I doubt i will ever own a new GT car

[Jumpingjackflash]

ORD said:

I fundamentally disagree. It is none of Porsche's business what we do with our cars. I could buy a 911 R and push it off a cliff for a laugh. That is what ownership means.

If Porsche wants to sell GT cars subject to a condition that they not be sold on within x years, they can put that in the contract of sale (or try to - it might be unlawful).

If you push your 911R off a cliff, sell it or crash it then fair enough thats your business but you should be at the bottom of the next waiting list. It is the same with a Rolex Daytona. I am on a waiting list but there are loads for sale £5k above retail! People are getting them and selling them for a profit. That is fine and as you say their business. It wouldn't bother me if I knew that person would be at the bottom of the next waiting list.

If I was lucky to get a GT car and decided I wanted to sell it and try an Aston or Ferrari etc but made a mistake and wanted a Porsche GT car again then I would need to accept I am now bottom of the list because I had one and it is someone else turn.

Edited by Jumpingjackflash on Tuesday 28th March 12:31

[Taffy66]

[quote=OR

If Porsche wants to sell GT cars subject to a condition that they not be sold on within x years, they can put that in the contract of sale (or try to - it might be unlawful).

[/quote]

There is a perfectly commonplace 100% cast iron clad clause where the vendor(OPC) has a "first refusal" to purchase the car from the buyer for a pre-agreed length of time at an independently verified valuation. If Porsche UK insisted on this they would eradicate all flippers in one fell swoop..!.This cannot be breached and would give Porsche total control of the GT Porsches and their values.
This is what i would do in Porsche's situation although i suspect Porsche secretly allow the overs as it gives good publicity and raises the public perception of Porsches status symbolic image...

[Digga]

Taffy66 said:

There is a perfectly commonplace 100% cast iron clad clause where the vendor(OPC) has a "first refusal" to purchase the car from the buyer for a pre-agreed length of time at an independently verified valuation. If Porsche UK insisted on this they would eradicate all flippers in one fell swoop..!.This cannot be breached and would give Porsche total control of the GT Porsches and their values.
This is what i would do in Porsche's situation although i suspect Porsche secretly allow the overs as it gives good publicity and raises the public perception of Porsches status symbolic image...

Plus they're milking a lot of the profit our of the flippers in the first place, by getting them to jump through heavily depreciating 'hoops'.

[cypriot]

I just don't get what all the moaning is about. Porsche sells cars as a business, and in reality, thats all they could rightly be expected to care about. Porsche is actually doing quite a few people a favour by at least attempting to create a system that will benefit people who have historically bought and owned porsches. Yes, its not perfect by any means, but they are not obliged to do so in the first place, as the demand outstrips the supply something like 10 times, so they can just sell them to first people through the door, or just increase the list price by 50k. That difference in demand and supply by definition mean 90% of the people who want a new GT car will be disappointed - hence most of the forum posts are of people moaning about not getting one. That is just the harsh reality: Porsche decide to make an X amount of GT cars, and then sell them, knowing full well that they will not satisfy demand (something they NOT obliged to do btw). All this moaning about not being accepted is just a load of crap: if someone is seriously that hell bent on getting a GT car, just get a used one which are still at list price. The fact that most moaners don't, seems to me that they themselves are not into fact "enthusiasts" but just people who want to benefit from "free motoring" not the ownership experience of the car itself. Rant over.

[LordHaveMurci]

Jumpingjackflash said:

If I bought a GT car but sold it then I know I have had my chance and wouldn't get another. That is the way it should be.

If you sold it through your mate at the OPC so they could pocket a tidy profit too then I can't see it being an issue at all, quite the opposite in fact

[Jack drinker]

hornbaek said:

As with all business deals where you get ahead of the crowd it is about relationship building. I fundamentally disagree putting down deposits on cars that have not yet been announced - that just looks like desperation. I think we will soon enough revert to more normal times where manufacturers start valuing your custom and start offering a real service other than being the custodians of rare artefacts which allows them to be arrogant.

Well said sir

[supermono]

For the avoidance of doubt I'm not moaning about Porsche's business model -- it's up to them who they sell to obviously. I do object to them claiming to be tackling flippers and profiteering whilst selling exclusively to those most likely to flip and profiteer.

That's all.

[Porsche911R]

supermono said:

For the avoidance of doubt I'm not moaning about Porsche's business model -- it's up to them who they sell to obviously. I do object to them claiming to be tackling flippers and profiteering whilst selling exclusively to those most likely to flip and profiteer.

