The 997 - General Discussion Thread
Discussion
Terry Winks said:
Yeah, I know prices have softened a bit, looking at the ads I see now, but I feel pretty good about my purchase now.
£27,500 - 100,000 miles but Hartech build 13,000 miles ago (Purchased December 2022)
Place I got it from had already identified to do the brake lines, so had the gearbox off, I bought a new clutch and that was fitted at cost, even thought the old one was fine, I thought a clutch cost replacement made a whole world of sense, won't get that opportunity again. They'd replaced the front discs as they'd needed doing and I pointed out the front cross over coolant pipes were badly corroded and they got replaced before I picked it up.
What some of the other posters are saying is true, its very easy to focus on bore scoring as that as a big big ticket item to fix, but the usual suspects listed above can run you into thousands to sort too and shouldn't be ignored. But if you go into this like me expecting this car to be a keeper then they're great, I don't think I'd buy a 997 for a short term car now, unless it was absolutely sorted, that might sting you.
The suspension on mine feels like its 100k in now, no knocks or bangs, but just doesn't feel as tight as it could be, maybe a little aloof at the front, but Ohlins R&T was always on the agenda anyway.
I did say I would document up the ICE install we did last summer.
Sounds like a good purchase! Replacement suspension will not be cheap. Been through that with my last car, shocks, springs, coffin arms, tuning forks, drop links, etc. Ouch!!!£27,500 - 100,000 miles but Hartech build 13,000 miles ago (Purchased December 2022)
Place I got it from had already identified to do the brake lines, so had the gearbox off, I bought a new clutch and that was fitted at cost, even thought the old one was fine, I thought a clutch cost replacement made a whole world of sense, won't get that opportunity again. They'd replaced the front discs as they'd needed doing and I pointed out the front cross over coolant pipes were badly corroded and they got replaced before I picked it up.
What some of the other posters are saying is true, its very easy to focus on bore scoring as that as a big big ticket item to fix, but the usual suspects listed above can run you into thousands to sort too and shouldn't be ignored. But if you go into this like me expecting this car to be a keeper then they're great, I don't think I'd buy a 997 for a short term car now, unless it was absolutely sorted, that might sting you.
The suspension on mine feels like its 100k in now, no knocks or bangs, but just doesn't feel as tight as it could be, maybe a little aloof at the front, but Ohlins R&T was always on the agenda anyway.
I did say I would document up the ICE install we did last summer.
Edited by Terry Winks on Saturday 3rd February 10:12
FriedMarsBar said:
Sounds like a good purchase! Replacement suspension will not be cheap. Been through that with my last car, shocks, springs, coffin arms, tuning forks, drop links, etc. Ouch!!!
Yeah, I would like to be as new though, I think that'll really make a difference to this car, there is a chance I could coerce the old boy out of retirement for it and do it ourselves then off to Centre Gravity for the tune up.Terry Winks said:
Yeah, I would like to be as new though, I think that'll really make a difference to this car, there is a chance I could coerce the old boy out of retirement for it and do it ourselves then off to Centre Gravity for the tune up.
Start by quickly trying to undo one bolt, the suspension bolt that goes through the carrier and holds the drops links in. See how you get on with that. If that comes out easy then the rest should be easy too. Rear eccentric bolts can be fused in too, but start with the front strut/drop link bolt first and see how that goes.
That can be wheel carrier off and on a bench with a drill or induction heater to get it out if it has not been changed already, or has and the incorrect (as in not copper grease) added when put back in.
Ed.Neumann said:
Start by quickly trying to undo one bolt, the suspension bolt that goes through the carrier and holds the drops links in.
See how you get on with that. If that comes out easy then the rest should be easy too. Rear eccentric bolts can be fused in too, but start with the front strut/drop link bolt first and see how that goes.
That can be wheel carrier off and on a bench with a drill or induction heater to get it out if it has not been changed already, or has and the incorrect (as in not copper grease) added when put back in.
