997.1 GT3 - Good Choice?
Discussion
Steve Rance said:
A friend has a nicely modified GT4 which has the DSC plug and play PASM unit fitted. I followed the car around Silverstone while I was bedding in some discs and pads. The damping control looked extremely impressive. I think that combined with a geo, cup/guards diff and decent tyres a Gen 1 997 would be a fantastic car - even when judged by contemporary standards. The same mods to a gen 2 would also make a similar difference. These mods are relatively inexpensive and would create an even more engaging drive bringing the 997 GT3 a long way forward and perhaps offering a car that was a practical a daily proposition as a 991 but with a much more engaging character.
I have noticed the chat about the DSC boxes to improve the PASM. Most of the commentary is from the US. Are there many UK users? I'm interested in whether there are any downsides or foibles or set up aggro. It looks like only Parr sell them over here. Their website says POA, anyone know the price?
Porsche911R said:
Keep to topic, point out any errors in my postand talk about it, don't be a dick !
Errors in your post ? It may have escaped you, but the OP's thread asks about the Gen 1 997 GT3, NOT about whether the GT4 is a suitable alternative.Yet again YOU have needlessly derailed a GT3 thread. Yet again YOU don't appreciate YOU' VE done so, and yet again YOU'RE totally incapable of appreciating it's YOU who's the TROLL on this forum.
Irrespective of whether or not you're dyslexic David (and for the record, I am) it doesn't give you the right to derail pretty much EVERY GT3 thread, but also post in what most on here consider to be a rude, obnoxious and generally unpleasant manner, or indeed to generally behave like a spoilt brat who can't get over the fact that just because he didn't enjoy his toy, others can't/shouldn't either.
If you dislike it on here so much, just do everyone else a simply massive favour and stop posting on here once and for all. But failing that, "stop being a dick", and stop posting your all too often facile opinions on GT3 threads, as FWIW nobody gives them ANY credence whatsoever anyway.
Mousem40 said:
If I have to hear about that bloody refresh again! I put a detailed post up years ago totally debunking your £10k estimate, and pretty much halving the actual cost involved, priced getting all the things you go on about ad nauseum fixed at a respected Indy.
Stop scaremongering. Not all GT3s are run on a shoestring and dumped on the second hand market for the next unsuspecting, non-inspection having owner to be lumbered with a hypothetical £10k bill. Contrary to your belief GT3 owners, have to be able to afford to track these things in order to rag them to a state requiring a non-existent £10k refresh. Do you know how much it costs to do track days? Therefore you might understand that GT3 owners may be able to scrape a few pennies together to pay for the upkeep of their cars and actually treat them well. These aren't old beaten up 924s rebuilt by wheeler dealers.
All four dampers can be rebuilt to as new for around £500. Top mounts are cheap.
A GT4 is not a toss of a coin decision on a 7.1 GT3, they are very different cars, I personally wouldn't consider the former over the latter for many reasons (and I love the Cayman R). You bought a GT4, good for you, I think everyone and their uncle knows that's what you did, stop trashing GT3s with bunkum numbers. Rant over, 6/10 need to try better next time etc
Thank you, I could not agree more!Stop scaremongering. Not all GT3s are run on a shoestring and dumped on the second hand market for the next unsuspecting, non-inspection having owner to be lumbered with a hypothetical £10k bill. Contrary to your belief GT3 owners, have to be able to afford to track these things in order to rag them to a state requiring a non-existent £10k refresh. Do you know how much it costs to do track days? Therefore you might understand that GT3 owners may be able to scrape a few pennies together to pay for the upkeep of their cars and actually treat them well. These aren't old beaten up 924s rebuilt by wheeler dealers.
All four dampers can be rebuilt to as new for around £500. Top mounts are cheap.
A GT4 is not a toss of a coin decision on a 7.1 GT3, they are very different cars, I personally wouldn't consider the former over the latter for many reasons (and I love the Cayman R). You bought a GT4, good for you, I think everyone and their uncle knows that's what you did, stop trashing GT3s with bunkum numbers. Rant over, 6/10 need to try better next time etc
However, when somebody says something enough times they tend to believe it themselves.
