Ceramic Brakes on used 997 Turbo. Reliability?

[Andrew911]

Hi folks,

Going to look at a 997.1 turbo with ceramic brakes. I have limited knowledge on these apart from no brake dust & superior braking than steels. But also I'am guessing mega expensive to replace/repair? Are they prone to failure or require repair/replacing? Are they more fragile than steels?

[Porsche911R]

They can last from 2k miles to 150k miles so not easy to say.

[Koln-RS]

On a road car like a 997 Turbo you should get all the benefits - lightweight for better handling, no brake dust or rust, long life (100k mls +) on the discs, pads normal I think, nice yellow callipers.....

[Slippydiff]

Andrew911 said:

Hi folks,

Going to look at a 997.1 turbo with ceramic brakes. I have limited knowledge on these apart from no brake dust & superior braking than steels. But also I'am guessing mega expensive to replace/repair? Are they prone to failure or require repair/replacing? Are they more fragile than steels?

Your intented usage (% track/road driving) will enable a more insightful answer to be given, as opposed to the generic and largely unhelpful ramblings by PH's resident "expert"

[gbrown2014]

It very much depends on how the car has been used, they seem to have a temperature limit which when breached will cause them to wear at an accelerated rate (i.e extended track use). If the car isnt tracked it's unlikely this will have occurred and thus they will go 150k+ with minimal maintenance.

with PCCB's it makes sense the get an inspection as if they are dodgy you could save yourself a 7k+ bill

[Andrew911]

Yep, to add, probably no track days tbh. i keep meaning to do track days & never seem to find the time etc. So, probably fair to say road use only. Sounds like a good option to have then. I heard the only main issue is to be careful when removing a wheel as to not damage the discs etc.

[Porsche911R]

Slippydiff said:

Your intented usage (% track/road driving) will enable a more insightful answer to be given, as opposed to the generic and largely unhelpful ramblings by PH's resident "expert"

It has nothing to do with his intended use !!! he wants to buy one !! please don't troll and ruin yet another thread, it's dull and tiresome.

I have seen loads of 997.2 Turbo's with laminated pccb, often caused by rich people who think they can do a hours stint on a track day with zero cooling ! it only takes 1 or 2 events to ruin a PCCB, that RS for sale has 5k miles and the disks are screwed.

a 997.1 PCCB car will have worn PCCB's that's a given (how much is an open question), and if the OP does not know what to check, it's best to get an inspection done as a set is £16k

Next you will be saying , it's a non issue you can spend £20k on some surface transform replacement ones !

Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 2nd March 15:28

[Slippydiff]

Andrew911 said:

Hi folks,

Going to look at a 997.1 turbo with ceramic brakes. I have limited knowledge on these apart from no brake dust & superior braking than steels. But also I'am guessing mega expensive to replace/repair? Are they prone to failure or require repair/replacing? Are they more fragile than steels?

Porsche911R said:

It has nothing to do with his intended use !!! he wants to buy one !!

I suggest you read the OP's post again David, then read it again slowly just to be on the safe side. All good ? OK, lets assume the OP is an intelligent individual, (and as he's taken the trouble to ask the question on here in the first place, that seems a sensible assumption).

Having garnered other individuals views he'll no doubt carry out his own due diligence to establish that the PCCB's on the car in question are serviceable. On that basis it has EVERYTHING to do with his intended use.

Firstly, the OP's asked if they're more fragile than steels, I think it's safe to assume he won't be too concerned by what's gone before, but he will be far more concerned about what may happen to the the discs in the future.

So let's address that. Yes they can be damaged by careless fitters not using the correct mounting guides when changing wheels and tyres. On that basis you'll need to establish the company's and the individual's knowledge of PCCB's before letting them remove and refit the wheels to the car. If they seem clueless, you're probably better off finding a more professional establishment better versed in all things Porsche.

