997.1 GT3 - Good Choice?
Discussion
Fl0pp3r said:
Slippydiff said:
That all begins to sound somewhat expensive, if I were going to those lengths, I'd have to establish the cost of a set of custom sprung/valved Ohlins TTX's, JRZ's etc before committing to the Tractive DSC solution.
But if the Tractive dampers and DSC can really give you the best of both worlds ie compliant roads set up and a pin sharp track set up, all at the push of button/change of custom map, all well and good.
Agreed Slippy, this is the 10,000 dollar question - not far off the estimated cost of implementation actually i'd say ($1200 for ver1 module, $7-8000 for the Tractive DDA's, plus geo - must be close!). Which means about £8k at today's crummy rates. But if the Tractive dampers and DSC can really give you the best of both worlds ie compliant roads set up and a pin sharp track set up, all at the push of button/change of custom map, all well and good.
How much would you expect to pay for the Ohlins TTX or JRZ passive setup do you reckon? The only reason i'd hesitate going down the passive route, as you suggest, is I'd be in danger of losing that supple duality that makes the GT3 such a great road car / track car compromise.
Fair minded words on the passives gents - no argument with you in terms of that being the optimal solution in terms of outright control and performance, but i would still want to be sure I didn't end up with a GT3 I could only drive comfortably on track...
I guess it would depend how simply the Ohlins TTX or similar can be adjusted nowadays, and whether their settings can match PASM's normal/sport switchability - but i don't get the feeling it would be that way.
I think I'm right in saying most of the major sports car manufacturers have now gone adaptive/magnetorheological for their road-going but trackable cars - so what gives? Granted I'm sure there are plenty of good examples of passively suspended, roadgoing, highly trackable sports cars - but trend appears to be firmly adaptive doesn't it?
I guess there's only 2 ways to find out myself - try the DSC module first, then some good passives if that doesn't hit the mark.
I guess it would depend how simply the Ohlins TTX or similar can be adjusted nowadays, and whether their settings can match PASM's normal/sport switchability - but i don't get the feeling it would be that way.
I think I'm right in saying most of the major sports car manufacturers have now gone adaptive/magnetorheological for their road-going but trackable cars - so what gives? Granted I'm sure there are plenty of good examples of passively suspended, roadgoing, highly trackable sports cars - but trend appears to be firmly adaptive doesn't it?
I guess there's only 2 ways to find out myself - try the DSC module first, then some good passives if that doesn't hit the mark.
Thanks for this, loads to consider including the whole beginnings of active suspension which I hadn't realised!
Realised the cars in my profile were a decade out of date too so have done a quick update!
Anyway I have a couple of other questions. How impractical is the car without front nose lift, it won't be a daily driver but want to use it for European trips without worrying too much about ferries/hotel parking? Also noticed there was an example with rear seats for sale - I presume that isn't a normal option, not seen any others with it?
Realised the cars in my profile were a decade out of date too so have done a quick update!
Anyway I have a couple of other questions. How impractical is the car without front nose lift, it won't be a daily driver but want to use it for European trips without worrying too much about ferries/hotel parking? Also noticed there was an example with rear seats for sale - I presume that isn't a normal option, not seen any others with it?
Fl0pp3r said:
Fair minded words on the passives gents - no argument with you in terms of that being the optimal solution in terms of outright control and performance, but i would still want to be sure I didn't end up with a GT3 I could only drive comfortably on track...
I guess it would depend how simply the Ohlins TTX or similar can be adjusted nowadays, and whether their settings can match PASM's normal/sport switchability - but i don't get the feeling it would be that way.
I think I'm right in saying most of the major sports car manufacturers have now gone adaptive/magnetorheological for their road-going but trackable cars - so what gives? Granted I'm sure there are plenty of good examples of passively suspended, roadgoing, highly trackable sports cars - but trend appears to be firmly adaptive doesn't it?
I guess there's only 2 ways to find out myself - try the DSC module first, then some good passives if that doesn't hit the mark.
A set of custom/valved Ohlins TTX's will run to somewhere close to £7k.I guess it would depend how simply the Ohlins TTX or similar can be adjusted nowadays, and whether their settings can match PASM's normal/sport switchability - but i don't get the feeling it would be that way.
I think I'm right in saying most of the major sports car manufacturers have now gone adaptive/magnetorheological for their road-going but trackable cars - so what gives? Granted I'm sure there are plenty of good examples of passively suspended, roadgoing, highly trackable sports cars - but trend appears to be firmly adaptive doesn't it?
I guess there's only 2 ways to find out myself - try the DSC module first, then some good passives if that doesn't hit the mark.
