PCCB on a 56 reg GT3

PCCB on a 56 reg GT3

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Discussion

squirdan

Original Poster:

1,082 posts

146 months

Thursday 16th February 2017
quotequote all
I am currently mulling over a couple of 997.1 GT3s

One of them has PCCB

It has 37k miles on it and as a clubsport car I imagine will have done trackwork

Its from an OPC and hence has passed their 111pt check and comes with 2 yrs warranty

I've had a video of the car and cant see any obvious discolouration or flaking. Obviously I will look with my own eyes as well

I've read all of the most relevant threads on here and I am aware of the issues

BUT at the end of the day, if this is the car I want, and the discs look smooth and shiny, is there any reason not to buy it? (aware the 150k miles GT3 sold recently also had PCCB original discs)

not the best of photos but gives you an idea



Slippydiff or anyone else with direct experience please shout up or PM me. cheers

ChrisW.

6,210 posts

254 months

Thursday 16th February 2017
quotequote all
These discs are laminated.

The appearance when new is slightly textured though completely smooth, where the later PCCB's appear to have lines on their surface.

When they eventually fail ( clearly not within the 150k road miles life of the car recently sold), the surface delaminates and flakes of the surface lamination gradually detach themselves to the point where the uneven substrate into which the laminated layer keys, becomes visible.

Carefully cooling PCCB's and exchanging pads when half worn is I am told the best way of preserving the laminated discs --- for this reason I always do around 4 miles of cooling down when I try not to use the brakes at-all. A also warm them up gently because when damp they are sometimes a little slow to work properly !

If damaged there are three potential options. 1.. A new set from Mr P. 2. A re-laminated set from Sicom if they are still accessible (they did a set for me) 3. A new set of Surface Transform.

The Surface Transform are not laminated, are lighter than PCCB's, can be skimmed if damaged and cool better. For serious track use they would in my view be a superior solution --- and I have yet to hear of anybody who has worn a set out !

I have a GT4 with PCCB's -- which in theory should be bomb proof given that they are the same spec as those on the 991 GT3RS (with 120 bhp more power and 150kilos more to stop ?).

But because people like standard cars, I do wonder about fitting a set of Surface Transform if only to keep the existing discs at 8000 miles and almost pristine, for the next owner. I could even transfer them to the next car ? Or sell them secondhand ??

Back to your question ... you could also fit steel discs to the larger callipers if you wished (from JZM) ...

But then you lose all the unsprung mass advantages ...






nxi20

778 posts

204 months

Thursday 16th February 2017
quotequote all
There are 3 small circles toward the outside of the disc face which become increasingly noticeable as you wear the surface away. This is the visual clue that the disc is reaching the end of its life. The proper way to measure wear is by removing the discs & weighing them. The minimum weight is printed on the bell.




HokumPokum

2,049 posts

204 months

Thursday 16th February 2017
quotequote all
ChrisW. said:
These discs are laminated.

The appearance when new is slightly textured though completely smooth, where the later PCCB's appear to have lines on their surface.

When they eventually fail ( clearly not within the 150k road miles life of the car recently sold), the surface delaminates and flakes of the surface lamination gradually detach themselves to the point where the uneven substrate into which the laminated layer keys, becomes visible.

Carefully cooling PCCB's and exchanging pads when half worn is I am told the best way of preserving the laminated discs --- for this reason I always do around 4 miles of cooling down when I try not to use the brakes at-all. A also warm them up gently because when damp they are sometimes a little slow to work properly !

If damaged there are three potential options. 1.. A new set from Mr P. 2. A re-laminated set from Sicom if they are still accessible (they did a set for me) 3. A new set of Surface Transform.

The Surface Transform are not laminated, are lighter than PCCB's, can be skimmed if damaged and cool better. For serious track use they would in my view be a superior solution --- and I have yet to hear of anybody who has worn a set out !

I have a GT4 with PCCB's -- which in theory should be bomb proof given that they are the same spec as those on the 991 GT3RS (with 120 bhp more power and 150kilos more to stop ?).

But because people like standard cars, I do wonder about fitting a set of Surface Transform if only to keep the existing discs at 8000 miles and almost pristine, for the next owner. I could even transfer them to the next car ? Or sell them secondhand ??

