ESSEX ENGINE OIL
Discussion
So what Engine Oil do you boys use in your Essex Engines.
Also would you use flushing Oil to give it a good clean inside.
Or is it possible to drop the sump with Engine in place to clean it out.
I imagine there's a lot of sludge in the bottom of the sump.
I think a normal multigrade something like a Uniflo 15/40 would be o.k.
Alan
Also would you use flushing Oil to give it a good clean inside.
Or is it possible to drop the sump with Engine in place to clean it out.
I imagine there's a lot of sludge in the bottom of the sump.
I think a normal multigrade something like a Uniflo 15/40 would be o.k.
Alan
plasticpig72 said:
is it possible to drop the sump with Engine in place to clean it out.
Yes.I use a "classic" 20/50, there are a few brands available. even Wilko sell it...
Hi, one thing to consider is the much mentioned zinc additives or ZDDP. Older engines like the essex use flat face tappet cams which does give the oil quite a hard time & older oils had various additives to help avoid scuffing etc which can cause rapid wear. The essex isn't particularly prone to this (at least not like Rover V8s are) but maybe worth thinking about as there are plenty of classic oils which have & don't have the suitable levels of zinc. There isn't a huge price differential although there is obviously a range. I know that the halfords classic oil doesn't meet the criteria but millers classic does for example.
20/50 should be fine - just keep the revs down when it's cold as the pressure relief valve does struggle a bit when the oil viscosity is high & the oil pump drive isn't the strongest of setups.
I'd always avoid synthetic on these types of engines too as it's so thin when hot that it can drain down & cause premature wear on restart.
From personal experience I'd stay away from engine flush, particularly on an older engine which has an unknown history, last thing you want is crud floating around in your sump just waiting to block your pickup pipe!
All just my opinions of course - feel free to ignore!
Stew
20/50 should be fine - just keep the revs down when it's cold as the pressure relief valve does struggle a bit when the oil viscosity is high & the oil pump drive isn't the strongest of setups.
I'd always avoid synthetic on these types of engines too as it's so thin when hot that it can drain down & cause premature wear on restart.
From personal experience I'd stay away from engine flush, particularly on an older engine which has an unknown history, last thing you want is crud floating around in your sump just waiting to block your pickup pipe!
All just my opinions of course - feel free to ignore!
Stew
I use Millers Classic 20/50 on all three of mine its not synthetic and is high in Zinc so far very happy a bit dearer than others but if you shop around you can get a deal especially if you order in bulk i tend to get either a 25lt drum or last time i managed to get 5 x 5lt at about the same price
Andrew
Andrew
If it were me I'd run nothing but Valvoline VR1 20W50. I know some engine builders only warranty a classic engine if run on this stuff.
On the couple of cars I've used it on it does the trick very well. Better hot idle oil pressure and surprisingly staying cleaner between oil changes.
I used to use Unipart 20W50 previously.
Contrary to popular belief Synthetics are not that bad on older engines, but it does so happen that many synthetics are far thinner than what old engines need. The Millers 20W50 NT for instance is a superb oil for a classic but probably overkill for most unless the car is thrashed alot.
On the couple of cars I've used it on it does the trick very well. Better hot idle oil pressure and surprisingly staying cleaner between oil changes.
I used to use Unipart 20W50 previously.
Contrary to popular belief Synthetics are not that bad on older engines, but it does so happen that many synthetics are far thinner than what old engines need. The Millers 20W50 NT for instance is a superb oil for a classic but probably overkill for most unless the car is thrashed alot.
I'd be happy with a 20/50 in a road car - probably Valvoline. I would however be quite happy with a synthetic. I run a 10/60 synthetic in race car but that's different and it's fine, but now you chaps have made me think when you suggest synthetics being less viscous when hot.
So it raises a question...
Does a 20/50 mineral oil have the same viscosity at upper and lower temps as synthetic?
So it raises a question...
Does a 20/50 mineral oil have the same viscosity at upper and lower temps as synthetic?
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 5th December 12:10
TVRMs said:
I'd be happy with a 20/50 in a road car - probably Valvoline. I would however be quite happy with a synthetic. I run a 10/60 synthetic in race car but that's different and it's fine, but now you chaps have made me think when you suggest synthetics being less viscous when hot.
So it raises a question...
Does a 20/50 mineral oil have the same viscosity at upper and lower temps as synthetic?
IIRC the VR1 20W50 comes very close from what I understand ;a few engine builders I know love the stuff! I know with VR1 in a couple of cars I've had now the hot oil pressure has been consistent.So it raises a question...