That's all.

Porsche have no say who gets cars, there are only 2 or 3 Porsche owned sales outlets, and I guess they have VIP clients, all the rest are franchise dealers.

[mdianuk]

GT cars sold to dealer best customers, shock horror; they are a business, not a charity. If said customers flip their GT cars back to the same dealer in order to fund other cars from the same dealer, then that's just makes the relationship stronger, despite the general view that selling for profit is BAD! Porsche make GT cars that are both exceptional to drive, and almost guarantee a return list or for profit; win win either way for those lucky enough.

[Murcielago_Boy]

Just buy a 918. Or a Cup car from Porsche Motorsport.
You'll get whatever Porsche you want.


Same as Ferrari.
Sign up to throw money into a huge incinerator, sorry, I mean Corse Clienti, and you can have anything - LaFerrari/TDF etc. You could do what's being suggested by others here - someone I know got a LaF by buying 18 Maseratis in 2 years together with 2-3 V12 Ferraris too....
..... but my route is far more direct!

And buy LHD for goodness sake - more availability, dealers and less agro - and the cars are no problem in the UK - learn to drive!

[n17ves]

mdianuk said:

GT cars sold to dealer best customers, shock horror; they are a business, not a charity. If said customers flip their GT cars back to the same dealer in order to fund other cars from the same dealer, then that's just makes the relationship stronger, despite the general view that selling for profit is BAD! Porsche make GT cars that are both exceptional to drive, and almost guarantee a return list or for profit; win win either way for those lucky enough.

Correct, but its the franchise dealer that's profiting with this sell back relationship and not Porsche themselves and this is very damaging to Porsche the brand! Already several people have blamed Porsche in this thread when it is in fact the franchised dealership that dictates rightly or wrongly who gets car.

For the record Porsche is against flipping of cars, in particular reselling GT cars whilst they are still in production. Unfortunately this hasn't stopped some franchises selling GT cars under the radar.

And with regards to the OP question.... my OPC wont tell me in writing what the criteria is to secure any GT car going forward.

[Koln-RS]

Surely this is just an exceptional phase we're going through - buoyant economy, low interest rates, mental demand for all sorts of things, not just Porsche GT cars..... it can't last forever.

The end might not be in sight, but when it does come, it could be very sudden, and normality is bound to return at some point. And we'll all laugh about the madness. A 911'R's will look expensive, sitting in the classifieds at £100k

[MDL111]

Digga said:

supermono said:

I guess they like to say they don't want speculators but in reality want to reward people buying and selling cars quickly. The two options are incompatible in my view, and they should just go ahead and admit that if you want to make money off rare Porsches you can do do as a rewards for being a frequent buyer.

I think that's closer to the truth; they want to use the GT cars as crude leverage to get overall sales volumes up.

but that is sensible - why would I as OPC care if you are an enthusiast and have kept your 911 for a gazillion years - I don't make much money of servicing your car. I do make money off of the guy, who leases a new Panamera every year through Porsche Financial Services (or a Panamera every 3 years and a Macan for the wife every 3 years etc)- so as long as GT cars are "free money", I will give them to him to ensure he keeps spending. People like that are not speculators, they are good customers who spend a lot of money and will in all likelihood sell their GT3 through me if they don't want to keep it.

Speculators are the guys who try to get only GT cars and sell them again after having done no / a few miles. Look at the GT4 market thread, how many of the "enthusiasts" sold their cars again with less than 5k miles on the clock for a profit....

And if the enthusiasts really want a car, then just spend the mark-up. Plenty of freely configurable 2017 deliveries for sale at mark-up on mobile.de (and I am sure you can get some in the UK as RHD too at premiums). If one can afford the car at 150k, one can probably also afford it at 180k - just not going to get it with a baked in profit / no depreciation for the forseeable future - if an enthusiast is not willing to lose money on the car to be able to spec/drive it and be first owner, then I would question the "enthusiast" description - more like an enthusiast as long as it is more or less a free hobby - which is ok, but not the same.

[neilf]

This is how you do it.

One of the instructors at PEC told me this story last year.

They'd had a bunch of people on "you've just bought a Macan" driving experience's who'd been gifted the day out by their boss.

He'd strolled into an OPC to order a new GT3RS (never owned a Porsche before). Wasn't pleased when OPC tells him he can't have one as he needs to have bought at least 13 new cars from them to be considered. Guy promptly orders 14 cars on the spot. 13 Macan's... and a GT3RS.