Back to your question ... you could also fit steel discs to the larger callipers if you wished (from JZM) ...

But then you lose all the unsprung mass advantages ...
Hi Chris,

I have been advised re the cool down but in actuality it is high temps which oxidise the ceramic layer and wears the disc. Paradoxically, high temp management is also what CCBs are touted for i.e. non fade. But use them hard for prolong periods and you are bound to wear them. Whereas, on the road, they will never get up to track temp and thus last forever.

You are right in that it will last longer than the rs simply because GT4 has less HP and weight. But, wear it will through track use. Although I think that limiting yourself to 20min sessions with 1 extra lap cool down will help.....lots of cruising....Time for ST me thinks, pads are expensive though......

There is a price to pay for having the best performance. Though we should probably have gotten forged wheels + ST discs to truly increase the unsprung benefit.


Re OP: as Chris mentioned, PCCB need to be treated as a high cost wear item. They wear depending on your usage. if you track, go ST to keep the benefits, otherwise go Alcon steels. easy. I'd go ST.




jbaddeley

829 posts

204 months

Thursday 16th February 2017
quotequote all
Hi Chris. How did the costs on the relaminated set fare? I've just placed a deposit on a car with the PCCbs, albeit a Carrera S. That Sicom site looks potentially useful.

squirdan

Original Poster:

1,082 posts

146 months

Thursday 16th February 2017
quotequote all
If you read the whole Sicom thread it ended in tears

jbaddeley

829 posts

204 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
I've read it. Stated so promising!!

S1MMA

2,378 posts

218 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
squirdan said:
I am currently mulling over a couple of 997.1 GT3s

One of them has PCCB

It has 37k miles on it and as a clubsport car I imagine will have done trackwork

Its from an OPC and hence has passed their 111pt check and comes with 2 yrs warranty

I've had a video of the car and cant see any obvious discolouration or flaking. Obviously I will look with my own eyes as well

I've read all of the most relevant threads on here and I am aware of the issues

BUT at the end of the day, if this is the car I want, and the discs look smooth and shiny, is there any reason not to buy it? (aware the 150k miles GT3 sold recently also had PCCB original discs)

not the best of photos but gives you an idea



Slippydiff or anyone else with direct experience please shout up or PM me. cheers
Hi, I have a late 2006 7.1 GT3 with PCCB, what do you want to know exactly?

I have had one front disc replaced under warranty, had a freak incident where 3 of the retaining bolts (which connect rotor to hat) came loose and caused damage. Porsche said they had never seen that before and head office were all over it. Replaced under warranty no problems (only one side), said the other side was unworn. This was 2015 and no problems since. My car has done about 33k now.

I do have a bit of OCD if anyone has to take a wheel off (tyre changes etc), and always make sure they use 2 wheel guides to avoid chipping the discs. Don't use back street garages etc.

If you have 2 years of warranty then I wouldn't worry too much, also don't forget you can extend to 2021 also now the scheme is 15 years so I'd just do that and keep it standard. That's my plan anyway.

Porsche911R

21,146 posts

264 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
Porsche will not warranty a delaminated disk.

even this car disks are nackered and it's only done 5k miles and up for £180k

It's a risky business, the GT4 Silverstone pec car also had nackered disks, had a new set fitted and those are the new breed, put it this way if you track the car hard you will kill the disks it seems.
OK for road cars, seem pretty st for track cars which see heat.

this 991 RS link is an odd one has that's also lost the new shine the new style have at 2k miles, was it a PEC car as it is a cheap car for a RS atm, might be why it's £20k under other cars.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...


the 5K mile RS buyer beware those disks are gone !




Edited by Porsche911R on Friday 17th February 09:52

hondansx

4,562 posts

224 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
First thing i'd do is simply take them on and have an aftermarket brake set up instead.

Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
squirdan said:
I am currently mulling over a couple of 997.1 GT3s

One of them has PCCB

It has 37k miles on it and as a clubsport car I imagine will have done trackwork

Its from an OPC and hence has passed their 111pt check and comes with 2 yrs warranty

I've had a video of the car and cant see any obvious discolouration or flaking. Obviously I will look with my own eyes as well

I've read all of the most relevant threads on here and I am aware of the issues

BUT at the end of the day, if this is the car I want, and the discs look smooth and shiny, is there any reason not to buy it? (aware the 150k miles GT3 sold recently also had PCCB original discs)

not the best of photos but gives you an idea



Slippydiff or anyone else with direct experience please shout up or PM me. cheers
My experience differs from Chris W's in so far as the ST discs were slightly heavier than the 996 GT2 OE PCCBs. The 350mm steels were something horrendous like 12kgs each, the PCCBs 5.7kgs and the STs 6.5 kgs (so still a massive reduction in unsprung weight over the steels).

The method of production between the ST discs and the OE PCCB's differs massively. As Chris, said the PCCBs are formed of central lightweight substrate with two very thin wearing faces bonded onto that substrate. Once these discs reach a critical temperature they wear quickly due to oxidisation, and once the wear face has worn they start to delaminate very quickly.
Despite increasing the size of the discs on each generation, improving the internal venting arrangements and adding additional cold air ducting, the PCCB's just don't seem to have the ability to manage the heat build up serious track use generates.

The high miles Gen 1 997 GT3 sold recently with PCCB's was a road use only car, hence the discs will not have been run at consistently elevated temperatures, and thus they've survived intact to the high mileage seen on that particular car.

Porsche originally quoted a lifespan of over 100k miles for the first PCCB's, and I think on a standard road car, never used on track that would have been realistic (the Mk2 Cobalt blue 996 Mk2 GT3 that 911 Virgin sold some years ago with 180k miles on it, is testament to the durability of the PCCB's IF NOT tracked. The faces of the discs on that car were worn (viewed in the right light the faces were "wavey") BUT they'd not delaminated at all.

The ST discs are interwoven from cloth sheets from a base material of continuous carbon fibre to form a 3D multi-directional matrix, I've seen the process and the tooling, it's clever and back then was labour intensive. The curing process involves the use of a very nasty (lethal) gas (there was only one facility ion the UK that could undertake it, hence why early production was so slow) the process was than transferred over to the States and the production bottleneck removed.

The discs are incredibly hard and homogenous, I asked for mine to be drilled, firstly to improve wet weather brake performance, and secondly for aesthetics. It was a very expensive and time consuming process because the discs are SO hard, even using carbide tools, each hole required a new machine tip .....

ST experienced bedding problems with the early iterations (and they were experimenting with pad compounds, all of which were Pagid). I believe ALL the issues have been addressed now.

For road use only, the original PCCB's are fine (as long as they're in good condition when you purchase the car ie they haven't been heavily tracked) for consistently heavy track use, steels have to be the cheapest, most durable solution.

If you've bought a car with OE PCCBs that are close to their wear limits and propose doing 2,3,4 trackdays a year but also want to do a good few road miles, I'd remove the OE PCCB's, box them up and stick them in the attic and fit a set of ST discs and have the best of both worlds.

When/if you come to sell, I'd refit the OE PCCB's and sell the ST discs. The ST discs will have zero or minimal wear, they are THAT hard wearing.


Porsche911R

21,146 posts

264 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
A good 2 piece steel is a lot less weight than the oem 12.5kg weight quoted at 9.5kg(350mm) though and you are free you use a more track weighted pad like a RS29 or even a better race pad.

why fit ST disks for crazy money unless you have deep pockets ? What is a set £16k at a guess.

Best of both worlds or any world is a good AP/Brembo 2 piece steel imo, you save a bit of weight, prices are much cheaper, you have a free pad choice, you can buy cheaper outters only once worn, you can give your car to people to change wheels/tyres without cringing at how people bash ceramic's, a gravel visit is a non issue, the list goes on.



Edited by Porsche911R on Friday 17th February 11:08

Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
Porsche911R said:
A good 2 piece steel is a lot less weight than the oem 12.5kg weight quoted at 9.5kg(350mm) though and you are free you use a more track weighted pad like a RS29 or even a better race pad.
You can use pretty much any pads on the ST discs. And FWIW the RS29 IS an endurance race pad.

