assuming my maths is right that's a 93mph top speed in 2nd gear and I'm sure I read somewhere that the R does 87mph or something (higher than the gt4 due to the higher rev limit).

[Porsche911R]

here are the RS 4.0 in gear speeds with a 0-100 mph time of 8 seconds dead tested and 3.6 tested to 60mph.
and that magic torque figure the 4.0 does is 339lb/ft at 5750 rpm

1st 44mph
2nd 75
3rd 104
4th 132
5th 160
6th 193

that's at 8500 rpm.

the 991 GT3 PDK speeds are at 9k revs and are as follows:

1st 49mph
2nd 77
3rd 107
4th 137
5th 165
6th 191


Now the older gen 2 GT3 which people say are fine and I think are stupid are as follows:

1st 50 mph
2nd 85
3rd 116
4th 148
5th 180
6th 193

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 17th November 11:39

[johnint]

isaldiri said:

The RS final drive was corrected for the larger tyre diameter vs the gt3. The effective gearing is the same in theory with the same speeds. I'm a bit surprised at apolo having a different top speed in 2nd gear tbh but unfortunately I don't have a rs on hand to bounce off 2nd gear to test...

I still find the final drive of the R as listed in the technical document hard to believe at 3.09. Assuming my maths is right that's a 93mph top speed in 2nd gear and I'm sure I read somewhere that the R does 87mph or something (higher than the gt4 due to the higher rev limit).

That's my understanding, although was surprised to see a.22 shortening to the RS which may make it a little shorter geared despite huge wheel and more sidewall. 4.0 to 991 GT3 is only 0.9 shorter.
Recall Apollo was comparing second gear speeds 991RS to R. He says 74 mph for R but maybe he had to look through the windscreen at the last moment! R must be relatively long geared to go through 100kph in first.

[Porsche911R]

I thought the R was just using the 991 GT3 gears from the PDK box for the first 4 gears, ie no new parts so to speak.
but the R does not rev to 9k like the GT3 so if you look at the figures I posted, max in gear speeds should be a bit lower than the 991 GT3 PDK speeds.

which would make it just about cock on with the RS 4.0 car.

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 17th November 12:02

[johnint]

Porsche911R said:

here are the RS 4.0 in gear speeds with a 0-100 mph time of 8 seconds dead tested.
and that magic torque figure the 4.0 does is 339lb/ft at 5750 rpm

1st 44mph
2nd 75
3rd 104
4th 132
5th 160
6th 193

that's at 8500 rpm.

Thanks. So confirms Flat 6's thinking about the 0-60 times / gearing. He identifies a huge difference between the cars which also throws light on the PDK/ manual transmission debate. The R well set up for relatively low downforce, and not an overly demanding amount of gear changes making good use of huge power/ torque. GT cars well set up for track high downforce(esp.RS)
With PDK to handle more / quicker gear changes . Also,of course , not over fussy on the road where you don't have to make multiple manual gear changes. A manual .2 GT3 would have very different gearing to an R , arguably a bigger difference in the nature of the car than that between PDK / manual which is generally considered purely in terms of operation.Flat 6
has identified why GT cars moved to PDK. Not to say a reversion to manual isn't possible but better suited to the R concept.

Edited by johnint on Thursday 17th November 12:35

[johnint]

Porsche911R said:

I thought the R was just using the 991 GT3 gears from the PDK box for the first 4 gears, ie no new parts so to speak.
but the R does not rev to 9k like the GT3 so if you look at the figures I posted, max in gear speeds should be a bit lower than the 991 GT3 PDK speeds.

which would make it just about cock on with the RS 4.0 car.

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 17th November 12:02

As I understand, the gear ratios 1-4 are the same for R, GT3 /RS 991 , but the final drives are very different., over 30% shorter in the RS. So the R reaches a significantly higher speed in each of these gears. Interesting to compare to the GT 3 which you found too long geared. It looks as though it is not a problem for the R ,however,because of the strength of the engine.

[turbofreeFLAT6]

Thanks for those maximum in-gear speeds Porsche911R. You don't have any for the R?

I read on another PH thread that the 991 GT3 and RS gear ratios are the same but the final drive of the RS is shorter to compensate for the 21" rear wheels, giving the same overall ratios.

I, like everyone else find it hard to believe there could be such a difference in the final drive of the R. Ignoring the 50kg weight advantage of the R, the ratio would give the R 22% less in-gear acceleration than the 991 RS (or the RS 28% more) yet Chris Harris reckons the R feels to have noticeably more than the RS. Can an R owner here see if the owner's manual lists the ratios to confirm those in the Porsche data sheet?

Why does the R, which is supposed to have the same motor as the RS, have a rev limit 300rpm lower (8,500 vs 8,800)?

[Porsche911R]

turbofreeFLAT6 said:

Thanks for those maximum in-gear speeds Porsche911R. You don't have any for the R?

nope I have no 991 RS or R data sheets with that info :-(

so far the 997.2 RS 4.0 looks the best on paper drive, lower ratio's, + more torque at lower peak revs.

Funny they keep lowering ratio's which I have said for 10 years is a big issue in these cars !!!

lets hope it carries on to future GT4 models

Ferrari 458 is so fun to drive with paddles vs Porkers because you are up and down the paddles like crazy, it's quite fun.

458 in gear speeds are night and day over a porker, but make interesting reading, but mores the point make you feel more connected to the drive/car.

1st 47mph
2nd 65
3rd 88
4th 111
5th 139
6th 171
7th 203

you are maxing out in 4th at 111 mph where the GT3 997.2 has still not maxed out in 3rd !!!

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 17th November 12:53

[johnint]

turbofreeFLAT6 said:

Thanks for those maximum in-gear speeds Porsche911R. You don't have any for the R?

I read on another PH thread that the 991 GT3 and RS gear ratios are the same but the final drive of the RS is shorter to compensate for the 21" rear wheels, giving the same overall ratios.

I, like everyone else find it hard to believe there could be such a difference in the final drive of the R. Ignoring the 50kg weight advantage of the R, the ratio would give the R 22% less in-gear acceleration than the 991 RS (or the RS 28% more) yet Chris Harris reckons the R feels to have noticeably more than the RS. Can an R owner here see if the owner's manual lists the ratios to confirm those in the Porsche data sheet?

Why does the R, which is supposed to have the same motor as the RS, have a rev limit 300rpm lower (8,500 vs 8,800)?

Maybe because different air intake set up. I think a considerable amount of response to the R is because of its subjective characteristics ( which is a good thing) one of which is the idea of more power. Only conjecture on my part I haven't driven one. Interesting to double check your figure however.

[turbofreeFLAT6]

Porsche911R said:

so far the 997.2 RS 4.0 looks the best on paper drive, lower ratio's, + more torque at lower peak revs.

The torque in the 997 4.0 certainly gets your attention. If you leave the Sport button off - the button opens exhaust flaps to boost low-rev torque (and noise) - so that rather than building in a linear fashion the torque arrives in a big hit at about 4,000rpm it feels like a turbo kicking in (but with a very non-turbo big hit of induction and exhaust bark).

[johnint]

Porsche911R said:

nope I have no 991 RS or R data sheets with that info :-(

so far the 997.2 RS 4.0 looks the best on paper drive, lower ratio's, + more torque at lower peak revs.

Funny they keep lowering ratio's which I have said for 10 years is a big issue in these cars !!!

lets hope it carries on to future GT4 models

Ferrari 458 is so fun to drive with paddles vs Porkers because you are up and down the paddles like crazy, it's quite fun.

458 in gear speeds are night and day over a porker, but make interesting reading, but mores the point make you feel more connected to the drive/car.

1st 47mph
2nd 65
3rd 88
4th 111
5th 139
6th 171
7th 203


you are maxing out in 4th at 111 mph where the GT3 997.2 has still not maxed out in 3rd !!!

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 17th November 12:53

Much shorter than991 GT3 and why PDK was chosen.

[Porsche911R]

turbofreeFLAT6 said:

The torque in the 997 4.0 certainly gets your attention. If you leave the Sport button off - the button opens exhaust flaps to boost low-rev torque (and noise) - so that rather than building in a linear fashion the torque arrives in a big hit at about 4,000rpm it feels like a turbo kicking in (but with a very non-turbo big hit of induction and exhaust bark).

Sounds about perfect :-) well bar a sharkwerks 4.1 :-)

[isaldiri]

johnint said:

That's my understanding, although was surprised to see a.22 shortening to the RS which may make it a little shorter geared despite huge wheel and more sidewall. 4.0 to 991 GT3 is only 0.9 shorter.
Recall Apollo was comparing second gear speeds 991RS to R. He says 74 mph for R but maybe he had to look through the windscreen at the last moment! R must be relatively long geared to go through 100kph in first.

Unless my maths is wonky.. the tyre diameter difference on the RS corresponds pretty much exactly to the final drive difference at ~5%? 4.18 RS final drive vs 3.97 and the tyre diameter of a 325/30/21 vs a 305/30/20 tyre is more or less that.

[johnint]

isaldiri said:

Unless my maths is wonky.. the tyre diameter difference on the RS corresponds pretty much exactly to the final drive difference at ~5%? 4.18 RS final drive vs 3.97 and the tyre diameter of a 325/30/21 vs a 305/30/20 tyre is more or less that.

You are dead right. Tried to find gear ratios for RS without success. Sure they are exactly the same as 991 GT3. Interesting anyway. Suits the GT cars and the longer gearing suits the R.

[martinday]

turbofreeFLAT6 said:

isaldiri said:

Are you sure about those numbers for the R? that's an incredibly low final drive and that would mean the R has even longer gears than the GT4 (even comparing at similar revs) and that can't be right.

Here's the link, so unless Porsche made a typo...

http://press.porsche.com/vehicles/2016/2016_911_R_...

This youtube video shows a 991R being launched :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA8eqCPgZe8

at 44 seconds into the video the car is at 6k revs and is doing about 51kph so 8.5k revs would give 72kph = 45mph so nowhere near cracking 100kph in first