I think it's termed delusional
jimmyslr said:
I have noticed the chat about the DSC boxes to improve the PASM. Most of the commentary is from the US. Are there many UK users? I'm interested in whether there are any downsides or foibles or set up aggro.
It looks like only Parr sell them over here. Their website says POA, anyone know the price?
£1100 or thereabouts if I recall correctly, can't remember if it's vat inclusive. Pricing is somewhat fx dependent though. I'd be tempted to try to order it direct from the US personally as it's about $1200 especially if someone could pick it up for you while there. It looks like only Parr sell them over here. Their website says POA, anyone know the price?
isaldiri said:
jimmyslr said:
I have noticed the chat about the DSC boxes to improve the PASM. Most of the commentary is from the US. Are there many UK users? I'm interested in whether there are any downsides or foibles or set up aggro.
It looks like only Parr sell them over here. Their website says POA, anyone know the price?
£1100 or thereabouts if I recall correctly, can't remember if it's vat inclusive. Pricing is somewhat fx dependent though. I'd be tempted to try to order it direct from the US personally as it's about $1200 especially if someone could pick it up for you while there. It looks like only Parr sell them over here. Their website says POA, anyone know the price?
jimmyslr said:
I have noticed the chat about the DSC boxes to improve the PASM. Most of the commentary is from the US. Are there many UK users? I'm interested in whether there are any downsides or foibles or set up aggro.
It looks like only Parr sell them over here. Their website says POA, anyone know the price?
Part of my job is with damper control software such as this, so will try to explain.It looks like only Parr sell them over here. Their website says POA, anyone know the price?
The GT3 uses Bilstein Damptronic dampers, so inside the damper is a firm valve and a soft valve, with a solenoid inside that controls a slider that controls how much oil flows to the soft valve. So full firm is firm valve only, full soft is soft and firm valve working together.
With the system on the 997 it measures body motions using front and rear 3 axis accelerometers, so can react to lateral g, roll accels and front and rear vertical accels on each axle. Best explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoABlUT0RwQ
Now the slider can move to any position between soft and firm but the control software that Bilstein use, and Porsche had on the 997, only controls in 5 stages between soft and firm, and controls the axles in pairs, so no independent control. Also Sport mode adds a current offset, i.e. limiting the flow through the soft valve the whole time so the damper is firmer, and may only end up with 2 or 3 stages of damping.
More advanced software developed by other manufacturers takes into account what the driver does too, so when you press throttle and brake it pre-empts that an increase in damping force will be needed before the body motions develop. And they can do independent wheel control.
It sounds like the DSC box adds in this software control.
Things to be cautious of though vs claims - it's not active suspension, it's only reactive. The bump and rebound can never be controlled independently because that's not how Damptronic works. The dampers don't have more capability, it's only about when they produce force, they don't magically get firmer.
Lastly, if you unplug a damper the whole system fails full firm, so if that's not enough damping for you then no amount of software will help.
Very hard to say if you'll get £1100 worth of benefit.
Also worth noting that it's only with the 991.2 have Porsche finally caught up with their software control.
Technically the main differences between a 997.1 and a 997.2 are:
1) 3.6 vs 3.8l engine 415 vs 435 bhp, 298lb/ft@5500 vs 317lb/ft@6250
2) Introduction of PSM adopted from GT2
3) Introduction of Centre lock wheels (and resultant maintainance schedule)
4) Dynamic engine mount option
5) Better aero (110kg downforce at 300 km/h)
6) 30mm bigger front discs (380mm vs 350mm)
7) LED lights
8) Revised PCM
9) Introduction of Sport Chrono plus option
10) 235 front tyres vs 245, and 305 rears on both.
