Cooking models vs hyper hot hatches
Discussion
This is what I spend most of my time on school run messing around with. Best MPG I've managed so far is 40mpg.
So the new GTI encourages you to go slowly in the real world and think blue whatever this means! Hardly in keeping with a 330PS road racer but I still enjoy driving it even in eco mode : )
So the new GTI encourages you to go slowly in the real world and think blue whatever this means! Hardly in keeping with a 330PS road racer but I still enjoy driving it even in eco mode : )
anonymous said:
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In terms of hardware and disc/pad size they are at least the same as 986S and 996 Carrera. However, they don't necessarily last as long as the electronics pulses them on and off so frequently even in fast road driving that the pads actually wear out faster than on a 986 Boxster. I was surprised at how hard they are on pads in comparison. I don't think they have the same sort of cooling ducts as well.IMI A said:
We should put you in a GTI Clubsport S vs 996 C2 and 997 C2 on a circuit like Bedford Autodrome West circuit and find out for ourselves. My own view is the hatchback would destroy them even over a whole day. They're supplied from the factory with bigger two piece floating rotors and Cup 2s nowadays. Even interior stripped out. Same fellow who was responsible for GT3 development has been responsible for VW's ultimate hatch project. Civic Type R also a road racer.
To call them hyper hatches is a bit OTT. When they have 400-500bhp from the factory I think hyper hatch cache applicable.
GTI CSS Ring time 7.47
964 RS 8.28
996.1 C2 8.17
997.1 C2 8.15
Tyres aside thats a big difference. I actually think an early Cayman S and Boxster S would fare better than cooking 911s. Having said all this I'd still take the 911s in a heart beat! The beauty of the hatchback is economy, practicality and anonymity and the duality of occasionally getting GTI character when the kids aren't in the car with you but still no substitute for a 911 IMO.
I think that the GTI CSS is probably better pitched against something like a 997GTS. Impresive little thing. There's no doubt that tin top technplogy has moved on. As a yard stick, we were lot quicker than the Touring cars in 07/08 in the Carrera cup but Ingram was at Silvestone in october in his 2016 Touring car while I was doing rides in an 07 Cup car and even after discounting tyres and my passenger, it was a fair bit quicker. I know that is not an objective comparison as touring cars do not mirror much of road car technology but it was interesting. The biggest leap forward pace wise in hot hatches is not the power that the engines produce, its more how it is deployed through the transmission/diff. E diff technology makes every driver almost as quick as a professional driver driving the same car with a standard diff. Its a night and day game changer. The diff on my Golf GTD does everything for me, i just stay flat on the throttle and laugh a lot as the diff sorts everything out. Well, I laughed a lot initially but i dont anymore because i'm bored with it now. What would be interesting is how long the brakes on these cars will last as they take a real hammering from the diff's active systems. To call them hyper hatches is a bit OTT. When they have 400-500bhp from the factory I think hyper hatch cache applicable.
GTI CSS Ring time 7.47
964 RS 8.28
996.1 C2 8.17
997.1 C2 8.15
Tyres aside thats a big difference. I actually think an early Cayman S and Boxster S would fare better than cooking 911s. Having said all this I'd still take the 911s in a heart beat! The beauty of the hatchback is economy, practicality and anonymity and the duality of occasionally getting GTI character when the kids aren't in the car with you but still no substitute for a 911 IMO.
Steve Rance said:
What would be interesting is how long the brakes on these cars will last as they take a real hammering from the diff's active systems.
On a new CTR and Megane they do about 3-4 days of warm weather 200 miles a day fast road driving whereas my 986 would do the week and more no sweat.I am enjoying the Megane Cup-S far more than I'd enjoy a 996/997 I think. Proper turn-in, almost neutral, very mobile on trail braking (but predictable and progressive), will take an absurd amount of hammering on track (albeit on PFC pads / RBF600 / NS2rs). Even the engine is cleverly mapped to mimic N/A in the right throttle map, albeit with a shorter rev range, not all turbos are equal. Not sure which would be quicker but generally there is very little difference between 2 well driven performance cars on track anyway. It really doesn't matter anyway.