[isaldiri]

MDL111 said:

but that is sensible - why would I as OPC care if you are an enthusiast and have kept your 911 for a gazillion years - I don't make much money of servicing your car. I do make money off of the guy, who leases a new Panamera every year through Porsche Financial Services (or a Panamera every 3 years and a Macan for the wife every 3 years etc)- so as long as GT cars are "free money", I will give them to him to ensure he keeps spending. People like that are not speculators, they are good customers who spend a lot of money and will in all likelihood sell their GT3 through me if they don't want to keep it.

Speculators are the guys who try to get only GT cars and sell them again after having done no / a few miles. Look at the GT4 market thread, how many of the "enthusiasts" sold their cars again with less than 5k miles on the clock for a profit....

Agreed, enthusiasts don't necessarily make money for the OPCs. As a business it's fair enough they reward those who do the best for them. Can't argue with that tbh. If that means I'd never qualify for a new GT car, fair enough, I can live with that as I'm not going to beg and scrape to spend £120+k either.

have to add though while i sold a gt4 with almost 4k miles for just enough to cover the ppf, it was sold as I simply didn't think the car was good enough to keep or justify the hype rather than due to being a speculator i have to admit!

[Cheib]

isaldiri said:

MDL111 said:

but that is sensible - why would I as OPC care if you are an enthusiast and have kept your 911 for a gazillion years - I don't make much money of servicing your car. I do make money off of the guy, who leases a new Panamera every year through Porsche Financial Services (or a Panamera every 3 years and a Macan for the wife every 3 years etc)- so as long as GT cars are "free money", I will give them to him to ensure he keeps spending. People like that are not speculators, they are good customers who spend a lot of money and will in all likelihood sell their GT3 through me if they don't want to keep it.

Speculators are the guys who try to get only GT cars and sell them again after having done no / a few miles. Look at the GT4 market thread, how many of the "enthusiasts" sold their cars again with less than 5k miles on the clock for a profit....

Agreed, enthusiasts don't necessarily make money for the OPCs. As a business it's fair enough they reward those who do the best for them. Can't argue with that tbh. If that means I'd never qualify for a new GT car, fair enough, I can live with that as I'm not going to beg and scrape to spend £120+k either.

have to add though while i sold a gt4 with almost 4k miles for just enough to cover the ppf, it was sold as I simply didn't think the car was good enough to keep or justify the hype rather than due to being a speculator i have to admit!

Where the system falls down is when the enthusiast owner doesn't get a crack and the classifieds are full of flipped cars six months after deliveries start.

It's fine to prioritise "profitable" customers with an allocation but OPC's should do everything they can to minimise flipping and that's where the system falls over. Nothing worse than sitting there as someone that wants to drive the car having had no chance at an allocation and seeing cars up for £40k over list.

[RDMcG]

Koln-RS said:

Surely this is just an exceptional phase we're going through - buoyant economy, low interest rates, mental demand for all sorts of things, not just Porsche GT cars..... it can't last forever.

The end might not be in sight, but when it does come, it could be very sudden, and normality is bound to return at some point. And we'll all laugh about the madness. A 911'R's will look expensive, sitting in the classifieds at £100k

i do think there will be a correction and quite soon...this year. There are all sorts signs of a credit contraction globally which tends to precede a recession. The whole Trump rise has faded as reality sets in.........

[Taffy66]

RDMcG said:

i do think there will be a correction and quite soon...this year. There are all sorts signs of a credit contraction globally which tends to precede a recession. The whole Trump rise has faded as reality sets in.........

I'm afraid i totally agree with you..! Batten down the hatches and for those of you who have a confirmed GT3.2 coming you need to cancel your order first thing tomorrow morning...;)

[LordOfTheManor]

In Wales you have to let the salesman sleep with your wife to get a chance of a car!

[SRT Hellcat]

neilf said:

This is how you do it.

One of the instructors at PEC told me this story last year.

They'd had a bunch of people on "you've just bought a Macan" driving experience's who'd been gifted the day out by their boss.

He'd strolled into an OPC to order a new GT3RS (never owned a Porsche before). Wasn't pleased when OPC tells him he can't have one as he needs to have bought at least 13 new cars from them to be considered. Guy promptly orders 14 cars on the spot. 13 Macan's... and a GT3RS.

That is a great story