Secondly. Are they mega expensive to replace/repair? Yes. IF you damage them or wear them out they will be. Both are unlikely scenarios as you've said you're not going to be tracking the car. If you were really unlucky, in road use you may get a stone trapped between the caliper and the disc which could render it unserviceable. There are plenty of owners on here who've driven many, many miles without ANY issues whatsoever. Read into that what you will.

Thirdly. Are they prone to failure or require repair/replacing. As you'll not be tracking the car they can be expected to last many, many thousands of miles. I know of two road only driven GT3's (and have seen the discs on both of them) that have covered in excess of 150k miles. All the discs were still serviceable. Again, read into that what you will.

Porsche911R said:

Next you will be saying , it's a non issue you can spend £20k on some surface transform replacement ones !

Andrew, my apologies for our learned friend's ramblings, there is an alternative to the OE PCCB's. Unfortunately despite another individual kindly and helpfully posting a direct link to the vendor's website which shows their prices, David is either illiterate or has chosen to post misinformation for his own agenda, unfortunately no one else is party to said agenda. So despite him stating the alternatives cost £16k one minute and £20k the next, they don't. Their prices can be found here :

https://surfacetransforms.com/porsche-997-brake-ki...

And I've elucidated on them in this thread :

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Porsche911R said:

I have seen loads of 997.2 Turbo's with laminated pccb, often caused by rich people who think they can do a hours stint on a track day with zero cooling ! it only takes 1 or 2 events to ruin a PCCB, that RS for sale has 5k miles and the disks are screwed.

They're all laminated, it's how they're made. So I'm guessing you mean de-laminated ?

Porsche911R said:

It's best to get an inspection done

That's a given, so perhaps you should credit the OP with more intelligence than you've displayed in this thread so far.....

Porsche911R said:

Please don't troll and ruin yet another thread, it's dull and tiresome.

More than happy to discuss the above face to face with you at Oulton David. But I'd suggest you read and consider these two threads before you post further on the matter :

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing//topic.asp?h=0&...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=152...

There is indeed a troll on the PH Porsche forum, but I think you'd be deluded to think it's anyone else other than you. But as I said, I'll be more than happy to discuss any grievances you have with me face to face at Oulton on the 10th.

[paul789]

Slippydiff said:

Andrew911 said:

Hi folks,

Going to look at a 997.1 turbo with ceramic brakes. I have limited knowledge on these apart from no brake dust & superior braking than steels. But also I'am guessing mega expensive to replace/repair? Are they prone to failure or require repair/replacing? Are they more fragile than steels?

Porsche911R said:

It has nothing to do with his intended use !!! he wants to buy one !!

I suggest you read the OP's post again David, then read it again slowly just to be on the safe side. All good ? OK, lets assume the OP is an intelligent individual, (and as he's taken the trouble to ask the question on here in the first place, that seems a sensible assumption).

Having garnered other individuals views he'll no doubt carry out his own due diligence to establish that the PCCB's on the car in question are serviceable. On that basis it has EVERYTHING to do with his intended use.

Firstly, the OP's asked if they're more fragile than steels, I think it's safe to assume he won't be too concerned by what's gone before, but he will be far more concerned about what may happen to the the discs in the future.

So let's address that. Yes they can be damaged by careless fitters not using the correct mounting guides when changing wheels and tyres. On that basis you'll need to establish the company's and the individual's knowledge of PCCB's before letting them remove and refit the wheels to the car. If they seem clueless, you're probably better off finding a more professional establishment better versed in all things Porsche.

Secondly. Are they mega expensive to replace/repair? Yes. IF you damage them or wear them out they will be. Both are unlikely scenarios as you've said you're not going to be tracking the car. If you were really unlucky, in road use you may get a stone trapped between the caliper and the disc which could render it unserviceable. There are plenty of owners on here who've driven many, many miles without ANY issues whatsoever. Read into that what you will.

