PCCB on a 56 reg GT3
Discussion
Fronts only listed currently :
https://surfacetransforms.com/porsche-996-brake-ki...
and a bit more than £2k per corner.
They should have the drawings/tooling for the 350mm rears too, as they did me a set 10+ years ago.
https://surfacetransforms.com/porsche-996-brake-ki...
and a bit more than £2k per corner.
They should have the drawings/tooling for the 350mm rears too, as they did me a set 10+ years ago.
As promised I'm updating now that I have the ST's fitted to the GT4.
Price for the set including new pads but not fitting (which should not be expensive) --- £10k.
But, a new set of PCCB's heavily discounted was £15k on a 997GT2 which has smaller brakes than this 410/390mm set-up.
To remind everybody, the ST's are solid long fibre carbon --- they are NOT a laminate. They cool better and if chipped can be skimmed. Should you run the pad material to the backing plate, the backing plate material can be skimmed off .. no lasting damage .. and I'm told that any pad material can be used (??)
I'm using Pagid RSC1 as recommended.
Bedding in to lap the mating surfaces is recommended for a couple of hundred miles of normal traffic --- and then a few big stops to fuse the resins ... to the point where the paint on the edge of the pads burns off ...
Yet to get there !
I'm building up the braking and at 100 miles of traffic am now making occasional use of the abs from low speeds ...
In the wet I should say that they resisted a real soaking better than the PCCB's --- they sound a little quieter and they are progressive with good weighting.
I'll be going out again today so it will interesting to see what they are like form cold now that they are part bedded in ...
'Will post some picks once I get my Photobucket account unlocked for use (they say they now need paying ??)
Price for the set including new pads but not fitting (which should not be expensive) --- £10k.
But, a new set of PCCB's heavily discounted was £15k on a 997GT2 which has smaller brakes than this 410/390mm set-up.
To remind everybody, the ST's are solid long fibre carbon --- they are NOT a laminate. They cool better and if chipped can be skimmed. Should you run the pad material to the backing plate, the backing plate material can be skimmed off .. no lasting damage .. and I'm told that any pad material can be used (??)
I'm using Pagid RSC1 as recommended.
Bedding in to lap the mating surfaces is recommended for a couple of hundred miles of normal traffic --- and then a few big stops to fuse the resins ... to the point where the paint on the edge of the pads burns off ...
Yet to get there !
I'm building up the braking and at 100 miles of traffic am now making occasional use of the abs from low speeds ...
In the wet I should say that they resisted a real soaking better than the PCCB's --- they sound a little quieter and they are progressive with good weighting.
I'll be going out again today so it will interesting to see what they are like form cold now that they are part bedded in ...
'Will post some picks once I get my Photobucket account unlocked for use (they say they now need paying ??)
The ceramic v steels debate has been pretty much exhausted on this forum but a track performance perspective, they offer no discernible benefit in outright pace and add unnecessary compromise. I prefer the more consistent pedal feel of the steel that retains its heat between applications. I cannot comment on road applications because I don't drive at speeds where either would make any difference.
If I were buying a car, ceramics wouldn't be a deal breaker for me but I'd have to factor in the cost of a set of decent steels to the purchase. If I did buy the car, the first thing that I would do would be to remove the discs and replace them with a set of Alcons.
If I were buying a car, ceramics wouldn't be a deal breaker for me but I'd have to factor in the cost of a set of decent steels to the purchase. If I did buy the car, the first thing that I would do would be to remove the discs and replace them with a set of Alcons.
I like PCCB's but don't like the risk of damaging them.
Discs are consumables ... my punt is that taking the long view the cost of new discs will be offset against the longevity of the ST's and so the advantages of carbon discs will cost me nothing.
My GT4 will never be used by me for racing ... I would like it to to be the very best road / track car in the ethos of club sport ...
We can ask the question of arithmetic again in 5 years ...
Discs are consumables ... my punt is that taking the long view the cost of new discs will be offset against the longevity of the ST's and so the advantages of carbon discs will cost me nothing.
My GT4 will never be used by me for racing ... I would like it to to be the very best road / track car in the ethos of club sport ...
We can ask the question of arithmetic again in 5 years ...