Does a 20/50 mineral oil have the same viscosity at upper and lower temps as synthetic?
Edited by TVRMs on Monday 5th December 12:10
IIRC Millers 20W50 Classic Sport is a Semi Synthetic.
I have up until very recent used Valvoline racing, unfourtunately I now have been told the Zinc content is not as high as it was previously and been advised not to use it.
Which is a shame because I have 10ltrs of it in my garage.
So it's now a second mortgage and Joe Gibbs Driven SP6.
Which is a shame because I have 10ltrs of it in my garage.
So it's now a second mortgage and Joe Gibbs Driven SP6.
There are 2 kinds of Valvoline VR1.
The Mineral based one is the best to use….and still has zinc.
After knocking a camshaft out on a first start up I have also reverted to using Comp cams zinc additive.
After running a race car and experiencing the extremes of temperature that oils get to, then for extreme use after an engine break-in I would only now consider running a fully synthetic based oil.
I like the old Mineral VR1 and for a road car it is pretty hard to justify using anything else..You have to accept that a good mineral oil starts to shear at temps approaching 100 degrees and as such for harsh use it will not give engine longevity. Day to day use with regular changes in a road car then it is good stuff. Millers employ some good Chemists as well and similarly their oils offer good performance / Value
I have now switched to Royal Purple for the Racer, again in 20-50. It is extremely expensive but I have made the switch on the recommendation of a number of longstanding racers who swear by the stuff. Probably not justified as a Road oil though at prices approaching £30 per litre.
Some comments about viscosity of Synthetics above…as far as I am concerned the properties of oil with respect to their SAE ratings are all equal whether Mineral / Synthetic.
Synthetics are more stable at High temps, hence there better performance.
For road cars.. the rule for me is to stick with a good thick oil which suits our old slack tolerance engines. This gives good oil pressure and keeps the oil where it needs to be.
Apart from that it is just a case of buying good quality oil and changing it regularly.
I would never use supermarket value oils. Yes it is oil but the Blends and additives such as Zinc etc are where the differences are that ensure good performance.
Modern Branded oils are now very much designed for modern cars with very close tolerance parts which are designed to run with thin oils, no additives such as Zinc…This is down to ever tightening emissions standards which are removing the additives which protect our old engines.
The above pics show the result of using a cheap oil on a first start up without zinc additive!!
N.
The Mineral based one is the best to use….and still has zinc.
After knocking a camshaft out on a first start up I have also reverted to using Comp cams zinc additive.
After running a race car and experiencing the extremes of temperature that oils get to, then for extreme use after an engine break-in I would only now consider running a fully synthetic based oil.
I like the old Mineral VR1 and for a road car it is pretty hard to justify using anything else..You have to accept that a good mineral oil starts to shear at temps approaching 100 degrees and as such for harsh use it will not give engine longevity. Day to day use with regular changes in a road car then it is good stuff. Millers employ some good Chemists as well and similarly their oils offer good performance / Value
I have now switched to Royal Purple for the Racer, again in 20-50. It is extremely expensive but I have made the switch on the recommendation of a number of longstanding racers who swear by the stuff. Probably not justified as a Road oil though at prices approaching £30 per litre.
Some comments about viscosity of Synthetics above…as far as I am concerned the properties of oil with respect to their SAE ratings are all equal whether Mineral / Synthetic.
Synthetics are more stable at High temps, hence there better performance.
For road cars.. the rule for me is to stick with a good thick oil which suits our old slack tolerance engines. This gives good oil pressure and keeps the oil where it needs to be.
Apart from that it is just a case of buying good quality oil and changing it regularly.
I would never use supermarket value oils. Yes it is oil but the Blends and additives such as Zinc etc are where the differences are that ensure good performance.
Modern Branded oils are now very much designed for modern cars with very close tolerance parts which are designed to run with thin oils, no additives such as Zinc…This is down to ever tightening emissions standards which are removing the additives which protect our old engines.
The above pics show the result of using a cheap oil on a first start up without zinc additive!!
N.
Edited by Dollyman1850 on Tuesday 6th December 08:44
Synthetic oils will be better in EVERY respect to a mineral oil, the only difference will be as mentioned above, the additives.
Modern fully synthetic oils have polymers integrated in to the base structure, these polymers have the effect of preventing the oil thinning out too quickly which is qhy you can get very good multigrade oils. with very wide temperature ranges, like 5w50, 10w60 etc.