Thirdly. Are they prone to failure or require repair/replacing. As you'll not be tracking the car they can be expected to last many, many thousands of miles. I know of two road only driven GT3's (and have seen the discs on both of them) that have covered in excess of 150k miles. All the discs were still serviceable. Again, read into that what you will.

Porsche911R said:

Next you will be saying , it's a non issue you can spend £20k on some surface transform replacement ones !

Andrew, my apologies for our learned friend's ramblings, there is an alternative to the OE PCCB's. Unfortunately despite another individual kindly and helpfully posting a direct link to the vendor's website which shows their prices, David is either illiterate or has chosen to post misinformation for his own agenda, unfortunately no one else is party to said agenda. So despite him stating the alternatives cost £16k one minute and £20k the next, they don't. Their prices can be found here :

https://surfacetransforms.com/porsche-997-brake-ki...

And I've elucidated on them in this thread :

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Porsche911R said:

I have seen loads of 997.2 Turbo's with laminated pccb, often caused by rich people who think they can do a hours stint on a track day with zero cooling ! it only takes 1 or 2 events to ruin a PCCB, that RS for sale has 5k miles and the disks are screwed.

They're all laminated, it's how they're made. So I'm guessing you mean de-laminated ?

Porsche911R said:

It's best to get an inspection done

That's a given, so perhaps you should credit the OP with more intelligence than you've displayed in this thread so far.....

Porsche911R said:

Please don't troll and ruin yet another thread, it's dull and tiresome.

More than happy to discuss the above face to face with you at Oulton David. But I'd suggest you read and consider these two threads before you post further on the matter :

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing//topic.asp?h=0&...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=152...

There is indeed a troll on the PH Porsche forum, but I think you'd be deluded to think it's anyone else other than you. But as I said, I'll be more than happy to discuss any grievances you have with me face to face at Oulton on the 10th.

Fascinating! Do you guys actually know each other in the real world?

I'd love to go to one of these ph events, for me ph is purely online but getting so exercised about some else's PCCBs! Wtaf?!

If you do meet up and carry this on will it be 2 be-goateed, lego boycotting directors rutting like stags or tank-tops at dawn?

[Koln-RS]

Welcome to PH. Mr D (Porsche911R) is infamous in these parts for presenting opinion as fact. It's all friendly banter

[Slippydiff]

paul789 said:

Fascinating! Do you guys actually know each other in the real world?

I'd love to go to one of these ph events, for me ph is purely online but getting so exercised about some else's PCCBs! Wtaf?!

If you do meet up and carry this on will it be 2 be-goateed, lego boycotting directors rutting like stags or tank-tops at dawn?

Well, sorry to rain on your parade, but we have met in real life, and said individuals bark is far, far worse than his bite.

So any preconceptions you may have of these :



at :



are ill-founded I'm afraid

[KungFuPanda]

Just to bring this back on topic, what is the way to determine whether carbon ceramic discs are indeed shot?

- Visual inspection if you know what you're looking for.

- Don't some have inspection "dots" to show that they're worn?

- Take them off the car and weigh them to see how much material is left?

[Slippydiff]

They should be weighed to establish the degree of wear. But a visual inspection will tell you whether they're badly oxidised and starting to delaminate.
Porsche issued a technical bulletin for 996 (all generations of PCCBs) that gave the guidelines for what was and wasn't acceptable levels of de-lamination. I've not seen a similar document for 997 PCCB's, though that's not to say one exists.

[ChrisW.]

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...


Worth a look, even though SICOM seem no longer to be working in our area ---

Slippy recently posted a site offering deep discounts on legacy PCCB replacements (off OPC list) --- and to set a comparison I am fitting new ST's to my GT4 --- which fitted should be close to £10k --- but I will box up the very good standard discs so that they are ready fro the next 100k miles of normal use !

I say close to, because the new pads alone are £750 !

As for the discs ? I'm told they will last me out !!