I would argue the Megane is more conventional though, so that must help - less electronic trickery and just and more of an aggressive set up.
On a trackday a Clio or Megane is a real hoot, as fun as anything else you could drive. However, lift off oversteer is a bit of a one trick pony, so once you've done it once, you're kind of over it. Whereas a a 911, or anything mid-engined, is going to be a challenge for years potentially.
On a trackday a Clio or Megane is a real hoot, as fun as anything else you could drive. However, lift off oversteer is a bit of a one trick pony, so once you've done it once, you're kind of over it. Whereas a a 911, or anything mid-engined, is going to be a challenge for years potentially.
Am I being a little controversial here by saying: "hot hatch = digital, whilst 997 or slower earlier 911s = analogue". Also, is ultimate speed, be it 0-60, or 0-100, or standing quarter - whatever, not a facile measure of a car's attributes ? Racing/chasing/aggressive driving on the road is a no-no: take your man-ego to a track day & chill there - I'm old enough to know I don't wish to die young!!
Surely, we petrol-heads, value our connection with the car: those visceral feelings of ownership & driving. For me, the approach to the car, the opening of the door, the starting & moving away, the seat of the pants feel & the underlying engineering, all give added value way beyond any performance metrics one could mention.
As I continue to state, the mantra "it's not how fast you go, it's how you go fast" applies. The reasons for buying a car are many, but with roads as congested as those in the U.K. & with the draconian speed restrictions imposed on us: then performance is subordinate to the tactility & visceral elements of driving. But, to argue against the above, on one point, as yet the thought police have yet to devise a law to penalise drivers for going from 0-60 & cornering rather quickly, thank the Lord for that!
Of course, I throw all the above out as my personal view. My views would, undoubtedly, have been totally different had I written this >twenty years ago, prior to the testosterone degradation of advancing years. Others will, I'm aware, have different opinions.
Surely, we petrol-heads, value our connection with the car: those visceral feelings of ownership & driving. For me, the approach to the car, the opening of the door, the starting & moving away, the seat of the pants feel & the underlying engineering, all give added value way beyond any performance metrics one could mention.
As I continue to state, the mantra "it's not how fast you go, it's how you go fast" applies. The reasons for buying a car are many, but with roads as congested as those in the U.K. & with the draconian speed restrictions imposed on us: then performance is subordinate to the tactility & visceral elements of driving. But, to argue against the above, on one point, as yet the thought police have yet to devise a law to penalise drivers for going from 0-60 & cornering rather quickly, thank the Lord for that!
Of course, I throw all the above out as my personal view. My views would, undoubtedly, have been totally different had I written this >twenty years ago, prior to the testosterone degradation of advancing years. Others will, I'm aware, have different opinions.
hondansx said:
I would argue the Megane is more conventional though, so that must help - less electronic trickery and just and more of an aggressive set up.
On a trackday a Clio or Megane is a real hoot, as fun as anything else you could drive. However, lift off oversteer is a bit of a one trick pony, so once you've done it once, you're kind of over it. Whereas a a 911, or anything mid-engined, is going to be a challenge for years potentially.
All true. I am not sure bow long my 987 would have taken the punishment for though, with so much lat g !On a trackday a Clio or Megane is a real hoot, as fun as anything else you could drive. However, lift off oversteer is a bit of a one trick pony, so once you've done it once, you're kind of over it. Whereas a a 911, or anything mid-engined, is going to be a challenge for years potentially.
www.fastestlap.com click on the Compare Option and compare away. Its rather interesting especially where both cars have been round the same track
anonymous said:
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I have owned a Megane R26 for nearly 2 years now and I agree with you. The interior quality is pretty awful, better on the mk3 but all of these cars suffer from hatchback driving position. Everyone complains about the Recaro seats being too high in the mk2 for example, a common complaint of many hatchbacks. Stock gearshift also bloody awful, just flicking a light plastic lever about. In the Porsches you get a much better driving position, in the older ones like my race car you also get much nicer control weight especially on stuff like the gear shift.Even the Civic btw can suffer from brake fade due to inadequate cooling, a German company has come up with a bigger deflector to help. The Meganes have nothing, no ducts nor deflectors to help cool the brakes.