11) Front axle lift now an option
12) Redline moved from 7,400 to 7,500 with RPM max moving from 8,400 to 8,500 RPM
13) Polar moment of inertia dropped fly 5cm in 7.2 due to new wheel carrier design dialling out some understeer.
14) Bore and stroke moved from 100mm x 76.4mm to 102.7mm x 76.4mm
15) weight unchanged at 1395kg
16) track front and rear widened from 1486mm/1511 to 1497mm/1524
17) Rear bumper on 7.2 features a grilled opening to help vent engine heat
18) grills fitted as standard to front air ducts on 7.2
19) steel not aluminium liners used in 7.2 adding 3kg, but 7.2 engine weighs 1.8kg overall less due to other weight savings
20) front springs of 7.2 stiffer by 5NM
21) 7.2 feature 'softer' ARBs f/r of GT2 (25/23mm)
1) 3.6 vs 3.8l engine 415 vs 435 bhp, 298lb/ft@5500 vs 317lb/ft@6250
2) Introduction of PSM adopted from GT2
3) Introduction of Centre lock wheels (and resultant maintainance schedule)
4) Dynamic engine mount option
5) Better aero (110kg downforce at 300 km/h)
6) 30mm bigger front discs (380mm vs 350mm)
7) LED lights
8) Revised PCM
9) Introduction of Sport Chrono plus option
10) 235 front tyres vs 245, and 305 rears on both.
11) Front axle lift now an option
12) Redline moved from 7,400 to 7,500 with RPM max moving from 8,400 to 8,500 RPM
13) Polar moment of inertia dropped fly 5cm in 7.2 due to new wheel carrier design dialling out some understeer.
14) Bore and stroke moved from 100mm x 76.4mm to 102.7mm x 76.4mm
15) weight unchanged at 1395kg
16) track front and rear widened from 1486mm/1511 to 1497mm/1524
17) Rear bumper on 7.2 features a grilled opening to help vent engine heat
18) grills fitted as standard to front air ducts on 7.2
19) steel not aluminium liners used in 7.2 adding 3kg, but 7.2 engine weighs 1.8kg overall less due to other weight savings
20) front springs of 7.2 stiffer by 5NM
21) 7.2 feature 'softer' ARBs f/r of GT2 (25/23mm)
Edited by Mousem40 on Saturday 19th November 18:22
Thanks for that Pookster - really insightful explanation of whats actually happening inside the PASM damper which I did not fully understand. True to say the Bilsteins do not really allow you to get the most out of the DSC controller (although people say there is some benefit) - for that they suggest Tractive dampers which have a wider range of operation, and react quicker too if i'm not mistaken?
Mousem40 said:
Technically the main differences between a 997.1 and a 997.2 are:
1) 3.6 vs 3.8l engine 415 vs 435 bhp, 298lb/ft@5500 vs 317lb/ft@6250
2) Introduction of PSM
3) Introduction of Centre lock wheels (and resultant maintainance schedule)
4) Dynamic engine mount option
5) Better aero
6) 30mm bigger front discs (380mm vs 350mm)
7) LED lights
8) Revised PCM
9) Introduction of Sport Chrono plus option
10) 235 front tyres vs 245, and 305 vs 325 rears
11) Front axle lift now an option
Right on everything except the tyre sizes I think - not sure if you were referring to the RS or not - but standard GT3 tyre sizes are same for 997 gens 1 & 2 (ie 235 front, 305 rear). 1) 3.6 vs 3.8l engine 415 vs 435 bhp, 298lb/ft@5500 vs 317lb/ft@6250
2) Introduction of PSM
3) Introduction of Centre lock wheels (and resultant maintainance schedule)
4) Dynamic engine mount option
5) Better aero
6) 30mm bigger front discs (380mm vs 350mm)
7) LED lights
8) Revised PCM
9) Introduction of Sport Chrono plus option
10) 235 front tyres vs 245, and 305 vs 325 rears
11) Front axle lift now an option
Also if we're getting into the nitty gritty, as Steve Rance pointed out recently, various parameters were changed on the gen2's PASM system to help reduce understeer. I believe they lowered the polar moment of inertia with a new wheel carrier too with this goal in mind [courtesy Chris Harris vid below!]
