The 997 Appreciation Thread
Discussion
maz8062 said:
For the life of me I don’t understand why folk spend all that money (£15k plus) for a Hartech engine bore increase. It’s like throwing money down the drain.
No matter what is done to an ageing 996 or 997, it can’t be more expensive than the model up, in this case a .2 S. Also, outside of forums and the internet very few know what a Hartech rebuild is never mind a bore increase, so they just go by it’s age, mileage and value against others.
I would, on the basis that mine’s a keeper!No matter what is done to an ageing 996 or 997, it can’t be more expensive than the model up, in this case a .2 S. Also, outside of forums and the internet very few know what a Hartech rebuild is never mind a bore increase, so they just go by it’s age, mileage and value against others.
“Only” a 3.6 manual, but with every scrap of paper back to original order, one previous owner, and maintained on a rolling three year plan, it could potentially cost more to bring even a .2 up to standard than fixing just my .1’s engine.
Octoposse said:
maz8062 said:
For the life of me I don’t understand why folk spend all that money (£15k plus) for a Hartech engine bore increase. It’s like throwing money down the drain.
No matter what is done to an ageing 996 or 997, it can’t be more expensive than the model up, in this case a .2 S. Also, outside of forums and the internet very few know what a Hartech rebuild is never mind a bore increase, so they just go by it’s age, mileage and value against others.
I would, on the basis that mine’s a keeper!No matter what is done to an ageing 996 or 997, it can’t be more expensive than the model up, in this case a .2 S. Also, outside of forums and the internet very few know what a Hartech rebuild is never mind a bore increase, so they just go by it’s age, mileage and value against others.
“Only” a 3.6 manual, but with every scrap of paper back to original order, one previous owner, and maintained on a rolling three year plan, it could potentially cost more to bring even a .2 up to standard than fixing just my .1’s engine.
Example, my .1 3.6 is coming up for renewal at £500 pa. With an engine mod the car jumps up to £4k pa. Yes one might be able to get it cheaper with extensive searching around but the mod immediately rules out a whole swathe of potential buyers.
The premium for the mod plus the cost of maintenance, add in the unknown reliability of this kind of fettling and it is easy to understand why this type of car will be for sale for a long time.
maz8062 said:
GTRene said:
ATM said:
thats cheap, such engine 4.1 alone cost a little fortune.
No matter what is done to an ageing 996 or 997, it can’t be more expensive than the model up, in this case a .2 S. Also, outside of forums and the internet very few know what a Hartech rebuild is never mind a bore increase, so they just go by it’s age, mileage and value against others.
I can see the temptation and the man maths but I’m yet to see one advertised or sold at any where near the cost of the rebuild. Folk should fix these cars in the cheapest way possible.
maz8062 said:
For the life of me I don’t understand why folk spend all that money (£15k plus) for a Hartech engine bore increase. It’s like throwing money down the drain.
No matter what is done to an ageing 996 or 997, it can’t be more expensive than the model up, in this case a .2 S. Also, outside of forums and the internet very few know what a Hartech rebuild is never mind a bore increase, so they just go by it’s age, mileage and value against others.
I can see the temptation and the man maths but I’m yet to see one advertised or sold at any where near the cost of the rebuild. Folk should fix these cars in the cheapest way possible.
Have you considered it might be out of pure enthusiasm? Maybe someone actually wants to have 4.1 and is willing to pay for it, without second guessing values of other cars etc. No matter what is done to an ageing 996 or 997, it can’t be more expensive than the model up, in this case a .2 S. Also, outside of forums and the internet very few know what a Hartech rebuild is never mind a bore increase, so they just go by it’s age, mileage and value against others.
I can see the temptation and the man maths but I’m yet to see one advertised or sold at any where near the cost of the rebuild. Folk should fix these cars in the cheapest way possible.
PRO 5T said:
maz8062 said:
I hear you but the car will become a Frankenstein for its remaining life and selling it on will be very difficult if not nigh on impossible.
Not entirely sure, I just bought a 3.9 Manthey converted GT3 and I was more interested in that than a standard one.
maz8062 said:
I hear you but the car will become a Frankenstein for its remaining life and selling it on will be very difficult if not nigh on impossible.
An engine displacement increase during an engine overhaul doesn't make a car a "Frankenstein". A Frankenstein would be for instance an impact bumper car with the engine of a 993. In my book, an overhauled engine with an increased displacement by a reputable company is more desirable than a standard car and also more desirable than a standard overhaul.
Filibuster said:
maz8062 said:
I hear you but the car will become a Frankenstein for its remaining life and selling it on will be very difficult if not nigh on impossible.
An engine displacement increase during an engine overhaul doesn't make a car a "Frankenstein". A Frankenstein would be for instance an impact bumper car with the engine of a 993. In my book, an overhauled engine with an increased displacement by a reputable company is more desirable than a standard car and also more desirable than a standard overhaul.
Oh yes it does.
An increase in displacement means new pistons from the off, possibly head mods to maintain the compression ratio, then a bit of fiddling with the ECU map to optimise it all.
A bit more than just a big drill and bigger pistons, Frankenstein is the right description.
maz8062 said:
Example, my .1 3.6 is coming up for renewal at £500 pa. With an engine mod the car jumps up to £4k pa.