They make really fantastic day to day cars though for people that are addicted to a bit of speed occasionally and this is pretty what my Megane has become more of for me, its probably quicker (almost convinced it is quicker) on track than my 944 race car but I don't think chucking £10k at it will ever make it feel as alive or satisfying on track, although having said that it is surprisingly fun at least 90% as good.
They are also pretty fantastic options for those who want one car to drive about in + drive too and from track days, what I can't for the life of me understand is those who want the ruin what is good about the things by stripping em and trailering them about.
They all sound crap though except for the RS3 which sounds blooming brilliant.
anonymous said:
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I take your points & defer to your rather greater knowledge of the genre. My exposure to hot hatches is limited to the latest Golf R & Focus RS, which are both 4-wheel drive, of course - lovely drives but unlikely to hold my enthusiasm for too long.As you say, the deal breaker is difficult to define but connection with the car, the drive & the manufacturer's ethos, in my humble view, take precedence in the purchasing stakes - certainly well ahead of base figures for zero to whatever speed.
anonymous said:
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While we're on the topic of modern hatches, how do the latest Megane Cups compare with the Clio 182's and Trophy (if you've driven one), ignoring outright grunt.Of all the cars I've owned, the Clio Trophy feels the most in tune with the driver when driving hard, relatively boring 4 pot and all.
Patrick Bateman said:
anonymous said:
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While we're on the topic of modern hatches, how do the latest Megane Cups compare with the Clio 182's and Trophy (if you've driven one), ignoring outright grunt.Of all the cars I've owned, the Clio Trophy feels the most in tune with the driver when driving hard, relatively boring 4 pot and all.
It's one thing to have a really fast vehicle, but if one's skill level is lacking then either one becomes a danger to others or what you've paid for is under-utilised. There is an ideal car out there for all skill levels, it's finding it that's the problem! For example, a first generation Scirocco (circa 1980) matched my competence, in that I drove it at 9/10ths of mine & its potential. Porsche's operate at a high pay grade, so to speak. At 9/10ths of my ability, a 911 is probably at 6/10ths of its performance spectrum, but it gives me, for all the reasons alluded to above, driver satisfaction. In my case, the Cayman GTS is the only car that has beaten the Scirocco for driver compatibility- utterly brilliant car. Wish I'd not sold it: bugger!
ooid said:
ChrisW. said:
I have just bought one of the last of the RS3 Sportback as a "sensible" daily driver ...
And the quality is probably better than Porsche in near standard trim ---
Well, I think Audi with RS and R in particular much better than many of the modern Porsche's, I would say that they are sort of replaced Porsche really. They are fantastic cars, yet quite modern, not so much extravaganza drama. I would not count them (RS) as hot-hatches.And the quality is probably better than Porsche in near standard trim ---
Patrick Bateman said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
While we're on the topic of modern hatches, how do the latest Megane Cups compare with the Clio 182's and Trophy (if you've driven one), ignoring outright grunt.Of all the cars I've owned, the Clio Trophy feels the most in tune with the driver when driving hard, relatively boring 4 pot and all.
Can I just add, in my opinion, all this talk of "Giant killing" by FWD/4WD hatches is no longer relevant as these cars are absolutely massive now and similar power to the cooking 911s mentioned.
Now these hyper/hot/mega hatches or whatever the motoring media calls them next are infact at least two classes larger than they were.
Give me a 997 C2 manual and I'd take it over all the new hatches.
Hot/hyper/mega hatches fans: One shouldn't underestimate the traction of a 996/7. They are capable of being very consistent with raw numbers.
Autocar figured a boggo 3.6 996 back in 2002 in the 10sec to 100mph bracket, IIRC.
Now these hyper/hot/mega hatches or whatever the motoring media calls them next are infact at least two classes larger than they were.
Give me a 997 C2 manual and I'd take it over all the new hatches.
Hot/hyper/mega hatches fans: One shouldn't underestimate the traction of a 996/7. They are capable of being very consistent with raw numbers.
Autocar figured a boggo 3.6 996 back in 2002 in the 10sec to 100mph bracket, IIRC.
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