Steve Rance said:
The ceramic v steels debate has been pretty much exhausted on this forum but a track performance perspective, they offer no discernible benefit in outright pace and add unnecessary compromise. I prefer the more consistent pedal feel of the steel that retains its heat between applications. I cannot comment on road applications because I don't drive at speeds where either would make any difference.
If I were buying a car, ceramics wouldn't be a deal breaker for me but I'd have to factor in the cost of a set of decent steels to the purchase. If I did buy the car, the first thing that I would do would be to remove the discs and replace them with a set of Alcons.
OE SGB PCCB's yes.If I were buying a car, ceramics wouldn't be a deal breaker for me but I'd have to factor in the cost of a set of decent steels to the purchase. If I did buy the car, the first thing that I would do would be to remove the discs and replace them with a set of Alcons.
ST ceramics ? Well hopefully Chris and his experiences will provide a definitive answer.
Update ....
Just returned from two trackdays at Spa and Zandvoort --- the first with both the ST's and the suspension mods.
As it happened, at Zandvoort I gained another 2 seconds per lap and had a good play with a Toyota Touring car being driven by a rookie (as am I) ... now after the event down to 1:57.5 ... Spa was not so rewarding but that's just a great excuse to go back !!
On the subject of brakes ... having consumed half a set of PSCup2's in the two days, I would have expected new PCCB pads to have been almost half worn and even with two cooling down laps the pad material suffers thermal stress showing cracks that can turn the pad to the consistency of sugarcake ...
I had the car spanner checked yesterday ... to be told that the ST's with Pagid pads look like new and there is no discernible wear or stress to the pads themselves. Result !
Just returned from two trackdays at Spa and Zandvoort --- the first with both the ST's and the suspension mods.
As it happened, at Zandvoort I gained another 2 seconds per lap and had a good play with a Toyota Touring car being driven by a rookie (as am I) ... now after the event down to 1:57.5 ... Spa was not so rewarding but that's just a great excuse to go back !!
On the subject of brakes ... having consumed half a set of PSCup2's in the two days, I would have expected new PCCB pads to have been almost half worn and even with two cooling down laps the pad material suffers thermal stress showing cracks that can turn the pad to the consistency of sugarcake ...
I had the car spanner checked yesterday ... to be told that the ST's with Pagid pads look like new and there is no discernible wear or stress to the pads themselves. Result !
ChrisW. said:
Update ....
Just returned from two trackdays at Spa and Zandvoort --- the first with both the ST's and the suspension mods.
As it happened, at Zandvoort I gained another 2 seconds per lap and had a good play with a Toyota Touring car being driven by a rookie (as am I) ... now after the event down to 1:57.5 ... Spa was not so rewarding but that's just a great excuse to go back !!
On the subject of brakes ... having consumed half a set of PSCup2's in the two days, I would have expected new PCCB pads to have been almost half worn and even with two cooling down laps the pad material suffers thermal stress showing cracks that can turn the pad to the consistency of sugarcake ...
I had the car spanner checked yesterday ... to be told that the ST's with Pagid pads look like new and there is no discernible wear or stress to the pads themselves. Result !
Just returned from two trackdays at Spa and Zandvoort --- the first with both the ST's and the suspension mods.
As it happened, at Zandvoort I gained another 2 seconds per lap and had a good play with a Toyota Touring car being driven by a rookie (as am I) ... now after the event down to 1:57.5 ... Spa was not so rewarding but that's just a great excuse to go back !!
On the subject of brakes ... having consumed half a set of PSCup2's in the two days, I would have expected new PCCB pads to have been almost half worn and even with two cooling down laps the pad material suffers thermal stress showing cracks that can turn the pad to the consistency of sugarcake ...
I had the car spanner checked yesterday ... to be told that the ST's with Pagid pads look like new and there is no discernible wear or stress to the pads themselves. Result !
Excellent news Chris (but I have to say, no real surprise). My guess is the ST discs are far better able to shed heat (and have a higher CoF too) so the discs run cooler, and in turn the pads do too. End result, far lower wear rates to both pads and discs.
Long may it continue
Steve Rance said:
The ceramic v steels debate has been pretty much exhausted on this forum but a track performance perspective, they offer no discernible benefit in outright pace and add unnecessary compromise. I prefer the more consistent pedal feel of the steel that retains its heat between applications. I cannot comment on road applications because I don't drive at speeds where either would make any difference.
