how come so many 991.2 GT3 for sale
Discussion
RSVP911 said:
Aren’t the numbers for sale ridiculous ; I really hope this is the start of people not making any real money on these cars and as such, not bothering next time , only then will we end up back to something that looks more like “normality” going forward - wishful thinking I know .
The truth is this circus has two main drivers :
Limited supply :
Supply is steadily rising across the GT board and over time will have a negative effect on prices as availability “in general” increases.
Cheap money.
Who knows, for sure, certainly not me, but if we do crash out of Europe, the financial aftershock will have a negative effect on people’s propensity to risk and will then affect behaviour; If the returns reduce or evaporate, the cycle of offloading cars in panic willl set off a negative cycle that will be so quick; it will be brutal.
The fly in the ointment is the new entrant. The nieve consumer confusing advertised prices with prices actually realised; this allows the salesman to flash these numbers around to underpin a “golden journey” that will not materialise in reality once the punter has bought a couple of cars they don’t want and sold them back at a bargain price to get the halo product; as I say it’s a circus; a very effective one underpinned by a brilliant product, but a circus never the less.
So in summary, I’d love GT prices to crash & before I get slagged off for trying to talk the market down ; I already own a 991.2 GT3
Personally I hate crashes. Good for cash rich bargain hunters maybe. Far better to have a mild correction and stable prices going forward. As I say all a little academic for me but still nice to be driving something that doesn't depreciate too much and that everyone wants (enthusiasts that is) The truth is this circus has two main drivers :
Limited supply :
Supply is steadily rising across the GT board and over time will have a negative effect on prices as availability “in general” increases.
Cheap money.
Who knows, for sure, certainly not me, but if we do crash out of Europe, the financial aftershock will have a negative effect on people’s propensity to risk and will then affect behaviour; If the returns reduce or evaporate, the cycle of offloading cars in panic willl set off a negative cycle that will be so quick; it will be brutal.
The fly in the ointment is the new entrant. The nieve consumer confusing advertised prices with prices actually realised; this allows the salesman to flash these numbers around to underpin a “golden journey” that will not materialise in reality once the punter has bought a couple of cars they don’t want and sold them back at a bargain price to get the halo product; as I say it’s a circus; a very effective one underpinned by a brilliant product, but a circus never the less.
So in summary, I’d love GT prices to crash & before I get slagged off for trying to talk the market down ; I already own a 991.2 GT3
Edited by RSVP911 on Sunday 12th August 08:46
m88ony said:
What amazes me is that nobody realises that they are selling at OPC at £30k over list. The seller back to OPC isn’t getting £30k over list!
What amazes me is buyers thinking they can buy at the OPC trade price.OPC cars are well over £30k overs, more like 40k for the cheapest ones and far higher on the 2018 sub 500 mile cars.
But sellers did not care about the price as most now own RS at £100k overs.
Whole market would have to drop 30% for all this wishful thinking to happen.
Cannot see it and if it drops another 10% the cream of the stock will sell.
Porsche911R said:
m88ony said:
What amazes me is that nobody realises that they are selling at OPC at £30k over list. The seller back to OPC isn’t getting £30k over list!
What amazes me is buyers thinking they can buy at the OPC trade price.OPC cars are well over £30k overs, more like 40k for the cheapest ones and far higher on the 2018 sub 500 mile cars.
But sellers did not care about the price as most now own RS at £100k overs.
Whole market would have to drop 30% for all this wishful thinking to happen.
Cannot see it and if it drops another 10% the cream of the stock will sell.
Yes, Porsche are increasing the supply of new GT cars seemingly with each 'run' but such is the performance and reputation that demand is increasing as well. If demand from 'speculators' were to subside, I would imagine still huge demand from those who want to drive one. Until Porsche launch a GT car without 'limiting' production then overs looks likely to continue.
It’s not a gt3 problem,the whole market seems to be over supplied .
Just on ph there are close to 4000 cars selling above 100k, the market is quite saturated not just with gen 2 gt3s .