https://youtu.be/45DWdH20Hmg
Edited by Fl0pp3r on Saturday 19th November 15:25
Mousem40 said:
Technically the main differences between a 997.1 and a 997.2 are:
1) 3.6 vs 3.8l engine 415 vs 435 bhp, 298lb/ft@5500 vs 317lb/ft@6250
2) Introduction of PSM
3) Introduction of Centre lock wheels (and resultant maintainance schedule)
4) Dynamic engine mount option
5) Better aero
6) 30mm bigger front discs (380mm vs 350mm)
7) LED lights
8) Revised PCM
9) Introduction of Sport Chrono plus option
10) 235 front tyres vs 245, and 305 vs 325 rears
11) Front axle lift now an option
Larger tyres only applicable for the RS.1) 3.6 vs 3.8l engine 415 vs 435 bhp, 298lb/ft@5500 vs 317lb/ft@6250
2) Introduction of PSM
3) Introduction of Centre lock wheels (and resultant maintainance schedule)
4) Dynamic engine mount option
5) Better aero
6) 30mm bigger front discs (380mm vs 350mm)
7) LED lights
8) Revised PCM
9) Introduction of Sport Chrono plus option
10) 235 front tyres vs 245, and 305 vs 325 rears
11) Front axle lift now an option
Pookster said:
...
Lastly, if you unplug a damper the whole system fails full firm, so if that's not enough damping for you then no amount of software will help.
...
Interesting, thanks. Lastly, if you unplug a damper the whole system fails full firm, so if that's not enough damping for you then no amount of software will help.
...
How easy is it, I wonder, to 'unplug' the dampers? A simple electric connector somewhere near each damper perhaps?
It sounds like that could be a good way for people like Mr Rance to judge the quality of the factory dampers in a state which is effectively passive? They might make the cars more transparent at the limit if the variable damping is disabled?
I have a .2 RS with the DSC box fitted. Not had a chance to try it on a circuit yet unfortunately, in fact on the road ive only used the car a couple of time since fitting. However, first impression on road use was pretty good. The ride quality is a lot more supple and a bit less crash bang, not that i thought the standard set up was that poor but its a very noticeable change but as soon as you get on the brakes you can really sense the front end resistance to dive, far more than normal, and body roll is reduced. Can't really get enough energy into the car on the road to really tell how its going to feel on a circbut but looking forward to finding out next year when the car comes out of winter hibernation...
Great explanation above about whats going on with PASM and how a more sophisticated controller can make quite a difference. Helped me understand it far better than the DSC marketing speil
. Another cool feature of the dsc is that you can tweak all the maps and share them about..
Great explanation above about whats going on with PASM and how a more sophisticated controller can make quite a difference. Helped me understand it far better than the DSC marketing speil
. Another cool feature of the dsc is that you can tweak all the maps and share them about..Thanks for the correction Flopp3r and isaldiri, I'll change it in my original post so it can be used as a reference without having to read lots of posts. I've also added a few other bits.
P.s OP I got most of my info from this magazine copy comparing all the manuals GT3 models, see of you can find a copy you may find it useful.
P.s OP I got most of my info from this magazine copy comparing all the manuals GT3 models, see of you can find a copy you may find it useful.
Pookster said:
Part of my job is with damper control software such as this, so will try to explain.
The GT3 uses Bilstein Damptronic dampers, so inside the damper is a firm valve and a soft valve, with a solenoid inside that controls a slider that controls how much oil flows to the soft valve. So full firm is firm valve only, full soft is soft and firm valve working together.