[Lancerlot]

Andrew911 said:

Hi folks,

Going to look at a 997.1 turbo with ceramic brakes. I have limited knowledge on these apart from no brake dust & superior braking than steels. But also I'am guessing mega expensive to replace/repair? Are they prone to failure or require repair/replacing? Are they more fragile than steels?

My last 4 high performance cars have been fitted with CCB's and they are without doubt superb. They are however prone to squealing intermittently and rear pads wear down and need regular replacement due to PTV or you'll end up damaging the rotors. So check the pads for wear and the rotors for scoring (inner & outer surfaces). There are small circular wear indicators within the friction surfaces and these should be without any rough surfaces.

I would guess I've probably driven around 300,000 miles on CCB's over the last few years and have had no problems whatsoever. If they're in good nick when you buy it, you should be fine.

[pete]

I have a very late 996 Turbo S (2005) which is still on its original PCCB discs after 71k miles with no signs of delamination. I'm sure they are worn, but they are showing no signs of imminently wearing out, probably down the car having done lots of road miles. Provided you don't let the pads wear too low, and know how to treat them if you do use them on track (short sessions, short/hard braking rather than riding the brakes, and gentle cooling down laps) then there's nothing to fear. Just make sure you get a *really* thorough inspection before you buy, then you can reap the benefits for road use.

The only disadvantage I've experienced with PCCBs is that they can feel a little dead for the first application, especially in wet and cold conditions. You find you have to give them a bit more of a prod at the first stop, after which they work beautifully. This is worse on my older 996 with first-gen discs compared to my previous 2007 GT3, but not a problem given the other advantages.

Edited by pete on Friday 3rd March 11:28

[Flying machine]

pete said:

The only disadvantage I've experienced with PCCBs is that they can feel a little dead for the first application, especially in wet and cold conditions. You find you have to give them a bit more of a prod at the first stop, after which they work beautifully. This is worse on my older 996 with first-gen discs compared to my previous 2007 GT3, but not a problem given the other advantages.

Edited by pete on Friday 3rd March 11:28

This is something that I've noticed too - I've got ceramics on my 981 - and found that they don't bite as hard as might be expected in the wet. That said they're superb in the dry, but if I'm honest I don't notice much difference between them and the steels on other Porsche's I've driven, so for road use I can't imagine it's a big issue. They look good though and there is no brake dust on the wheels!

[IMI A]

Which car is it that you're looking at OP? If its midnight blue with tan and 36k miles the car was tuned by Cargraphic and the original owner spent about £50,000 on these upgrades including upgrading the suspension. There was even a feature on it in 911 and Porsche World. Car may have now been returned to stock but its had a CEL light that her past few owners haven't managed to get rid of. Probably nothing serious but defo worth getting it checked out by someone who specialises in turbos like 9e, JZM etc.

[Andrew911]

IMI A said:

Which car is it that you're looking at OP? If its midnight blue with tan and 36k miles the car was tuned by Cargraphic and the original owner spent about £50,000 on these upgrades including upgrading the suspension. There was even a feature on it in 911 and Porsche World. Car may have now been returned to stock but its had a CEL light that her past few owners haven't managed to get rid of. Probably nothing serious but defo worth getting it checked out by someone who specialises in turbos like 9e, JZM etc.

Did the deed on friday. 981 Spyder sold & 997 turbo bought from JZM.

[IMI A]

Andrew911 said:

IMI A said:

Which car is it that you're looking at OP? If its midnight blue with tan and 36k miles the car was tuned by Cargraphic and the original owner spent about £50,000 on these upgrades including upgrading the suspension. There was even a feature on it in 911 and Porsche World. Car may have now been returned to stock but its had a CEL light that her past few owners haven't managed to get rid of. Probably nothing serious but defo worth getting it checked out by someone who specialises in turbos like 9e, JZM etc.

Did the deed on friday. 981 Spyder sold & 997 turbo bought from JZM.

They always stock very nice cars - is the turbo a manual too?