From the mailing lists I get ,very little is selling .A lot of vehicles have been on sale since the end of 2017 .
Just on ph there are close to 4000 cars selling above 100k, the market is quite saturated not just with gen 2 gt3s .
From the mailing lists I get ,very little is selling .A lot of vehicles have been on sale since the end of 2017 .
Tony 1234 said:
Low finance rates are to blame for the large overs, if interest rates where at 1985 levels (15.5%) there would be a lot less demand for GT cars, thus making it easier for poor pensioners like myself to purchase the cars
People pay £30k interest on a gt3as is, it’s not cheap money. Pcp are very expensive ways to buy cars. I don’t call that cheap finance.
If rates were 15% pensioners would be the richest people in the UK. So you cannot win it just moves who has the money.
browngt3 said:
RSVP911 said:
Aren’t the numbers for sale ridiculous ; I really hope this is the start of people not making any real money on these cars and as such, not bothering next time , only then will we end up back to something that looks more like “normality” going forward - wishful thinking I know .
The truth is this circus has two main drivers :
Limited supply :
Supply is steadily rising across the GT board and over time will have a negative effect on prices as availability “in general” increases.
Cheap money.
Who knows, for sure, certainly not me, but if we do crash out of Europe, the financial aftershock will have a negative effect on people’s propensity to risk and will then affect behaviour; If the returns reduce or evaporate, the cycle of offloading cars in panic willl set off a negative cycle that will be so quick; it will be brutal.
The fly in the ointment is the new entrant. The nieve consumer confusing advertised prices with prices actually realised; this allows the salesman to flash these numbers around to underpin a “golden journey” that will not materialise in reality once the punter has bought a couple of cars they don’t want and sold them back at a bargain price to get the halo product; as I say it’s a circus; a very effective one underpinned by a brilliant product, but a circus never the less.
So in summary, I’d love GT prices to crash & before I get slagged off for trying to talk the market down ; I already own a 991.2 GT3
Personally I hate crashes. Good for cash rich bargain hunters maybe. Far better to have a mild correction and stable prices going forward. As I say all a little academic for me but still nice to be driving something that doesn't depreciate too much and that everyone wants (enthusiasts that is) The truth is this circus has two main drivers :
Limited supply :
Supply is steadily rising across the GT board and over time will have a negative effect on prices as availability “in general” increases.
Cheap money.
Who knows, for sure, certainly not me, but if we do crash out of Europe, the financial aftershock will have a negative effect on people’s propensity to risk and will then affect behaviour; If the returns reduce or evaporate, the cycle of offloading cars in panic willl set off a negative cycle that will be so quick; it will be brutal.
The fly in the ointment is the new entrant. The nieve consumer confusing advertised prices with prices actually realised; this allows the salesman to flash these numbers around to underpin a “golden journey” that will not materialise in reality once the punter has bought a couple of cars they don’t want and sold them back at a bargain price to get the halo product; as I say it’s a circus; a very effective one underpinned by a brilliant product, but a circus never the less.
So in summary, I’d love GT prices to crash & before I get slagged off for trying to talk the market down ; I already own a 991.2 GT3
Edited by RSVP911 on Sunday 12th August 08:46
Porsche911R said:
Tony 1234 said:
Low finance rates are to blame for the large overs, if interest rates where at 1985 levels (15.5%) there would be a lot less demand for GT cars, thus making it easier for poor pensioners like myself to purchase the cars
People pay £30k interest on a gt3as is, it’s not cheap money. Pcp are very expensive ways to buy cars. I don’t call that cheap finance.
If rates were 15% pensioners would be the richest people in the UK. So you cannot win it just moves who has the money.
franki68 said:
It’s not a gt3 problem,the whole market seems to be over supplied .
Just on ph there are close to 4000 cars selling above 100k, the market is quite saturated not just with gen 2 gt3s .
From the mailing lists I get ,very little is selling .A lot of vehicles have been on sale since the end of 2017 .
That's exactly what makes a lot of people cautious. Just on ph there are close to 4000 cars selling above 100k, the market is quite saturated not just with gen 2 gt3s .