I'm not convinced any active damper will be able to provide the quality of damping, be that high speed or low speed that a high end damper such as the Ohlins/JRZ or Motons can.
An ex-racer told me that Ohlins allow you to run the softest springs possible and rely on the superior damping qualities of the dampers to do the rest.
My experience of having Ohlins dampers custom sprung/valved is that most damper technicians want to use the stiffest springs possible. That's fine if the car is going to live on track, less so if the majority of the cars intended use is on the road.
My Ohlins approved damper technician laughed when I told him the spring rates I wanted to use, but the smile rapidly disappeared when I made it known I was completely serious in my intentions.
The end result (using spring rates as close to standard as possible) was THE most planted, stable 996 chassis I've ever experienced. In effect it removed the "911ness" from the car, no bobbing front end, simply MASSIVE stability even at high speeds over compressions and bumps, this allied to a quality of damping that the standard 996 or 997 GT3 dampers couldn't hope to replicate.
It was a time consuming and expensive business converting what were ex-996 GT3RS (the race car, not the 2004 road car) remote cannister Ohlins to fit my MK1 996 GT3, but the results and rewards were worth all the grief and heartache.
Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 26th November 22:27
gr8jon said:
Thanks for this, loads to consider including the whole beginnings of active suspension which I hadn't realised!
Realised the cars in my profile were a decade out of date too so have done a quick update!
Anyway I have a couple of other questions. How impractical is the car without front nose lift, it won't be a daily driver but want to use it for European trips without worrying too much about ferries/hotel parking? Also noticed there was an example with rear seats for sale - I presume that isn't a normal option, not seen any others with it?
The rear seats were never an option, but they were a possibility. This is only the case on the 997.1, not the .2. The .1 had a normal rear body shell, double skinned in the back seats I think, which meant that some owners decided to retrofit some skinny seats. My impression is that perhaps half a dozen people did this. It's worth checking the v5 and the insurance carefully I think to make sure the car is rated and recognised as a four seater. The .2 had a different rear body that was single skinned and so rear seats cannot be retrofitted as it's not strong enough. Realised the cars in my profile were a decade out of date too so have done a quick update!
Anyway I have a couple of other questions. How impractical is the car without front nose lift, it won't be a daily driver but want to use it for European trips without worrying too much about ferries/hotel parking? Also noticed there was an example with rear seats for sale - I presume that isn't a normal option, not seen any others with it?
There seem mixed views on lift. Neither my gt3 nor any other of my low cars have had lift and I've not struggled. Granted I don't drive in central London but I do go over speed bumps from time to time. I scrape the splitter on a couple of my cars once a month but it's light and that front edge is a consumable that can be replaced cheaply (not that I've needed to). I do take speed bumps and ramps at an angle and take it slowly, but that's it.
Slippydiff said:
A set of custom/valved Ohlins TTX's will run to somewhere close to £7k.
I'm not convinced any active damper will be able to provide the quality of damping, be that high speed or low speed that a high end damper such as the Ohlins/JRZ or Motons can.
An ex-racer told me that Ohlins allow you to run the softest springs possible and rely on the superior damping qualities of the dampers to do the rest.
My experience of having Ohlins dampers custom sprung/valved is that most damper technicians want to use the stiffest springs possible. That's fine if the car is going to live on track, less so if the majority of the cars intended use is on the road.
My Ohlins approved damper technician laughed when I told him the spring rates I wanted to use, but the smile rapidly disappeared when I made it known I was completely serious in my intentions.
The end result (using spring rates as close to standard as possible) was THE most planted, stable 996 chassis I've ever experienced. In effect it removed the "911ness" from the car, no bobbing front end, simply MASSIVE stability even at high speeds over compressions and bumps, this allied to a quality of damping that the standard 996 or 997 GT3 dampers couldn't hope to replicate.
It was a time consuming and expensive business converting what were ex-996 GT3RS (the race car, not the 2004 road car) remote cannister Ohlins to fit my MK1 996 GT3, but the results and rewards were worth all the grief and heartache.
Nice work Slippy! Was your Ohlins'd '3 still 'livable' on the road then in your opinion? Is the fact you can use the softer springs key to this?I'm not convinced any active damper will be able to provide the quality of damping, be that high speed or low speed that a high end damper such as the Ohlins/JRZ or Motons can.
An ex-racer told me that Ohlins allow you to run the softest springs possible and rely on the superior damping qualities of the dampers to do the rest.
My experience of having Ohlins dampers custom sprung/valved is that most damper technicians want to use the stiffest springs possible. That's fine if the car is going to live on track, less so if the majority of the cars intended use is on the road.