I've bought some alu grease to use when reassembling my 986. Is that OK or do I need to use copper?See how you get on with that. If that comes out easy then the rest should be easy too. Rear eccentric bolts can be fused in too, but start with the front strut/drop link bolt first and see how that goes.
That can be wheel carrier off and on a bench with a drill or induction heater to get it out if it has not been changed already, or has and the incorrect (as in not copper grease) added when put back in.
ATM said:
I've bought some alu grease to use when reassembling my 986. Is that OK or do I need to use copper?
In my earlier post about drilling out exhaust studs, the guy who supplied the jig said don't use copper grease or aluslip when it's steel (stainless or mild) into aluminium as it's introducing another metal. He thought that ceramic grease was the best but I reckon copper grease is a lot better than nothing as it will help keep the moisture out.I am not a metalurgist :-)
FriedMarsBar said:
In my earlier post about drilling out exhaust studs, the guy who supplied the jig said don't use copper grease or aluslip when it's steel (stainless or mild) into aluminium as it's introducing another metal. He thought that ceramic grease was the best but I reckon copper grease is a lot better than nothing as it will help keep the moisture out.
I am not a metalurgist :-)
Edited: seems a lot of confusion out there about this. Here is what Cytech training manual fro mechanics says (which looks wrong...).I am not a metalurgist :-)
" Copper grease should be applied when mounting components to a dissimilar material, i.e. aluminium and/ or titanium framesets with steel or alloy components. This will help prevent both galvanic corrosion and galling (see below)."
Edited by Discombobulate on Thursday 15th February 21:25
FriedMarsBar said:
ATM said:
I've bought some alu grease to use when reassembling my 986. Is that OK or do I need to use copper?
In my earlier post about drilling out exhaust studs, the guy who supplied the jig said don't use copper grease or aluslip when it's steel (stainless or mild) into aluminium as it's introducing another metal. He thought that ceramic grease was the best but I reckon copper grease is a lot better than nothing as it will help keep the moisture out.I am not a metalurgist :-)
That's all I know.
Back to your point. If steel bolts are going into aluminium then alu grease isn't introducing another metal.
ATM said:
As I understand it copper grease contains fine copper and alu contains fine aluminium embedded in the grease.
That's all I know.
Back to your point. If steel bolts are going into aluminium then alu grease isn't introducing another metal.
Whoops of course you're correct, aluslip isn't introducing another metal, it's simply introducing more alu to react with the steel of the bolts. Maybe my tech was correct then that ceramic grease is the best? That's all I know.
Back to your point. If steel bolts are going into aluminium then alu grease isn't introducing another metal.
ATM said:
I've bought some alu grease to use when reassembling my 986. Is that OK or do I need to use copper?
That is right. Copper grease can fuse the two together.
I do often wonder if something like red rubber grease would be best, something to keep the moisture out without the change of metals in the paste reacting?
I don't know, just told never to use copper grease on these.
It's a tricky one with bore score, seems to be something that may happen, and more likely with miles but some cars have mega miles and are fine.
That said, unless you are doing mega miles per year you could get 10k miles before needing a rebuild, which could be 3 to 4 years of enjoyment with the odd engine oil top up.
So, pragmatically, if you got a car without bore score, and the day after it started, it could be years before you'd even notice from the increased oil consumption. Obviously, YMMV literally.
Steel vs Nikasil liners seems to be a matter of opinion, but I think the Nikasil are generally regarded as forever solution.
As a counter point, when do air cooled engines need to be rebuilt? Or how many cars use loads of oil (especially VW engines it seems) and it's just normal!?
That said, unless you are doing mega miles per year you could get 10k miles before needing a rebuild, which could be 3 to 4 years of enjoyment with the odd engine oil top up.
So, pragmatically, if you got a car without bore score, and the day after it started, it could be years before you'd even notice from the increased oil consumption. Obviously, YMMV literally.