With the system on the 997 it measures body motions using front and rear 3 axis accelerometers, so can react to lateral g, roll accels and front and rear vertical accels on each axle. Best explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoABlUT0RwQ
Now the slider can move to any position between soft and firm but the control software that Bilstein use, and Porsche had on the 997, only controls in 5 stages between soft and firm, and controls the axles in pairs, so no independent control. Also Sport mode adds a current offset, i.e. limiting the flow through the soft valve the whole time so the damper is firmer, and may only end up with 2 or 3 stages of damping.
More advanced software developed by other manufacturers takes into account what the driver does too, so when you press throttle and brake it pre-empts that an increase in damping force will be needed before the body motions develop. And they can do independent wheel control.
It sounds like the DSC box adds in this software control.
Things to be cautious of though vs claims - it's not active suspension, it's only reactive. The bump and rebound can never be controlled independently because that's not how Damptronic works. The dampers don't have more capability, it's only about when they produce force, they don't magically get firmer.
Lastly, if you unplug a damper the whole system fails full firm, so if that's not enough damping for you then no amount of software will help.
Very hard to say if you'll get £1100 worth of benefit.
Also worth noting that it's only with the 991.2 have Porsche finally caught up with their software control.
What an interesting and informative post The GT3 uses Bilstein Damptronic dampers, so inside the damper is a firm valve and a soft valve, with a solenoid inside that controls a slider that controls how much oil flows to the soft valve. So full firm is firm valve only, full soft is soft and firm valve working together.
With the system on the 997 it measures body motions using front and rear 3 axis accelerometers, so can react to lateral g, roll accels and front and rear vertical accels on each axle. Best explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoABlUT0RwQ
Now the slider can move to any position between soft and firm but the control software that Bilstein use, and Porsche had on the 997, only controls in 5 stages between soft and firm, and controls the axles in pairs, so no independent control. Also Sport mode adds a current offset, i.e. limiting the flow through the soft valve the whole time so the damper is firmer, and may only end up with 2 or 3 stages of damping.
More advanced software developed by other manufacturers takes into account what the driver does too, so when you press throttle and brake it pre-empts that an increase in damping force will be needed before the body motions develop. And they can do independent wheel control.
It sounds like the DSC box adds in this software control.
Things to be cautious of though vs claims - it's not active suspension, it's only reactive. The bump and rebound can never be controlled independently because that's not how Damptronic works. The dampers don't have more capability, it's only about when they produce force, they don't magically get firmer.
Lastly, if you unplug a damper the whole system fails full firm, so if that's not enough damping for you then no amount of software will help.
Very hard to say if you'll get £1100 worth of benefit.
Also worth noting that it's only with the 991.2 have Porsche finally caught up with their software control.
Pookster said:
Part of my job is with damper control software such as this, so will try to explain.
The GT3 uses Bilstein Damptronic dampers, so inside the damper is a firm valve and a soft valve, with a solenoid inside that controls a slider that controls how much oil flows to the soft valve. So full firm is firm valve only, full soft is soft and firm valve working together.
With the system on the 997 it measures body motions using front and rear 3 axis accelerometers, so can react to lateral g, roll accels and front and rear vertical accels on each axle. Best explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoABlUT0RwQ
Now the slider can move to any position between soft and firm but the control software that Bilstein use, and Porsche had on the 997, only controls in 5 stages between soft and firm, and controls the axles in pairs, so no independent control. Also Sport mode adds a current offset, i.e. limiting the flow through the soft valve the whole time so the damper is firmer, and may only end up with 2 or 3 stages of damping.
More advanced software developed by other manufacturers takes into account what the driver does too, so when you press throttle and brake it pre-empts that an increase in damping force will be needed before the body motions develop. And they can do independent wheel control.
It sounds like the DSC box adds in this software control.
Things to be cautious of though vs claims - it's not active suspension, it's only reactive. The bump and rebound can never be controlled independently because that's not how Damptronic works. The dampers don't have more capability, it's only about when they produce force, they don't magically get firmer.
Lastly, if you unplug a damper the whole system fails full firm, so if that's not enough damping for you then no amount of software will help.
Very hard to say if you'll get £1100 worth of benefit.
