PCCB on a 56 reg GT3

[HokumPokum]

I didn't know the ST discs could use RS 29s as pads, I thought the pads were specific to ST and therefore came at inflated prices.

Also, presumably , there isn't a need to change at 50% pad wear.

[Slippydiff]

HokumPokum said:

I didn't know the ST discs could use RS 29s as pads, I thought the pads were specific to ST and therefore came at inflated prices.

Also, presumably , there isn't a need to change at 50% pad wear.

You can use pretty much any pad material with them, the compounds listed are the ones ST has found to provide good initial bite when cold, progressive CoF when hot etc :

https://surfacetransforms.com/white-papers/2013/5/...

As pads wear and get heat cycled their efficiency will drop, this becomes a vicious circle that overheats and wears PCCB's and steel discs more quickly. Less of an issue with the ST discs, but heat management of the pads will be improved with more material present.

[isaldiri]

HokumPokum said:

I didn't know the ST discs could use RS 29s as pads, I thought the pads were specific to ST and therefore came at inflated prices.

Also, presumably , there isn't a need to change at 50% pad wear.

JZM recommend pagid rsc1s I believe with the ST rotors.

[Fl0pp3r]

All said and done if I was doing *that* much track work and i ended up having to replace the PCCB's on the '3, I'd probably go for a steel Alcon setup for under £2k (not including pads).
https://uber9s.com/product/alcon-380mm-front-disc-...
https://uber9s.com/product/alcon-360-x-28mm-rear-b...

My preferred option however would be to refurb the PCCB's if that's possible still...

[Fl0pp3r]

...and on the topic of refurbs - will ST refurb PCCB discs as well as their own brand does anyone know? Am guessing not as it's a different construction process, but would be good to have that affirmatory slap in the face on here if anyone knows!

https://surfacetransforms.com/white-papers/2013/5/...
"ST’s next-generation carbon ceramic brake discs are designed for performance driving and the track day enthusiast. Due to their increased durability and reduced operating temperature they are ideal for regular track use, whilst still performing on the road. Even if your discs become worn, then ST offer a refurbishment process which can return your discs to their new condition, up to 5 times!"

[HokumPokum]

Fl0pp3r said:

All said and done if I was doing *that* much track work and i ended up having to replace the PCCB's on the '3, I'd probably go for a steel Alcon setup for under £2k (not including pads).
https://uber9s.com/product/alcon-380mm-front-disc-...
https://uber9s.com/product/alcon-360-x-28mm-rear-b...

My preferred option however would be to refurb the PCCB's if that's possible still...

if Alcon at 2k versus CCB at 8k, I would go CCB, steel discs have a shorter lifespan and can crack. If the CCB can be refurb up to 5 times, depending on refurb cost, it'll defo be more worthwhile. I suspect even on the first time, the CCB should last at least 3or 4times the Alcon.

The problem with track use is cracking. My track CSL has cracked performance friction discs every season. It's almost become an annual cost for me now.

[ChrisW.]

I've emailed my insurance company to see if fitting ST's constitutes a chargeable modification.

Somebody needs to show if these discs are all that they are claimed to be ...

I'd love to be that somebody ... can you imagine how much fun that would be in track days ?

And, to be fair, I have refurbished my CR PCCBs with SICOM so probably have an idea of what I'm talking about ...

2017 / 18 / 19 could be good years

[Slippydiff]

ChrisW. said:

I've emailed my insurance company to see if fitting ST's constitutes a chargeable modification.

Somebody needs to show if these discs are all that they are claimed to be ...

I'd love to be that somebody ... can you imagine how much fun that would be in track days ?

And, to be fair, I have refurbished my CR PCCBs with SICOM so probably have an idea of what I'm talking about ...

2017 / 18 / 19 could be good years

I know an individual who drove a Gen 1 997 GT3 fitted with the CCX ST discs : "Best brakes I've ever experienced" was the comment he made afterwards.
Good enough for a Konigsegegegegg ? tested by Alcon prior to putting their name to them, they should be more than ok on most Pork CW.... In fact I'd go so far as to say you'll be very impressed with them.
IIRC Konigesegegegg ran them to destruction by mistake. They wore the pads down to the backplates. The discs were returned to ST and refaced before going back on to the car....

[HokumPokum]

if that good why are not more manufacturers using this process as oem?

[ChrisW.]

Interesting .. I passengered with Mike Wilds in a 7'GT3 running ST's / posh suspension and slicks last year --- at first the car felt like a bag of nails --- particularly since the tyres were cold and Mike was warming them up by flexing the carcasses far beyond their design specifications ---

And then it came alive

Apparently Driuds is Mike's favourite corner !!

[Slippydiff]

HokumPokum said:

if that good why are not more manufacturers using this process as oem?

As I detailed in an earlier post, the manufacturing process was/is very labour intensive. But additionally there was massive bottleneck in the process whereby the discs were "cured" in a piece of equipment not dissimilar to an autoclave (the curing process is undertaken in an atmosphere that contains a lethal gas (could have been cyandide)) only Dunlop had the necessary piece of equipment in the UK, and it wasn't big enough to process large batches, added to which they were charging a massive premium knowing they had a monopoly.