My Ohlins approved damper technician laughed when I told him the spring rates I wanted to use, but the smile rapidly disappeared when I made it known I was completely serious in my intentions.
The end result (using spring rates as close to standard as possible) was THE most planted, stable 996 chassis I've ever experienced. In effect it removed the "911ness" from the car, no bobbing front end, simply MASSIVE stability even at high speeds over compressions and bumps, this allied to a quality of damping that the standard 996 or 997 GT3 dampers couldn't hope to replicate.
It was a time consuming and expensive business converting what were ex-996 GT3RS (the race car, not the 2004 road car) remote cannister Ohlins to fit my MK1 996 GT3, but the results and rewards were worth all the grief and heartache.
Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 26th November 22:27
Fl0pp3r said:
Nice work Slippy! Was your Ohlins'd '3 still 'livable' on the road then in your opinion? Is the fact you can use the softer springs key to this?
I built the car specifically as a fast road car, no track use intended. It ran on the Ohlins along with MPS Cup 1 tyres, Cup rear toe links, Manthey K400 engine conversion, Alcons all round with Pagid RS 29's in 6 pot MK 2 front calipers.When the dampers were cold, the ride at slow speeds was best described as "jiggly", not harsh or unpleasant, just jiggly. With 30-45 minutes driving the dampers warmed through and the jiggliness went. In my opinion that initial jiggliness when cold was worthwhile living with, purely because the sheer quality of damping available once hot was quite simply almost other worldly, they were that good.
IIRC the TTX's valving incorporates some developments which will improve their low speed (road not frequency) response/ride further still. Alternatively if one of the UK's Ohlins distributors can formulate and build you a proper dual spring set up (rather than main and tender) you'll really be able to have your cake and eat it.
The trials and tribulations of the Ohlins fitment to my GT2 (owned prior to the GT3) can be found here : (best get a brew on)
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=104...
PM me if you should need further info.
exigepete said:
Will crawl back under my rock now before I am told my GT3 is worth about a fiver because it doesn't have bucket seats.....
Not so fast!Would genuinely like to know, what the drive of the .2 RS was like in comparission. I think the .2 aesthetics are 911 perferction, but they're such strong money. You seem to prefer the .1 non-Rs?
exigepete said:
997.1 GT3 is a great Porsche and I would consider a safe place to put money.
I have previously ran a 997.2 S and then a 997.2 GT3 RS.
Chopped the RS back in 2012 and bought a 997.1 GT3 and a Ferrari 355 Spider with the money I had tied up in the RS.
Absolutely love it, white with gloss black wheels and adaptive sports seats (Shock Horror!)
Much more subtle than RS which was Grey and Red.
I am not Walter Rohl so to be honest I do not think the RS is worth the premium.
To be honest the 997.1 feels more raw to me than the RS did.
I have previously ran a 997.2 S and then a 997.2 GT3 RS.
Chopped the RS back in 2012 and bought a 997.1 GT3 and a Ferrari 355 Spider with the money I had tied up in the RS.
Absolutely love it, white with gloss black wheels and adaptive sports seats (Shock Horror!)
Much more subtle than RS which was Grey and Red.
I am not Walter Rohl so to be honest I do not think the RS is worth the premium.
To be honest the 997.1 feels more raw to me than the RS did.
Thanks. Very interesting set of comparisons there!
exigepete said:
Depends what type of mileage you are going to be doing.
Not a lot, which is why I'm loathe to jump into trading up from my 996 turbo, to pay more for something I will (probably) use even less. The other issue is the turbo (mapped at 500+bhp) has spoiled me a bit, so as much as the throttle response and high-revving drama of the GT cars is something I am sure could hook me, I fear I might sorely miss the outright "wall of power" feeling. Others who've made the turbo-GT3 swap tend to say different, but I'm not entirely certain. Yet still...Slippydiff said:
I built the car specifically as a fast road car, no track use intended. It ran on the Ohlins along with MPS Cup 1 tyres, Cup rear toe links, Manthey K400 engine conversion, Alcons all round with Pagid RS 29's in 6 pot MK 2 front calipers.
When the dampers were cold, the ride at slow speeds was best described as "jiggly", not harsh or unpleasant, just jiggly. With 30-45 minutes driving the dampers warmed through and the jiggliness went. In my opinion that initial jiggliness when cold was worthwhile living with, purely because the sheer quality of damping available once hot was quite simply almost other worldly, they were that good.