Steel vs Nikasil liners seems to be a matter of opinion, but I think the Nikasil are generally regarded as forever solution.
As a counter point, when do air cooled engines need to be rebuilt? Or how many cars use loads of oil (especially VW engines it seems) and it's just normal!?
105.4 said:
Is it a given that this is an issue that is likely to affect every 997.1?
A lot of 997 cars had engines replaced under warranty free of charge. Some cars kept their warranty for 10 years so some cars getting replacement engines under warranty could have done the majority of their mileage on an engine which has been replaced after many years. Some could have been replaced twice. Porsche engine replacement under warranty will not be in the service history and even if it is a lot of service history is now lost for many cars as dealers have started throwing it away for data protection rules. Hartech themselves said in their blurb somewhere that the majority of engines they work on have been worked on already by someone else. So someone other than Porsche who just replace the whole thing or whole short block If Hartech are running a business employing several people just doing this all day every day you can guess they must be seeing how many engines per day?105.4 said:
When it comes to engine rebuilds / bore scoring, what’s the consensus of replacement nikosil liners vs steel liners?
Hartech wrote an article somewhere detailing their testing of engines repaired with different liners. I can't remember where I saw it. I think / remember / can't be sure / regurgitating all of this from volatile memory / etc / that it said something about Steel was perhaps better for racing type applications where you knew the temperature and rev range the engine would be experiencing, so always hot and always higher revs. Something about steel expanding under temperature and this being manageable if it was always under high load once nice and hot. A road car use engine has to perform under various different heat situations so cold or just warming up. It may never get really hot that often. And then when it does get super hot you may just stop and leave the engine idling - stopped at traffic lights or a junction. Imagine a red hot engine idling at 700 revs with less oil moving around and less coolant and no air passing through the engine bay. Then immediately full throttle again. A road car will experience high or partial load, so full throttle or part throttle, sometimes at lower revs and in higher gears. A race car engine is mostly full throttle almost all the time and only ever at proper operating temperature and never stops half way through a race to sit and idle before then being asked to go full throttle again. It is the large range of engine temp, load and revs which makes road car applications way more complicated than racing applications. If the engine is warming up then some parts can be hotter than others and therefore expanded more than others. This then lead on to a discussion about his closed deck design which is something else to consider when discussing different replacement liners. He said his liners were his own design but I've since read that other people use the same or similar liners - not sure if anyone else does the closed deck machining like Hartech.In summary I read it and thought wow its way more complicated than I'd first thought. The guy - Barry - seemed to know what he was talking about and his conclusions seemed to make sense. Now this could all be obvious to someone else who knew all this already but it was an education for me reading it and it was a good sales pitch.
The earlier 996 3.4 is said to be least likely to score and I believe its due in part to the piston coating used. So its maybe not just about the liner material used but also the piston coating or material too.
105.4 said:
Is every Hartech rebuild done using Nikosil liners?
I believe once they decided on their design and material etc they commissioned a company to make them and have only ever used these. Hartech don't make these. They buy them from elsewhere right.Some Hartech rebuilds are not full so they can just replace 3 liners or one bank. A full rebuild will be all 6 and new replacement pistons which are not original Porsche.
Not clear in my mind if a partial rebuild will reuse the original pistons. Will these be scored too?
ATM said:
I believe once they decided on their design and material etc they commissioned a company to make them and have only ever used these. Hartech don't make these. They buy them from elsewhere right.
Some Hartech rebuilds are not full so they can just replace 3 liners or one bank. A full rebuild will be all 6 and new replacement pistons which are not original Porsche.
Not clear in my mind if a partial rebuild will reuse the original pistons. Will these be scored too?
That’s bloody brilliant. Thank you for that detailed insight Some Hartech rebuilds are not full so they can just replace 3 liners or one bank. A full rebuild will be all 6 and new replacement pistons which are not original Porsche.