From the mailing lists I get ,very little is selling .A lot of vehicles have been on sale since the end of 2017 .
We've had a good run, but there has definitely been a burgeoning over supply across the whole market, and with more new product to come. The good summer may have re-stimulated activity, but it wouldn't take much to 'spook' the market.
theplumber said:
I feel very fortunate for getting a 20k premium when selling mine back to the supplying OPC 6 weeks ago, this was a 3.6k miles, pdk, non clubsport, buckets, ceramics car. I got the feeling they were desperate for stock due to the factory shut down.
I feel fortunate having one to drive ,I’m really not sure there is anything available that I would enjoy more.
the answer to my question posed, is that the Gt3 and GT3rs and GT2rs all have been delivered around the same time which means a lot of cars all at the same time.
I don't want the market to crash - I just prefer we returned to a degree of rationality. Many on here agreed in other topics that "normal depreciation" is acceptable. You go in and order the car you want and expect to lose the VAT pretty much straight away and then hold the car for 1-2 yrs maybe more and take the depreciation. Some new GT cars are owned by the 1st owner for only 3 months.
We are all fortunate we can have these cars and now with PCP this has expanded the market significantly further so even more can have them now. The more people in a market = more volatility.
coming up later this year/ next year is Aston DBS Superlggera, bmw 8 series, likely another McLaren 57 variant, AMG GT facelift, TVR Griffith, Porsche 992, Cayman GT4 +++ Im sure Im missing a few out which are even bigger price points.
I don't want the market to crash - I just prefer we returned to a degree of rationality. Many on here agreed in other topics that "normal depreciation" is acceptable. You go in and order the car you want and expect to lose the VAT pretty much straight away and then hold the car for 1-2 yrs maybe more and take the depreciation. Some new GT cars are owned by the 1st owner for only 3 months.
We are all fortunate we can have these cars and now with PCP this has expanded the market significantly further so even more can have them now. The more people in a market = more volatility.
coming up later this year/ next year is Aston DBS Superlggera, bmw 8 series, likely another McLaren 57 variant, AMG GT facelift, TVR Griffith, Porsche 992, Cayman GT4 +++ Im sure Im missing a few out which are even bigger price points.
Agree all came at once due Factory closure , but generally make too many GT's now for the real world market ( people who use the them and track them , not bought as "investments ) . Was at Silverstone a week or so ago and it was great to see that as it should be the majority of cars on track were Porsche GT products ..
When the 996 GT3 came out they really struggled to sell them especially the .2 version .
They are aware that those days may return in the UK .
When the 996 GT3 came out they really struggled to sell them especially the .2 version .
They are aware that those days may return in the UK .
hunter 66 said:
Agree all came at once due Factory closure , but generally make too many GT's now for the real world market ( people who use the them and track them , not bought as "investments ) . Was at Silverstone a week or so ago and it was great to see that as it should be the majority of cars on track were Porsche GT products ..
When the 996 GT3 came out they really struggled to sell them especially the .2 version .
They are aware that those days may return in the UK .
Yep goto the ring or Spa or even your local track and it's full of Porsche GT cars, great to see.When the 996 GT3 came out they really struggled to sell them especially the .2 version .
They are aware that those days may return in the UK .
At least for 50% owners they get used. PCGB everts have 60 or 70 GT cars turn up.
hunter 66 said:
Time for some adjustment to camber needed on the .2 RS , after 2 days on track , found slow/mid speed corner understeer a drag . Also Dunlops overheat in 2-3 laps , the rears after 3-4 laps you cannot touch they are so hot , even when set to 30 psi hot .
was told not so easy to get the best from the RS due to tyre rub, where as you can dial in a gt3 quite well with the thinner tyres, more room to play with for an extreme set up.not sure what to set mine too though might go -2/-1.8 and see what happens, but my cars not a track rat, just think the factory set ups always lacking. Lucky I got cup 2's on. no point having camber and not using it, you want the min you can get away with and my cars a 98% road car.
you would think 265 on the RS would make understeer vanish. but it seems all the new GT models have the same oem geo even the GT2 RS.