If I were buying a car, ceramics wouldn't be a deal breaker for me but I'd have to factor in the cost of a set of decent steels to the purchase. If I did buy the car, the first thing that I would do would be to remove the discs and replace them with a set of Alcons.
Someone who speaks sense!! If I were buying a car, ceramics wouldn't be a deal breaker for me but I'd have to factor in the cost of a set of decent steels to the purchase. If I did buy the car, the first thing that I would do would be to remove the discs and replace them with a set of Alcons.
Surface Transforms, the company announced on February 2, 2017...
QUOTE
SURFACE TRANSFORMS ON THE UP WITH NEW CONTRACT WIN
(ShareCast News) - Surface Transforms ticked higher on Thursday after the manufacturer of carbon fibre reinforced ceramic brake discs announced it had won a new contract to supply its product as part of construction of new limited edition car. The AIM-listed company has been selected as the tier two supplier to provide its carbon ceramic brake discs to a tier one brake system supplier for a UK original equipment manufacturer's car.
Surface Transform's production is expected to start in the 2018-19 financial year and the car is expected to be produced 2019 to mid 2020.
Including prototype and development revenues, the company expects revenues of about £1m during the production period.
All the road cars in the production run have already been pre-sold to end customers.
This contract is seen as strategically important as it is the company's first mainstream original equipment manufacturing contract success and reduces the company's risks to potential other original equipment manufacturing programme delays.
The company said that this was not one of the five potential contracts it had announced recently to shareholders and said that the delay in the start of production for the contract labelled OEM 1, has not yet been resolved but other potential contract wins are progressing in line with expectations.
Chief executive Kevin Johnson said: "This is another key milestone for the business. It is a significant short term win in its own right at an important period for the company. A tier two contract award for this high profile customer on this prestigious model advances our increasing reputation in the industry, and obviously, while this tier two supplier nomination solely relates to this model, we would hope to build on this foundation to extend our relationship with our tier one customer and original equipment manufacturer in the future."
Shares in Surface Transforms were up 10.64% to 23.65p at 0937 GMT.
Then next announcement on February 11, 2017
(ShareCast News) - Carbon fibre reinforced ceramic materials manufacturer Surface Transforms posted its half-year financial results for the six months to 30 November on Monday, with turnover decreasing to £0.33m from £0.78m in the first half of the prior year. The AIM-traded company said its total comprehensive loss widened to £0.98m, from £0.12m, with £0.31m of that difference related to the late receipt of a tax credit eventually received in January 2017.
Its loss before tax widened to £0.98m from £0.43m, and cash at 30 November was £2.7m, down from £4.78m at the start of the period.
Surface Transforms reported capital expenditure on property, plant and equipment of £0.68m during the period, which it said was mainly related to the new Knowsley facility, and an increased inventory of £0.19m to £0.76m.
Trading remained in line with management expectations, the board said.
On the operational front, production was now underway at the new Knowsley factory, the board confirmed, and post period end, the company won its first tier 2 supplier nomination to a UK automotive original equipment manufacturer.
"Historically, the company has generated increased revenues in the second half of the year, with the near equal split of sales in 2015-16 being unusual and reflecting the issues described above," commented chairman David Bundred.
"In the current financial year, the company expects to revert to the historic norm.
"Sales for the current financial year 2016-17 are expected to be comparable with the prior year on a like for like basis, allowing for the sales catch up, which in turn is offset by improved percentage gross margin."
END QUOTE
(BTW - Shares in Surface Transforms were down to 15.63p CoB Friday)
It looks like ChrisW's £10k helped their £330k last half year revenues.
Having been a passenger with ChrisW for a few laps around Spa last week I can testify that the ST disks will get a really good validation over the next year or so but I think also that it would be worth checking ST's business performance over the same period because they are a relatively small company looking to break into OEM markets.
QUOTE
SURFACE TRANSFORMS ON THE UP WITH NEW CONTRACT WIN
(ShareCast News) - Surface Transforms ticked higher on Thursday after the manufacturer of carbon fibre reinforced ceramic brake discs announced it had won a new contract to supply its product as part of construction of new limited edition car. The AIM-listed company has been selected as the tier two supplier to provide its carbon ceramic brake discs to a tier one brake system supplier for a UK original equipment manufacturer's car.