IIRC the TTX's valving incorporates some developments which will improve their low speed (road not frequency) response/ride further still. Alternatively if one of the UK's Ohlins distributors can formulate and build you a proper dual spring set up (rather than main and tender) you'll really be able to have your cake and eat it.
The trials and tribulations of the Ohlins fitment to my GT2 (owned prior to the GT3) can be found here : (best get a brew on)
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=104...
PM me if you should need further info.
A properly set up 996 or 997 GT3 on well judged high end dampers is a thing of beauty to drive. Fair play to you for putting in the effort to get the result that you were looking for. I know how difficult it is to get thereWhen the dampers were cold, the ride at slow speeds was best described as "jiggly", not harsh or unpleasant, just jiggly. With 30-45 minutes driving the dampers warmed through and the jiggliness went. In my opinion that initial jiggliness when cold was worthwhile living with, purely because the sheer quality of damping available once hot was quite simply almost other worldly, they were that good.
IIRC the TTX's valving incorporates some developments which will improve their low speed (road not frequency) response/ride further still. Alternatively if one of the UK's Ohlins distributors can formulate and build you a proper dual spring set up (rather than main and tender) you'll really be able to have your cake and eat it.
The trials and tribulations of the Ohlins fitment to my GT2 (owned prior to the GT3) can be found here : (best get a brew on)
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=104...
PM me if you should need further info.
Steve Rance said:
Slippydiff said:
I built the car specifically as a fast road car, no track use intended. It ran on the Ohlins along with MPS Cup 1 tyres, Cup rear toe links, Manthey K400 engine conversion, Alcons all round with Pagid RS 29's in 6 pot MK 2 front calipers.
When the dampers were cold, the ride at slow speeds was best described as "jiggly", not harsh or unpleasant, just jiggly. With 30-45 minutes driving the dampers warmed through and the jiggliness went. In my opinion that initial jiggliness when cold was worthwhile living with, purely because the sheer quality of damping available once hot was quite simply almost other worldly, they were that good.
IIRC the TTX's valving incorporates some developments which will improve their low speed (road not frequency) response/ride further still. Alternatively if one of the UK's Ohlins distributors can formulate and build you a proper dual spring set up (rather than main and tender) you'll really be able to have your cake and eat it.
The trials and tribulations of the Ohlins fitment to my GT2 (owned prior to the GT3) can be found here : (best get a brew on)
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=104...
PM me if you should need further info.
A properly set up 996 or 997 GT3 on well judged high end dampers is a thing of beauty to drive. Fair play to you for putting in the effort to get the result that you were looking for. I know how difficult it is to get thereWhen the dampers were cold, the ride at slow speeds was best described as "jiggly", not harsh or unpleasant, just jiggly. With 30-45 minutes driving the dampers warmed through and the jiggliness went. In my opinion that initial jiggliness when cold was worthwhile living with, purely because the sheer quality of damping available once hot was quite simply almost other worldly, they were that good.
IIRC the TTX's valving incorporates some developments which will improve their low speed (road not frequency) response/ride further still. Alternatively if one of the UK's Ohlins distributors can formulate and build you a proper dual spring set up (rather than main and tender) you'll really be able to have your cake and eat it.
The trials and tribulations of the Ohlins fitment to my GT2 (owned prior to the GT3) can be found here : (best get a brew on)
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=104...
PM me if you should need further info.
Thinking of getting passives and a new diff this winter as (finally) accepted the car is a keeper
Mmmm ... i'd go to any team with a good working rknowledge of a high end damper. I think that tech 9 use Moton, Parr work with JRZ etc, there's Redline racing, JZM work with KW. Henry can point you in the direction of an Ohlin specialist etc.. there are a few companies out there that can help. What's important is that they have a good knowledge of their specialist damper and a proven set ups from soft to sharp. I'd definitely go for a thick piston separate gas reservoir unit with high end calving. There has been big leaps forward in damping control in recent years and a good damper and twin spring set up with give you lovely compliant slow speed damping control and superb high speed control also.
on another note regarding values. the Milan sothebys auction sold a white gt3 with 7k km on the clock for 145k€
http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/...
http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/...
MEZGER6 said:
on another note regarding values. the Milan sothebys auction sold a white gt3 with 7k km on the clock for 145k€
http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/...
Surprised it sold as it has comfort seats and no pictures of a striped rear carpet! http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote/lots/...
Steve Rance said:
For the diff I'd look at a guards upgrade kit or the kit that JZM offer which I believe offers some guards internals. I'm having a diff built for my 997 Gen1 by Guards as it's custom to my preference but the JZM kit is a very good compromise package.
Just back online after a couple of days - not being rude - thanks for the advice
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