-1.5 square and a lot of front toe but I guess the GT3 has no adjustable thrust arm bushings oem so one might be stuck at -2 before you need to sort out the caster or tyre rubbing esp with 265 up front.
what are you thinking geo wise ?
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 13th August 14:09
franki68 said:
I feel fortunate having one to drive ,I’m really not sure there is anything available that I would enjoy more.
I never intended to flip the car. Although I rated the GT3 very highly I couldn't quite gel with it as a road car and I don't get a chance to get to tracks that often hence why I sold it. In hindsight I should have probably gone for a touring pack with comfort seats. The GT3 engine is simply epic but apart from that I actually found the 570 spider more fun and usable for the road, shame the 570 reliability and residuals are not in the same league as the GT3!!
Porsche911R said:
was told not so easy to get the best from the RS due to tyre rub, where as you can dial in a gt3 quite well with the thinner tyres, more room to play with for an extreme set up.
not sure what to set mine too though might go -2/-1.8 and see what happens, but my cars not a track rat, just think the factory set ups always lacking. Lucky I got cup 2's on. no point having camber and not using it, you want the min you can get away with and my cars a 98% road car.
you would think 265 on the RS would make understeer vanish. but it seems all the new GT models have the same oem geo even the GT2 RS.
-1.5 square and a lot of front toe but I guess the GT3 has no adjustable thrust arm bushings oem so one might be stuck at -2 before you need to sort out the caster or tyre rubbing esp with 265 up front.
what are you thinking geo wise ?
Probably just a small camber change on the front initially maybe soften the roll bar . Was as fast / faster than all others but felt it could do a fair bit more with the set up and Tyres are a hard compound compared to the Cup 2's and Trofeo's the others with me were running . Do not want to do too much due to RWS ?? . Anyway just the road car ..not sure what to set mine too though might go -2/-1.8 and see what happens, but my cars not a track rat, just think the factory set ups always lacking. Lucky I got cup 2's on. no point having camber and not using it, you want the min you can get away with and my cars a 98% road car.
you would think 265 on the RS would make understeer vanish. but it seems all the new GT models have the same oem geo even the GT2 RS.
-1.5 square and a lot of front toe but I guess the GT3 has no adjustable thrust arm bushings oem so one might be stuck at -2 before you need to sort out the caster or tyre rubbing esp with 265 up front.
what are you thinking geo wise ?
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 13th August 14:09
Edited by hunter 66 on Monday 13th August 16:35
Was at my OPC today - they have a Crayon PDK GT3 in the showroom... had 2 owners already in 3000miles (Flipped by the 1st and now on SoR from the 2nd) was reduced to £169k last week - CS with PCCB.
Had an honest chat with my sales guy about the market.. and his view was that people are going to get trapped buying these cars at too much over list... you won't be able to drive it or use it as intended for fear of haemorrhaging value... which we all know.
When you insure - because you're going to want agreed value, and if you want to track it and actually use it - your excess is going to be crazy - because of your agreed value. So ultimately in this flippers market, don't break your balls trying to get into one.. other than owning a new trinket to polish - keeping up with the Jones'
Have to say he did a good job of talking me out of thinking about changing anytime in the near future or until they get to within 10k of list. GT4 will be staying a while unless I get a build allocation for future model.
Had an honest chat with my sales guy about the market.. and his view was that people are going to get trapped buying these cars at too much over list... you won't be able to drive it or use it as intended for fear of haemorrhaging value... which we all know.
When you insure - because you're going to want agreed value, and if you want to track it and actually use it - your excess is going to be crazy - because of your agreed value. So ultimately in this flippers market, don't break your balls trying to get into one.. other than owning a new trinket to polish - keeping up with the Jones'
Have to say he did a good job of talking me out of thinking about changing anytime in the near future or until they get to within 10k of list. GT4 will be staying a while unless I get a build allocation for future model.
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