2017 GTS (Manual or PDK)
Discussion
Robbo66 said:
You can when they're similar money. How often does one seriously use rear seats in a 911. The market for the GTS at £110k is microscopic.Most would be happy with the C2S if they want to lug kids about, or buy the GT3 / GT4 and a runaround. The 911 is hardly a 'family' car.
Luckily its smaller than for the Gt3s so i can actually buy one 
in 2007 was able to buy a new GT3 without whatever it even is you have to do these days to get one.feel demand for the GTS is healthy its not a stupid corrupt pyramid scheme nor will it depreciate like other 100k purchases from say AMG. The rear seats are actually pretty good if you have kids between 4-12 as its going to be a 2nd or more often 3rd for most buyers and many will have young families.
That you can get it in a widebody with all the creature comforts and a more discrete image than a car with wings and roll cage makes it a really great package. The fact it lapped the ring faster than a 991.1 gt3 is interesting.
If anything shock horror its the used prices of gt3s that seems high and dont even goto the 911r.
Im glad Porsche makes cars like the 911 GTS and prices them reasonably to sell to owners that want to buy them as well as the GT cars that are great track toys but artifically distorted with supply numbers. If the suppy of gt3s went up the values would fall prob without that much more supply as its the perception of linited supply that keeps their prices so inflated. The 997 gt3 didnt trade at a premium as its supply was not seen as so limited even though it was not made in that high numbers.
dvshannow said:
Im glad Porsche makes cars like the 911 GTS and prices them reasonably to sell to owners that want to buy them as well as the GT cars that are great track toys but artifically distorted with supply numbers. If the suppy of gt3s went up the values would fall prob without that much more supply as its the perception of linited supply that keeps their prices so inflated.
But if Porsche produced as many 991.1 GT3 s as there are say 458s i.e. c1200 instead of c 330 this would have little or no affect on residuals.The premiums on these cars are largely a result of a combination of clear intentional underpricing by Porsche when new in the name of brand filtering coupled with the cars extraordinary ability.....nothing really comes close at the money.
In contrast, whilst the GTS is a good overall package, it is nevertheless overpriced when new.
HokumPokum said:
Why get a Gt3 when it doesn't fit your lifestyle?
in reality, the population of porsche drivers that actually track more than 3 or 4 times a year is quite rare. In fact, most don't track their cars other than the odd time out.
why get a gt3? .
Didn't realise one of the conditions of driving, owning and enjoying the 991 GT3 was having to track it.in reality, the population of porsche drivers that actually track more than 3 or 4 times a year is quite rare. In fact, most don't track their cars other than the odd time out.
why get a gt3? .
Imo it is one of the best GT3s for road use.
And one of the best road cars. Period.
av185 said:
HokumPokum said:
Why get a Gt3 when it doesn't fit your lifestyle?
in reality, the population of porsche drivers that actually track more than 3 or 4 times a year is quite rare. In fact, most don't track their cars other than the odd time out.
why get a gt3? .
Didn't realise one of the conditions of driving, owning and enjoying the 991 GT3 was having to track it.in reality, the population of porsche drivers that actually track more than 3 or 4 times a year is quite rare. In fact, most don't track their cars other than the odd time out.
why get a gt3? .
Imo it is one of the best GT3s for road use.
And one of the best road cars. Period.
a gt3 is more suited for track work than a GTS.
I'm simply stating that if you don't track, perhaps other stuff like parking sensors and an ability to carry more than 1 passenger matters.
re road use, I'd say my RS is a better road car than a Gt3 and is the best road car. It is an RS you know......not a lowly Gt3.
tuffer said:
But you can actually get a GTS, chances of getting a GT3 are pretty slim unless you have a long and illustrious history with the OPC.
Whether you have a long history or not, does not guarantee you a car believe me. I was referring to a used 991 GT3, not the new model due out.av185 said:
But if Porsche produced as many 991.1 GT3 s as there are say 458s i.e. c1200 instead of c 330 this would have little or no affect on residuals.
The premiums on these cars are largely a result of a combination of clear intentional underpricing by Porsche when new in the name of brand filtering coupled with the cars extraordinary ability.....nothing really comes close at the money.
In contrast, whilst the GTS is a good overall package, it is nevertheless overpriced when new.
No way would 4x supply have little impact on residuals.The premiums on these cars are largely a result of a combination of clear intentional underpricing by Porsche when new in the name of brand filtering coupled with the cars extraordinary ability.....nothing really comes close at the money.
In contrast, whilst the GTS is a good overall package, it is nevertheless overpriced when new.
Premium is simply the clearing price for the car (supply vs demand) vs the price Porsche chooses to sell for, the premium is a function somewhat of the RRP i agree. In this function the supply is a large input, as the expected forward of the car is expected to remain high with limited supply.
While the GT3 is a fine car you cannot justify the premium it commands with its objective features.
