Class of use question - council wont tell me!

Class of use question - council wont tell me!

Author
Discussion

voicey

Original Poster:

2,453 posts

186 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
In my seemingly ever ending search for premises, I have found somewhere that I really like. The agent couldn't confirm the class of use at the viewing so I thought I'd call the planning department. They told me that they couldn't accept such requests over the phone and I would have to email it in. Fair enough, I pinged them an email and got this reply...

Planning Dept said:
In these cases the Estate Agents marketing of a commercial property usually covers the use class sufficiently. It is not the Councils procedure to informally advise you of the current Lawful Use Class and in order for us to be able to sustain our service the Council has altered its approach to the provision of such advice. If you require a formal decision as to whether the proposed use is covered by the current Use Class of the property, you should now apply for a Certificate of Lawfulness (Proposed Use/Development). We have a statutory requirement to determine your application within 8 weeks but it is our aim to provide you with a decision much earlier.
I found it astonishing that they wouldn't just tell me what the current class of use is - surely this is public information! Furthermore they want me to rely on the agent!

Is this normal? I searched the planning register but the only things listed for the this property were for alterations to the building. I cannot find what class it currently has.

Does anyone have any advice on how I should proceed? If I applied for a Certificate of Lawfulness and the class wasn't correct then wouldn't I have to apply for a Change of Use? This could take ages!

Cheers...

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
What's the charge for the Certificate then?

voicey

Original Poster:

2,453 posts

186 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
What's the charge for the Certificate then?
Looks to be £385.

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
voicey said:
Looks to be £385.
yikes

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
Maybe ask the landlord/vendor to provide evidence of approved use?

Mandat

3,878 posts

237 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
If you read between the lines, the council's e-mail is very clear.

They do not have the resources to answer every query, such as yours, and are looking to recover their time costs via the application process.

To wit; they want your money.

covmutley

3,012 posts

189 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
The issue is that they don't know what the use is. There is no register as such.

They would have to research it and also visit the site to investigate how it is being used before they can tell you properly. Hence the fee.

Why do you need to know the use? Is it not clear?

voicey

Original Poster:

2,453 posts

186 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
covmutley said:
The issue is that they don't know what the use is. There is no register as such.
Firstly, thank you for your reply. This surprises me and at the same time I'm not surprised!

covmutley said:
They would have to research it and also visit the site to investigate how it is being used before they can tell you properly. Hence the fee.
Understood.

covmutley said:
Why do you need to know the use? Is it not clear?
I am looking for premises to operate a car workshop/sales site which I understand to fall under B2. The premises have previously been occupied by one company since it was built (they own the unit). My guess is that their activity could fall under B1 or B2.

Also looking at the previous planning applications, there appears to be restrictions on the times the premises can be in use as there has been an application to vary the times (which was withdrawn). I asked the council about the use class and any restrictions. I'm happy with the times a sit would force me to go home and take time off on Sundays.

The unit is for sale so I don't want to spunk all my cash on it and then find out I can't use it!

surveyor

17,767 posts

183 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
voicey said:
covmutley said:
The issue is that they don't know what the use is. There is no register as such.
Firstly, thank you for your reply. This surprises me and at the same time I'm not surprised!

covmutley said:
They would have to research it and also visit the site to investigate how it is being used before they can tell you properly. Hence the fee.
Understood.

covmutley said:
Why do you need to know the use? Is it not clear?
I am looking for premises to operate a car workshop/sales site which I understand to fall under B2. The premises have previously been occupied by one company since it was built (they own the unit). My guess is that their activity could fall under B1 or B2.

Also looking at the previous planning applications, there appears to be restrictions on the times the premises can be in use as there has been an application to vary the times (which was withdrawn). I asked the council about the use class and any restrictions. I'm happy with the times a sit would force me to go home and take time off on Sundays.

The unit is for sale so I don't want to spunk all my cash on it and then find out I can't use it!
Offer 'Subject to Planning Approval' Not unusual

voicey

Original Poster:

2,453 posts

186 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
surveyor said:
Offer 'Subject to Planning Approval' Not unusual
Thanks.

One more question - what sort of professional should I be engaging to help with the planning application?

surveyor

17,767 posts

183 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
quotequote all
voicey said:
surveyor said:
Offer 'Subject to Planning Approval' Not unusual
Thanks.

One more question - what sort of professional should I be engaging to help with the planning application?
Planning Consultant - although you may find the selling agent will help depending on whether they are from a big firm or a smaller general practice.

covmutley

3,012 posts

189 months

Monday 20th February 2017
quotequote all
Car sales is a 'sui generis' use, so to fall under the workshop use, sales would have to be ancillary to the main workshop use.

That would probably mean no (or v limited) forecourt sales and by appointment viewing only.

If buying, I would do the certificate to avoid any problems

grantSQ

9 posts

101 months

Monday 20th February 2017
quotequote all
OP, you mention a withdrawn application to amend hours of operation - without knowing the history my guess would be that this would've been an application to amend a condition of a previous permission, quite possibly the original permission, the file for which will include reference to the relevant (now established) use class. The description of development on that withdrawn application should mention the reference number of the previous permission it is seeking to amend - that should be your starting place.

Re the use classes of your proposals, the car repair element is B2 but car sales is sui generis (i.e. A standalone use which falls outside the other classes of development).

Not helpful feedback from the planning authority and I would suggest you (or the selling agent if they've access to planning advice and are helpful) get some planning advice before having further contact with them.

The CLOPUD route will only work if (1) you can establish the existing use as B2 and (2) you can convince them that the primary use of your proposal is the car repairs (B2), the car sales merely being "ancillary". If you can't establish these two points your application will most likely be refused and any costs you'd incurred are lost (application fee can be substantial depending on the scale of development you're looking at).

You'd then have to make a new application for a change of use (further application fee), which opens up the potential of additional constraints being imposed on your operations (and of course, of refusal, particularly if the planning authority has a shortage of employment land and/or the site is the subject of a specific land use designation (or for a variety of other reasons)). It may be that going straight to the change of use application is the best option though, saving you money on the CLOPUD.

Not seeking to put you off, more encouraging you (via the selling agents if possible, if there's been fairly limited interest in the site) to seek specialist input and to take the previous advice about any offer being subject to planning.

I'm a planning consultant based in Scotland. PM me if you want any general advice but for more detailed input I'd strongly recommend you employ someone, ideally with an established relationship with the planning authority. Best of luck with it.

Johnniem

2,660 posts

222 months

Tuesday 21st February 2017
quotequote all
voicey said:
I am looking for premises to operate a car workshop/sales site which I understand to fall under B2. The premises have previously been occupied by one company since it was built (they own the unit). My guess is that their activity could fall under B1 or B2.
What is their business? I have a Use Classes Order chart on my desk at all times so may be able to help. Have you not phoned the owner and asked? This may have already been asked so apologies if that's the case.

JM