Not clear in my mind if a partial rebuild will reuse the original pistons. Will these be scored too?
ATM said:
The earlier 996 3.4 is said to be least likely to score and I believe its due in part to the piston coating used. So its maybe not just about the liner material used but also the piston coating or material too.
I would imagine the smaller cylinder also means less chances of hot spots due to the thicker walls surrounding them?Ed.Neumann said:
ATM said:
The earlier 996 3.4 is said to be least likely to score and I believe its due in part to the piston coating used. So its maybe not just about the liner material used but also the piston coating or material too.
I would imagine the smaller cylinder also means less chances of hot spots due to the thicker walls surrounding them?The later 3.4 996 which dropped the special piston coating is also a little bit more bore scorey than the one with - this was dropped due to cost cutting
But yes the smaller the engine the less bore scoring. The 2.5 is probably the best bet but it may have the super piston coating - not sure. The tip is also more likely ro score as it allows pulling off in 2nd which means engine labouring at very low revs and not good if its hot hot hot.
RATATTAK said:
Help please regarding the best option for a replacement entertainment centre for a 997.2.
For the PCM 3 you can drop in a board inside which gives you wireless android auto and car play. May be a better option than the aliexpress android units?Something like https://integratedautomotive.co.uk/product/porsche...
Not used this myself and seems to be other options where you open the PCM and plug a new board in, but it's a good OEM looking option!
last week I came across a green 997.2 GT3 RS Dutch plates ad (the ad was scam and used pictures from others I guess, but the 4.1 story true) were the story was 540hp from a 4.1 Shark Werks engine, sounded great so I looked up their website, many tuning things for the 997 and others, but here the 4.1 997.2 GT3 engine.
looks like a great engine using the 3.8
Shark Werks
4.1 Liter Engine Upgrade for 997 / 997.2 GT3 / RS
Video's and info in this link, anyone here have such?
https://www.sharkwerks.com/engine/p3832-sharkwerks...
looks like a great engine using the 3.8
Shark Werks
4.1 Liter Engine Upgrade for 997 / 997.2 GT3 / RS
Video's and info in this link, anyone here have such?
https://www.sharkwerks.com/engine/p3832-sharkwerks...
RemarkLima said:
For the PCM 3 you can drop in a board inside which gives you wireless android auto and car play. May be a better option than the aliexpress android units?
Something like https://integratedautomotive.co.uk/product/porsche...
Not used this myself and seems to be other options where you open the PCM and plug a new board in, but it's a good OEM looking option!
ThankyouSomething like https://integratedautomotive.co.uk/product/porsche...
Not used this myself and seems to be other options where you open the PCM and plug a new board in, but it's a good OEM looking option!
ATM said:
The 3.4 987 is also very bore scorey
The later 3.4 996 which dropped the special piston coating is also a little bit more bore scorey than the one with - this was dropped due to cost cutting
But yes the smaller the engine the less bore scoring. The 2.5 is probably the best bet but it may have the super piston coating - not sure. The tip is also more likely ro score as it allows pulling off in 2nd which means engine labouring at very low revs and not good if its hot hot hot.
I’ve just been watching a video explaining a bit more about the likely causes of bore scoring.The later 3.4 996 which dropped the special piston coating is also a little bit more bore scorey than the one with - this was dropped due to cost cutting
But yes the smaller the engine the less bore scoring. The 2.5 is probably the best bet but it may have the super piston coating - not sure. The tip is also more likely ro score as it allows pulling off in 2nd which means engine labouring at very low revs and not good if its hot hot hot.
I’m not sure if many of you chaps have seen this, or are aware of the points raised in this video, but I’ll post a link anyway.
https://youtu.be/G7idZe6qAtg?si=xL7AVrpO34vh922J
Hopefully by the end of this year, (all being well), they’ll be a 997.1 C2S on my driveway, hence my interest.
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