I'm not suggesting we should lie to our insurance companies but how would they figure out this has been done. They would need to strip it down and measure stuff. Very very unlikely.ATM said:
maz8062 said:
Example, my .1 3.6 is coming up for renewal at £500 pa. With an engine mod the car jumps up to £4k pa.
I'm not suggesting we should lie to our insurance companies but how would they figure out this has been done. They would need to strip it down and measure stuff. Very very unlikely.This will be a controversial statement but I see this kind of work, outside of an official Porsche shop ( or collaboration with the likes of Manthey) as on a level with a Honda K swap or an LS swap, Audi etc. In the end, the jump in HP is circa 50 hp and increased torque, performance that can’t be exploited on public roads nor will it have been tested to the same rigorous standards as OEM for track work. But the internet says it’s the best thing since sliced bread - it could be who knows - good luck to them.
maz8062 said:
ATM said:
maz8062 said:
Example, my .1 3.6 is coming up for renewal at £500 pa. With an engine mod the car jumps up to £4k pa.
I'm not suggesting we should lie to our insurance companies but how would they figure out this has been done. They would need to strip it down and measure stuff. Very very unlikely.The only people who need to know are you and maybe the next person who buys it. They will just need to see the receipt from Hartech and feel the extra oomph.
maz8062 said:
This will be a controversial statement but I see this kind of work, outside of an official Porsche shop ( or collaboration with the likes of Manthey) as on a level with a Honda K swap or an LS swap, Audi etc. In the end, the jump in HP is circa 50 hp and increased torque, performance that can’t be exploited on public roads nor will it have been tested to the same rigorous standards as OEM for track work. But the internet says it’s the best thing since sliced bread - it could be who knows - good luck to them.
You do know what a basic engine overhaul is, right? This is in no way comparable to an LS engine swap (now this is what I call a Frankenstein car).
Stating that only Porsche themselves should cary out work on an engine and if an other company fits 100mm Capricorn pistons instead of oem 97mm ones makes this car a Frankenstein is a weird statement.
There are a dozen of reputable companies in Europe and US who have a great reputation, including track work, but also actual racing. Same applies to part manufacturers. You might find out that Capricorn for instance has some experience with components that get driven on the track
As for street usable power, well, while I do believe that the 3.6 C2 has just enough power to explore in the real world, I wouldn't mind a 3.9l rebuild at all. Its not like a Hartech 3.9 engine is too powerful to be enjoyed on public roads, quite the opposit I'd say.
^^^^ I'd love to drive that in 2024. In 2008 having driven turbo, C2, C2S, C4S, GT2 I remember having a C2 on loan and on autobahn at 170mph plus thinking this is all the 911 you need but I wanted to buy a "turbo" once in my life with the 930 being one of my fave cars as a youngster. Nice that it does not have a black interior too. I think thats a cheap car for the condition etc. The C2S did have more mid range torque though and felt noticeably faster back in the day but the C2 was no slouch if you thrashed it.
Surely the fact that a car has had a full in house Hartech rebuild would count for a lot more than any concerns because it has been bored out?
If/ when my 2005 C2S needs attention, i would be seriously tempted to go that route (although I know the gains are more with the 3.6).
But either way, 997's are still fabulous and under-rated cars IMHO.
If/ when my 2005 C2S needs attention, i would be seriously tempted to go that route (although I know the gains are more with the 3.6).
But either way, 997's are still fabulous and under-rated cars IMHO.
arkitan said:
Surely the fact that a car has had a full in house Hartech rebuild would count for a lot more than any concerns because it has been bored out?
If/ when my 2005 C2S needs attention, i would be seriously tempted to go that route (although I know the gains are more with the 3.6).
But either way, 997's are still fabulous and under-rated cars IMHO.
Not sure I understand your first sentence. The advertised car, which is lovely btw, doesn't mention an increased capacity.If/ when my 2005 C2S needs attention, i would be seriously tempted to go that route (although I know the gains are more with the 3.6).
But either way, 997's are still fabulous and under-rated cars IMHO.
As you say, going to 3.9l has a much more profound impact if you start with a 3.6l. TBH, I don't know if I would bother starting with a 3,8l, value wise.
Filibuster said:
arkitan said:
Surely the fact that a car has had a full in house Hartech rebuild would count for a lot more than any concerns because it has been bored out?
If/ when my 2005 C2S needs attention, i would be seriously tempted to go that route (although I know the gains are more with the 3.6).
But either way, 997's are still fabulous and under-rated cars IMHO.
Not sure I understand your first sentence. The advertised car, which is lovely btw, doesn't mention an increased capacity.If/ when my 2005 C2S needs attention, i would be seriously tempted to go that route (although I know the gains are more with the 3.6).
But either way, 997's are still fabulous and under-rated cars IMHO.
As you say, going to 3.9l has a much more profound impact if you start with a 3.6l. TBH, I don't know if I would bother starting with a 3,8l, value wise.
Hippea said:
wow full rebuild required at 18k miles, makes you realise how bad these engines are. Plus this is £10k over pricedGregmitchell said:
Hippea said:
wow full rebuild required at 18k miles, makes you realise how bad these engines are. Plus this is £10k over pricedVery easy to cause damage to any engine when it's not treated properly.
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