Porsche911R said:
why fit ST disks for crazy money unless you have deep pockets ? What is a set £16k at a guess.
Why buy a GT4 when you can have a Kia Picanto ? Because we have a choice, and we all choose to spend our money in any way we see fit, and not as you do/think we should.
I appreciate it's a tricky concept for you to grasp, but your opinion frequently differs to that of others. Cost maybe key to you (though of that I'm doubtful when it comes to spending money on cars) so I'm guessing it was just you being contrary for the sake of it ? It won't have been the first time, and I'm doubtful it'll be the last,

Porsche911R said:
Best of both worlds or any world is a good AP/Brembo 2 piece steel imo, you save a bit of weight, prices are much cheaper, you have a free pad choice, you can buy cheaper outters only once worn, you can give your car to people to change wheels/tyres without cringing at how people bash ceramic's, a gravel visit is a non issue, the list goes on.
As I explained in my previous post, the ST discs aren't manufactured in the same manner as the PCCB's, so even if the edges were to get chipped (they wouldn't) it wouldn't matter, there is no thin bonded wear face to delaminate. Hence why I stressed they're homogeneous. FYI dictionary definition "Having a common property throughout"
But failing that you could just find a decent tyre fitter and explain to them that use of the guide studs when changing wheels/tyre is imperative.

The ST discs are very hard wearing, so on the basis a standard PCCB disc will do 150-180k miles on a road use only car, I think it fair to say the ST discs would last at least twice that, and even if you should manage to accelerate their wear with a few trackdays annually, they could be resurfaced to further prolong their life.

How many PCCB equipped cars do you know of that have taken a trip into to the kitty litter and rendered one or more of PCCB discs unserviceable as result ?

The list of counterpoints to your non-issues is endless, but life's too short.

Oh yeh, edit to add : Quit stalking me !!

Edited by Slippydiff on Friday 17th February 17:56

Porsche911R

21,146 posts

264 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
"Cost maybe key to you (though of that I'm doubtful when it comes to spending money on cars) so I'm guessing it was just you being contrary for the sake of it "

yes I spend >50% of my income on car related items (I am crazy), but I cannot spend 20% of my cars value on a set of ST disks when for the reasons I pointed out a nice AP set up offers just about what any one could want.
So cost is key to me ;-) and I'll put it out there , cost is key for the bigger % of owners than not.

I speced my GT4 on steels (I have had it with PCCB for any track use), my Spyder has worn PCCB's @ 14k miles ! and that will end up on a 2 piece set up steel combo also. The cars worth £40k a set of disks is £20k , not a hard choice to make to choose a AP set up !

There is spending money on cars as a hobby and enjoyment and then there IS THROWING money at cars, I do the former not the latter.

I think most people who want to buy a fun GT3 for say £80k do NOT want to spend £20k on a set of disks what ever you say ;-p or how ever you big them up, or slag me off, sales of ST disks on GT3's must be on a very small % of cars.
I have yet to see a set on my travels.

what I do notice on track days is the amount of nackerd Porsche PCCB's though, the RS on 5k miles pic above as an example. hence why a lot of people do box up the PCCB disk and fit a AP steel and swap back come resale.

AS ever choice is upto the owners, I am pointing out owning a car with ceramic disks if you want to track a car can be VERY expensive, and buying a 2nd hand car like the RS above could be a £25k shocker !

I guess for the big earners £20k on a set of disks is peanuts and yes if you have the money do it, but again I tend to find the bigger earners buy newer cars like the 991 RS, not 10 year old 997's how ever good they might be.

ChrisW.

6,210 posts

254 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
Sometimes we do something for the experience ?

I bought one of the first i3's knowing that the experience would cost me money ??

As for cost:

1. Maybe the cost could be less than suggested ...
2. Brakes are a consumable ...
3. IF they last as long as suggested, will they have a resale value ?

In terms of actual cost we have:

A. Purchase price
B. Less normal consumption
C. Less resale value
D. Less the value of any additional performance ....

Who knows what that might actually be but ???

It may not be reckless !




ChrisW.

6,210 posts

254 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
Slippydiff said:
My experience differs from Chris W's in so far as the ST discs were slightly heavier than the 996 GT2 OE PCCBs. The 350mm steels were something horrendous like 12kgs each, the PCCBs 5.7kgs and the STs 6.5 kgs (so still a massive reduction in unsprung weight over the steels).

The method of production between the ST discs and the OE PCCB's differs massively. As Chris, said the PCCBs are formed of central lightweight substrate with two very thin wearing faces bonded onto that substrate. Once these discs reach a critical temperature they wear quickly due to oxidisation, and once the wear face has worn they start to delaminate very quickly.
Despite increasing the size of the discs on each generation, improving the internal venting arrangements and adding additional cold air ducting, the PCCB's just don't seem to have the ability to manage the heat build up serious track use generates.

The high miles Gen 1 997 GT3 sold recently with PCCB's was a road use only car, hence the discs will not have been run at consistently elevated temperatures, and thus they've survived intact to the high mileage seen on that particular car.

Porsche originally quoted a lifespan of over 100k miles for the first PCCB's, and I think on a standard road car, never used on track that would have been realistic (the Mk2 Cobalt blue 996 Mk2 GT3 that 911 Virgin sold some years ago with 180k miles on it, is testament to the durability of the PCCB's IF NOT tracked. The faces of the discs on that car were worn (viewed in the right light the faces were "wavey") BUT they'd not delaminated at all.

The ST discs are interwoven from cloth sheets from a base material of continuous carbon fibre to form a 3D multi-directional matrix, I've seen the process and the tooling, it's clever and back then was labour intensive. The curing process involves the use of a very nasty (lethal) gas (there was only one facility ion the UK that could undertake it, hence why early production was so slow) the process was than transferred over to the States and the production bottleneck removed.

The discs are incredibly hard and homogenous, I asked for mine to be drilled, firstly to improve wet weather brake performance, and secondly for aesthetics. It was a very expensive and time consuming process because the discs are SO hard, even using carbide tools, each hole required a new machine tip .....

ST experienced bedding problems with the early iterations (and they were experimenting with pad compounds, all of which were Pagid). I believe ALL the issues have been addressed now.

For road use only, the original PCCB's are fine (as long as they're in good condition when you purchase the car ie they haven't been heavily tracked) for consistently heavy track use, steels have to be the cheapest, most durable solution.

If you've bought a car with OE PCCBs that are close to their wear limits and propose doing 2,3,4 trackdays a year but also want to do a good few road miles, I'd remove the OE PCCB's, box them up and stick them in the attic and fit a set of ST discs and have the best of both worlds.

When/if you come to sell, I'd refit the OE PCCB's and sell the ST discs. The ST discs will have zero or minimal wear, they are THAT hard wearing.
Thanks Slippy,

Interesting ... my "less than the weight of PCCB's" came from the claimed 70% saving in mass over steels ... I have always thought that PCCB's were half the mass of steels smile


squirdan

Original Poster:

1,082 posts

146 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
ST discs for a 997 GT3 are £8k for the set of 4...not sure where your £20k came from David?


Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
squirdan said:
ST discs for a 997 GT3 are £8k for the set of 4...not sure where your £20k came from David?
I'm guessing the same place the legendary GT3 £10K refurb costs came from ! ! biggrin And the same place as "lots of GT3's have numerous owners, so by default that must mean they're owners didn't like them/they're hopeless cars" nonsense. rolleyes

Strange that GT4's seem to be racking up multiple owners too, despite them being less than 2 years old .... biggrin

These are just a few of the numerous myths/gems David has convinced himself to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth over the years, and tried to perpetuate hourly on these very pages until recently clap (all this despite his limited ownership of anything with a GT3 badge on the engine cover...) rofl

Haters will always be haters despite aspiring to a Gen 2 997 GT3 RS. Which we all know when he does finally step up to the plate, will be the best handling, fastest, greatest car ever. Period. Until he buys something else ..... hehe

And repeat ad infinitum......


S1MMA

2,378 posts

218 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
squirdan said:
ST discs for a 997 GT3 are £8k for the set of 4...not sure where your £20k came from David?
Link to ST site with prices for David

Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Friday 17th February 2017
quotequote all
Porsche911R said:
Do NOT want to spend £20k on a set of disks what ever you say
Keep digging ......



hehe