The problem with Mineral oils is that the grain structure is not uniform. Synthetic oils have a completely uniform grain structure. This has the effect of creating a much more uniform surface for the metal parts to glide over one another. Having this more uniform structure will makes the oil more resistant to sheer (where the oil breaks down under high load and metal parts will meet). I use a 5w50 fully synthetic in all of my engines no ZDDP. ZDDP was introduced as an anti wear agent for oils back in the 40s. As oil technology at the time was poor, this is a good substitute for metal on metal contact as oils would commonly shear under different loads. All being equal, a modern oil will not break down or "shear" under stress as its designed for that purpose thus the ZDDP is all but eliminated, the only caveat is that you need to use a good FULLY synthetic oil. If flat tappet lifters absolutely needed this, then bucket over shim would also require a similar additive. Like Say the AJP V8?
The viscosity is a no brainier.
Using a 5w50 means that oil will act like a thinner oil at low temperatures (a "5" in this case) and a thicker oil at high temperatures (a "50").
As our engines are performance engines, that have oil temps in excess of 80c, you want an oil that does not get too thin in service. At that temp, a 50 oil will have a viscosity of around 35 cst, likewise a 40 oil will be around 25. So not a great difference. The reason for such oils as 0w30 etc is that engines can run at lower circulating temperatures thus saving energy and thus be more efficient.
I could write all day, but I would use fully synthetic oil in any engine, regardless of its purpose. I use fully synthetic on my 1959 f100, for the same reasons as above!
As for brand, a lot of oil companies out there do not make their own synthetic bases. They are made by the bigger boys. Synthetic oils by "comma" actually use the same synthetic bases as Mobil and are blended to suit on site. If you look on the side of oil by comma and by Mobil, they have all of the same regulatory numbers and testing standards. Unfortunately, most people are none the wiser and "brand hype" gets the better. Arguably i do buy oil by the drum so its cheaper, but its not expensive in the first place, retail.
Jody
Modern fully synthetic oils have polymers integrated in to the base structure, these polymers have the effect of preventing the oil thinning out too quickly which is qhy you can get very good multigrade oils. with very wide temperature ranges, like 5w50, 10w60 etc.
The problem with Mineral oils is that the grain structure is not uniform. Synthetic oils have a completely uniform grain structure. This has the effect of creating a much more uniform surface for the metal parts to glide over one another. Having this more uniform structure will makes the oil more resistant to sheer (where the oil breaks down under high load and metal parts will meet). I use a 5w50 fully synthetic in all of my engines no ZDDP. ZDDP was introduced as an anti wear agent for oils back in the 40s. As oil technology at the time was poor, this is a good substitute for metal on metal contact as oils would commonly shear under different loads. All being equal, a modern oil will not break down or "shear" under stress as its designed for that purpose thus the ZDDP is all but eliminated, the only caveat is that you need to use a good FULLY synthetic oil. If flat tappet lifters absolutely needed this, then bucket over shim would also require a similar additive. Like Say the AJP V8?
The viscosity is a no brainier.
Using a 5w50 means that oil will act like a thinner oil at low temperatures (a "5" in this case) and a thicker oil at high temperatures (a "50").
- *as a side note the "W" stands for WINTER not weight.
As our engines are performance engines, that have oil temps in excess of 80c, you want an oil that does not get too thin in service. At that temp, a 50 oil will have a viscosity of around 35 cst, likewise a 40 oil will be around 25. So not a great difference. The reason for such oils as 0w30 etc is that engines can run at lower circulating temperatures thus saving energy and thus be more efficient.
StewB_v6 said:
I'd always avoid synthetic on these types of engines too as it's so thin when hot that it can drain down & cause premature wear on restart
Unfortunately, you are mis informed. A 20w50 and 5w50 will have the SAME viscosity at running temperatures, but the 5w50 will have far better flow properties at lower temperatures.I could write all day, but I would use fully synthetic oil in any engine, regardless of its purpose. I use fully synthetic on my 1959 f100, for the same reasons as above!
As for brand, a lot of oil companies out there do not make their own synthetic bases. They are made by the bigger boys. Synthetic oils by "comma" actually use the same synthetic bases as Mobil and are blended to suit on site. If you look on the side of oil by comma and by Mobil, they have all of the same regulatory numbers and testing standards. Unfortunately, most people are none the wiser and "brand hype" gets the better. Arguably i do buy oil by the drum so its cheaper, but its not expensive in the first place, retail.
Jody
Edited by tofts on Tuesday 6th December 11:26
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