ST courted several manufacturers at the same time as Porsche was experiencing issues with the SGL manufactured PCCBs,

http://www.sglgroup.de/cms/de/Produkte/Produktgrup...

all were interested, but ST was still in the early stages of development (and were short of capital) when it became clear that ST weren't in a position to supply large numbers of the product, I'm guessing they lost interest. But worse still Brembo were ramping up production of their ceramic discs

http://www.brembo.com/en/car/original-equipment/pr...

and had a far superior product than SGL (note NOT ST whose product is superior to both the SGL and Brembo products IMO), so Ferrari and Audi went with Brembo.
Brembo went on to buy out SGL

http://www.sglgroup.com/cms/international/press-lo...

so quite why Porsche use the inferior SGL type discs when Audi/Bentley/Lamborghini etc use the superior original Brembo type discs is complete mystery.

Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 18th February 23:15

[isaldiri]

Slippydiff said:

and were short of capital) when it became clear that ST weren't in a position to supply large numbers of the product, I'm guessing they lost interest. But worse still Brembo were ramping up production of their ceramic discs

http://www.brembo.com/en/car/original-equipment/pr...

and had a far superior product than SGL (note NOT ST whose product is superior to both the SGL and Brembo products IMO), so Ferrari and Audi went with Brembo.
Brembo went on to buy out SGL

http://www.sglgroup.com/cms/international/press-lo...

so quite why Porsche use the inferior SGL type discs when Audi/Bentley/Lamborghini etc use the superior original Brembo type discs is complete mystery.

I'm not so sure the Porsche SGL rotors are less good, certainly not now anyway. Brembo ccm rotors are still chopped fibres, simply without the additional outer flake layer on the SGL one. The brembo ccm rotors do not last long at all under track use, i can absolutely guarantee that. In the current 991/981 gen, it seems so far the Porsche SGL rotors have been remarkably wear resistant. It does help of course that the current pccb rotors are huge (410 front 380 rear) running on cars that are relatively underpowered compared to say a Mclaren or Ferrari so thermal capacity is much less of an issue when Porsche were running far smaller rotors.

[Slippydiff]

isaldiri said:

I'm not so sure the Porsche SGL rotors are less good, certainly not now anyway. Brembo ccm rotors are still chopped fibres, simply without the additional outer flake layer on the SGL one. The brembo ccm rotors do not last long at all under track use, i can absolutely guarantee that. In the current 991/981 gen, it seems so far the Porsche SGL rotors have been remarkably wear resistant. It does help of course that the current pccb rotors are huge (410 front 380 rear) running on cars that are relatively underpowered compared to say a Mclaren or Ferrari so thermal capacity is much less of an issue when Porsche were running far smaller rotors.

How many miles/days of track use are we talking ?

A large part of the problem is that Porsche started off with relatively small discs and they got progressively bigger (as owners squealed ever louder), whereas everyone else started off with huge discs from the offset ('cos they'd learnt from Stuttgart/SGL's issues ?) The 360 CS used Enzo items (380 x 34 front AND rear) that were huge compared with the 996 GT2 items.

[isaldiri]

Slippydiff said:

How many miles/days of track use are we talking ?

A large part of the problem is that Porsche started off with relatively small discs and they got progressively bigger (as owners squealed ever louder), whereas everyone else started off with huge discs from the offset ('cos they'd learnt from Stuttgart/SGL's issues ?) The 360 CS used Enzo items (380 x 34 front AND rear) that were huge compared with the 996 GT2 items.

You'd be lucky to get 6 full trackdays I think on the CCM Mclaren rotors. Certainly the rears will likely be gone before from what I have seen. At £2+k a disc, it kind of makes trackdays get expensive quite quickly... Interesting that Ferrari used Enzo sized rotors on the CS, didn't realise that. the cgt came after the gt2 right? At least it seems Porsche did twig on to that as the cgt came with 380 front and rear discs!

haven't heard of anyone needing to replace a rotor through wear from the 991gt3/rs/gt4 yet though...which is just as well as I heard the cost of replacement is pretty eye watering.

[Slippydiff]

ST and Alcon look to be supplying the ceramic brake package for the RB/Aston :

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-aston/aston-mar...

Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 20th February 16:11

[jfp]

Slippydiff said:

ST and Alcon look to be supplying the ceramic brake package for the BR/Aston :

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-aston/aston-mar...

Yup, its a good gig for us. Great car......

[jbaddeley]

This site might be useful to folks with PCCbs.

https://teile.com/en/porsche-parts-shop/model-911-...

[jbaddeley]

This site might be useful to folks with PCCbs.

https://teile.com/en/porsche-parts-shop/model-911-...

[ChrisW.]

Apart from old replacements (very useful) ... these prices seem very close to Surface Transform ... ?

[jbaddeley]

If you are under Porsche warranty then I presume the surface designs discs might be an issue. How much are they? I'll be on 350 fronts.