The GTS is not overpriced - if you look at the base 911, S and Turbo its actually very well priced, not to say 110k is not a lot for a car.
The GT3 is a track special, which by nature appeals to a minority of uses who track regularly or who like to drive around in track cars on the road - when you extract out the exclusivity which is artificially inflated due to the limited supply.
Should Porsche release the new .2 GT3 without supply restriction, at 110k (so a new car with options would be circa 120-130k+ i guess PCCB are essential on such a car) it would be interesting to see how much demand there would be - ie how sales of it are vs other 911 models.
I suspect a lot of the buyers are not that interested in owning a track special but do so now as they can own it for effectively free or positive carry should they so wish (and congrats to all who can!)
But objectively speaking, you could argue that the precious GT3 at 130k for 1y used vs a new 110k GTS does not make the GTS look that expensive at all. Especially given the .2 GTS is apparently faster around a certain well know track than the .1 GT3, and does so while being a much better road car, with rear seats, more discrete looks and the ability to buy one brand new to your exact spec
I like both cars but find like many the current pricing / supply around GT cars to be quite distasteful, having bought a new 997 GT3 and been through the pain of the GT4 (i could have bought one new RHD from Europe but was too much hassle). If i could buy a new GTS or a new GT3 now i would personally be buying the GTS, as i do have young kids, i dont plan to track the car more than 1x a year and the GTS is the best looking 911 on the road. (911R aside..)
HokumPokum said:
re road use, I'd say my RS is a better road car than a Gt3 and is the best road car. It is an RS you know......not a lowly Gt3.
Strange then, that for road use, Ecoty placed the GT4 in first place ahead of the Mac and GT3 RS. Why? Basically because the 'losing two' simply gave you more performance than you could ever use on the public road.Equally, the 'lowly'
GT3 won Ecoty in the previous year.And whilst I rate the 991 RS highly, the aero is unquestionably ott for road use and one looks a bit of plank driving to the supermarket in it.
The 991 GT3 is undoubtedly the sweetspot.
But I appreciate it is all subjective.
av185 said:
HokumPokum said:
re road use, I'd say my RS is a better road car than a Gt3 and is the best road car. It is an RS you know......not a lowly Gt3.
Strange then, that for road use, Ecoty placed the GT4 in first place ahead of the Mac and GT3 RS. Why? Basically because the 'losing two' simply gave you more performance than you could ever use on the public road.Equally, the 'lowly'
GT3 won Ecoty in the previous year.And whilst I rate the 991 RS highly, the aero is unquestionably ott for road use and one looks a bit of plank driving to the supermarket in it.
The 991 GT3 is undoubtedly the sweetspot.
But I appreciate it is all subjective.
really though i would struggle to argue much past a Cayman S Edited by dvshannow on Friday 3rd February 12:56
dvshannow said:
No way would 4x supply have little impact on residuals.
This example would suggest otherwise:UK build numbers
991 GT3 c330
981 GT4 c600
981 Spyder c200
Despite the vast difference in build numbers between the GT4 and Spyder (3x as many!), both models were selling at a 50 percent premium in the first 6 months of initial deliveries.
And so was the GT3.
If the supply of these new cars is unrestricted, I agree there would be less of a premium. But there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that even by increasing supply substantially that premiums would reduce as my 458 example clearly illustrates....even 6 year old cars are selling for just under new list price with around 1200 UK cars...hardly rare.
Edited by av185 on Friday 3rd February 13:14
av185 said:
HokumPokum said:
re road use, I'd say my RS is a better road car than a Gt3 and is the best road car. It is an RS you know......not a lowly Gt3.
Strange then, that for road use, Ecoty placed the GT4 in first place ahead of the Mac and GT3 RS. Why? Basically because the 'losing two' simply gave you more performance than you could ever use on the public road.Equally, the 'lowly'
GT3 won Ecoty in the previous year.And whilst I rate the 991 RS highly, the aero is unquestionably ott for road use and one looks a bit of plank driving to the supermarket in it.
The 991 GT3 is undoubtedly the sweetspot.
But I appreciate it is all subjective.
just think the gts is another sweet spot for some of us as well.
av185 said:
This example would suggest otherwise:
UK build numbers
991 GT3 c330
981 GT4 c600
981 Spyder c200
Despite the vast difference in build numbers between the GT4 and Spyder (3x as many!), both models were selling at a 50 percent premium in the first 6 months of initial deliveries.
And so was the GT3.
If the supply of these new cars is unrestricted, I agree there would be less of a premium. But there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that even by increasing supply substantially that premiums would reduce as my 458 example clearly illustrates....even 6 year old cars are selling for just under new list price with around 1200 UK cars...hardly rare.