Also worth noting that it's only with the 991.2 have Porsche finally caught up with their software control.
Excellent, clear and concise explanation, many thanks The GT3 uses Bilstein Damptronic dampers, so inside the damper is a firm valve and a soft valve, with a solenoid inside that controls a slider that controls how much oil flows to the soft valve. So full firm is firm valve only, full soft is soft and firm valve working together.
With the system on the 997 it measures body motions using front and rear 3 axis accelerometers, so can react to lateral g, roll accels and front and rear vertical accels on each axle. Best explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoABlUT0RwQ
Now the slider can move to any position between soft and firm but the control software that Bilstein use, and Porsche had on the 997, only controls in 5 stages between soft and firm, and controls the axles in pairs, so no independent control. Also Sport mode adds a current offset, i.e. limiting the flow through the soft valve the whole time so the damper is firmer, and may only end up with 2 or 3 stages of damping.
More advanced software developed by other manufacturers takes into account what the driver does too, so when you press throttle and brake it pre-empts that an increase in damping force will be needed before the body motions develop. And they can do independent wheel control.
It sounds like the DSC box adds in this software control.
Things to be cautious of though vs claims - it's not active suspension, it's only reactive. The bump and rebound can never be controlled independently because that's not how Damptronic works. The dampers don't have more capability, it's only about when they produce force, they don't magically get firmer.
Lastly, if you unplug a damper the whole system fails full firm, so if that's not enough damping for you then no amount of software will help.
Very hard to say if you'll get £1100 worth of benefit.
Also worth noting that it's only with the 991.2 have Porsche finally caught up with their software control.
Fl0pp3r said:
Thanks for that Pookster - really insightful explanation of whats actually happening inside the PASM damper which I did not fully understand. True to say the Bilsteins do not really allow you to get the most out of the DSC controller (although people say there is some benefit) - for that they suggest Tractive dampers which have a wider range of operation, and react quicker too if i'm not mistaken?
That all begins to sound somewhat expensive, if I were going to those lengths, I'd have to establish the cost of a set of custom sprung/valved Ohlins TTX's, JRZ's etc before committing to the Tractive DSC solution.But if the Tractive dampers and DSC can really give you the best of both worlds ie compliant roads set up and a pin sharp track set up, all at the push of button/change of custom map, all well and good.
Forgot to add about later generation software control.
In stead of five stages between soft and firm the solenoid controls to any position, i.e. any force between soft and firm can be chosen, and all 4 dampers independently.
I wouldn't have thought the DSC system does this as you have to fundamentally change the current and frequency modulation to the solenoid to get it to do this and control it accurately.
This is how 991.2 works.
In stead of five stages between soft and firm the solenoid controls to any position, i.e. any force between soft and firm can be chosen, and all 4 dampers independently.
I wouldn't have thought the DSC system does this as you have to fundamentally change the current and frequency modulation to the solenoid to get it to do this and control it accurately.
This is how 991.2 works.
Slippydiff said:
That all begins to sound somewhat expensive, if I were going to those lengths, I'd have to establish the cost of a set of custom sprung/valved Ohlins TTX's, JRZ's etc before committing to the Tractive DSC solution.
But if the Tractive dampers and DSC can really give you the best of both worlds ie compliant roads set up and a pin sharp track set up, all at the push of button/change of custom map, all well and good.
Agreed Slippy, this is the 10,000 dollar question - not far off the estimated cost of implementation actually i'd say ($1200 for ver1 module, $7-8000 for the Tractive DDA's, plus geo - must be close!). Which means about £8k at today's crummy rates. But if the Tractive dampers and DSC can really give you the best of both worlds ie compliant roads set up and a pin sharp track set up, all at the push of button/change of custom map, all well and good.
How much would you expect to pay for the Ohlins TTX or JRZ passive setup do you reckon? The only reason i'd hesitate going down the passive route, as you suggest, is I'd be in danger of losing that supple duality that makes the GT3 such a great road car / track car compromise.
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