Surface Transform's production is expected to start in the 2018-19 financial year and the car is expected to be produced 2019 to mid 2020.
Including prototype and development revenues, the company expects revenues of about £1m during the production period.
All the road cars in the production run have already been pre-sold to end customers.
This contract is seen as strategically important as it is the company's first mainstream original equipment manufacturing contract success and reduces the company's risks to potential other original equipment manufacturing programme delays.
The company said that this was not one of the five potential contracts it had announced recently to shareholders and said that the delay in the start of production for the contract labelled OEM 1, has not yet been resolved but other potential contract wins are progressing in line with expectations.
Chief executive Kevin Johnson said: "This is another key milestone for the business. It is a significant short term win in its own right at an important period for the company. A tier two contract award for this high profile customer on this prestigious model advances our increasing reputation in the industry, and obviously, while this tier two supplier nomination solely relates to this model, we would hope to build on this foundation to extend our relationship with our tier one customer and original equipment manufacturer in the future."
Shares in Surface Transforms were up 10.64% to 23.65p at 0937 GMT.
Then next announcement on February 11, 2017
(ShareCast News) - Carbon fibre reinforced ceramic materials manufacturer Surface Transforms posted its half-year financial results for the six months to 30 November on Monday, with turnover decreasing to £0.33m from £0.78m in the first half of the prior year. The AIM-traded company said its total comprehensive loss widened to £0.98m, from £0.12m, with £0.31m of that difference related to the late receipt of a tax credit eventually received in January 2017.
Its loss before tax widened to £0.98m from £0.43m, and cash at 30 November was £2.7m, down from £4.78m at the start of the period.
Surface Transforms reported capital expenditure on property, plant and equipment of £0.68m during the period, which it said was mainly related to the new Knowsley facility, and an increased inventory of £0.19m to £0.76m.
Trading remained in line with management expectations, the board said.
On the operational front, production was now underway at the new Knowsley factory, the board confirmed, and post period end, the company won its first tier 2 supplier nomination to a UK automotive original equipment manufacturer.
"Historically, the company has generated increased revenues in the second half of the year, with the near equal split of sales in 2015-16 being unusual and reflecting the issues described above," commented chairman David Bundred.
"In the current financial year, the company expects to revert to the historic norm.
"Sales for the current financial year 2016-17 are expected to be comparable with the prior year on a like for like basis, allowing for the sales catch up, which in turn is offset by improved percentage gross margin."
END QUOTE
(BTW - Shares in Surface Transforms were down to 15.63p CoB Friday)
It looks like ChrisW's £10k helped their £330k last half year revenues.
Having been a passenger with ChrisW for a few laps around Spa last week I can testify that the ST disks will get a really good validation over the next year or so but I think also that it would be worth checking ST's business performance over the same period because they are a relatively small company looking to break into OEM markets.
Slippydiff said:
My guess is the ST discs are far better able to shed heat (and have a higher CoF too) so the discs run cooler, and in turn the pads do too. End result, far lower wear rates to both pads and discs.
Wouldn't higher CoF mean higher operating temperatures for the rotors and pads rather than cooler temps?isaldiri said:
Slippydiff said:
My guess is the ST discs are far better able to shed heat (and have a higher CoF too) so the discs run cooler, and in turn the pads do too. End result, far lower wear rates to both pads and discs.
Wouldn't higher CoF mean higher operating temperatures for the rotors and pads rather than cooler temps?Slippydiff said:
Quite possibly, but you'll struggle to overheat the discs as they're far more efficient than the PCCB's when it comes to dissipating heat.
An interesting adventure ... the ST's actually feel much colder to the touch ... they are metallic in character rather than plastic (of the PCCB's) ... if that makes sense.I was talking to an engineer who looks after the Ferrari FXX cars which have sold carbon discs --- apparently they find that these last three seasons without issue --- and we could see these glowing white hot at the braking zone into The Bus Stop at Spa !
Slippydiff said:
gtsralph said:
but I think also that it would be worth checking ST's business performance over the same period because they are a relatively small company looking to break into OEM markets.
T'was ever thus. nothing's changed.
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