Wouldn't it be great if Porsche just made enough 991.2's to meet demand. If they did that every now and again it would make an awful lot of people happy rather than just the chosen few. UK build numbers
991 GT3 c330
981 GT4 c600
981 Spyder c200
Despite the vast difference in build numbers between the GT4 and Spyder (3x as many!), both models were selling at a 50 percent premium in the first 6 months of initial deliveries.
And so was the GT3.
If the supply of these new cars is unrestricted, I agree there would be less of a premium. But there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that even by increasing supply substantially that premiums would reduce as my 458 example clearly illustrates....even 6 year old cars are selling for just under new list price with around 1200 UK cars...hardly rare.
Edited by av185 on Friday 3rd February 13:14
Cheib said:
Wouldn't it be great if Porsche just made enough 991.2's to meet demand. If they did that every now and again it would make an awful lot of people happy rather than just the chosen few.
I agree but then the main point of the 'restrictions' on production of GT cars is to support brand filtering so would you, as owner of a GTS, not be aggrieved if your car was perceived in a 'lesser' light and its established crazy high residual value was consequently adversely affected? (To be clear, I own a GTS too btw).Effectively, all Porsches owners benefit from the GT scenario to a greater or lesser degree.
But unfortunately many conveniently forget this side of the equation.
Edited by av185 on Friday 3rd February 14:12
[quote=av185]
I agree but then the main point of the 'restrictions' on production of GT cars is to support brand filtering so would you, as owner of a GTS, not be aggrieved if your car was perceived in a 'lesser' light and its established crazy high residual value was consequently adversely affected? (To be clear, I own a GTS too btw).
Effectively, all Porsches owners benefit from the GT scenario to a greater or lesser degree.
But unfortunately many conveniently forget this side of the equation.
i dont think so the pricing and residuals of the 'lesser' non GT cars has always been good even in the 2000s when the GT cars did not command aftermarket premiums. But if they did built GT cars to order we might live in a world where the Porsche forum was full of people discussing the cars they own and not model premiums. Think in that world everyone benefits.
I agree but then the main point of the 'restrictions' on production of GT cars is to support brand filtering so would you, as owner of a GTS, not be aggrieved if your car was perceived in a 'lesser' light and its established crazy high residual value was consequently adversely affected? (To be clear, I own a GTS too btw).
Effectively, all Porsches owners benefit from the GT scenario to a greater or lesser degree.
But unfortunately many conveniently forget this side of the equation.
Edited by av185 on Friday 3rd February 14:12
[/quotei dont think so the pricing and residuals of the 'lesser' non GT cars has always been good even in the 2000s when the GT cars did not command aftermarket premiums. But if they did built GT cars to order we might live in a world where the Porsche forum was full of people discussing the cars they own and not model premiums. Think in that world everyone benefits.
av185 said:
Cheib said:
Wouldn't it be great if Porsche just made enough 991.2's to meet demand. If they did that every now and again it would make an awful lot of people happy rather than just the chosen few.
I agree but then the main point of the 'restrictions' on production of GT cars is to support brand filtering so would you, as owner of a GTS, not be aggrieved if your car was perceived in a 'lesser' light and its established crazy high residual value was consequently adversely affected? (To be clear, I own a GTS too btw).Effectively, all Porsches owners benefit from the GT scenario to a greater or lesser degree.
But unfortunately many conveniently forget this side of the equation.
Edited by av185 on Friday 3rd February 14:12
I'd also sign up for them increasing the GT3 price to something more realistic to take a lot of the speculators out. I think if they increased the base price of a 991.2 GT3 to say £125k to £135k area it would take a lot of the froth out of the market. Specced up the cars would be £140k plus probably which is probably the right price.
m88ony said:
Souped up C2S. You cant compare a GTS to a GT3 or even a GT4. Rear seats and practicality aims the GTS to a different market to the cars you mention above which are ultimately track cars.
The 991.1 GTS with no turbo is closer in spirit to the gt3. The GTS is an every day car. I wouldn't have it in manual either. PDK is so good for every day use. It's the lag under 3k revs that I don't like. Lovely looking car but unfortunately emissions control has ruined it for me.
I wonder what they sound like? The .1 sounds amazing in the cabin with exhaust on of off. I wonder if this has any of that drama?
911 supply does seem to be more limited across the rage perhaps due to the value of the pound. It's very possible that this will affect the number of new gt3's coming to dealers. I don't think we'll see gt4 numbers at all. I reckon same as the gen 1. Time will tell but with unsettled times ahead people may well be less likely to fork out 110k minimum with a little spec for a new gt3. The gt4 at 65k plus spec was a much easier decision to make.
rbh said:
When speaking to the finance guy at Porsche when finalising my order, he said that they we finding it hard to get any models through at the moment, possibly a function of the financial uncertainties of the moment!
Or the fact that price increases may be due in April! Ship the cars inQ2 and they are all invoiced at the new price. If they play a bit of catch up with increased volumes from April onwards they will still hit their yearly sales targets and keep profits higher.Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff