Carbon Brakes - walk away or worth it?
Discussion
Isysman said:
nickfrog said:
No you"re nonsense ;-).
If one cooks Porsche metal brakes in a handful of laps, maybe one brakes too much and should lean on the lat grip instead...
I take it you still haven't taken the car anywhere near a track ? Nor any car for that matter.
It's well known that ceramics are used because they are resistant to fade even at extremely high temperatures. I don't need to use mine on a track to say it here. If one cooks Porsche metal brakes in a handful of laps, maybe one brakes too much and should lean on the lat grip instead...
I take it you still haven't taken the car anywhere near a track ? Nor any car for that matter.
Edited by nickfrog on Saturday 21st June 22:40
If I wanted to track my car I'd have bought a GT3 not a Turbo. Do you actually own a Porsche or are you just a groupie hanging out in Porsche forums?
Yeah I have ran 2 Porsches for a total of 7 years and around 30+ track days with them (including organising several boxa.net track days) but I think it's not what you drive it's what you do with it, but I appreciate the badge is very important to you. I'll probably have another one at some point, a 968CS does appeal. No one said ceramics weren't resistant to fade btw (not that it's of any benefit on the road compared to conventional discs). All that many regular track pedalers say is that there is no stopping distance benefit because the first constraint is front tyre grip (geddit?) and that Porsche metal discs with decent pads are very hard to cook.
As you have no track experience you've probably never driven at more than 5/10ths of your 997. Which is fine. But if you had driven a GT3 on OE metal discs or on Alcons at 10/10ths (or were even capable of doing that) you may have a properly informed view, particularly on fade or modulation.
Edited by nickfrog on Sunday 22 June 09:02
BIRMA said:
This is an interesting thread, it has made me re-visit all of the articles on Carbon Brakes that I read prior to buying a car with them. As an enthusiastic driver it would appear I may have overly relied on them, but to date have not come unstuck (excuse the pun) with my very late braking.
Hallelujah! Our brother has seen the light.For everyone else who enjoys blowing a wad of cash on a nice caliper paint job, here are some tips:
1. Listen carefully to everything the OPC salesman tells you. He is a member of MENSA and font of all knowledge. Especially on brakes.
2. Ignore advice from race teams and their drivers and dismiss any telemetry data as the mad rantings of ignorant halfwits.
3. Scientific fact is impotent in the face of the Cult of Carbon Ceramic. Revel joyfully in the knowledge thou art chosen. For OEM part numbers 997.351.409.92 and 997.351.410.92 are the numbers of the Beast. Worship the Yellow Caliper. Wear the Porsche Design Martini Racing Jacket and matching driving shoes with pride.
4. Venerate the sacred texts and commit them to memory. For the Book of evo, the Book of CAR and the Book of AutoCar shall become thy guidance and comfort. Their clerics shall be the high priests of our cult, and shall suffer no temptation or freebie junkets to the Algarve.
5. Ignore long forum threads on the subject. For the unbelievers shall have posted many times before and their silence may be assured through sheer force of numbers.
Harris_I said:
BIRMA said:
This is an interesting thread, it has made me re-visit all of the articles on Carbon Brakes that I read prior to buying a car with them. As an enthusiastic driver it would appear I may have overly relied on them, but to date have not come unstuck (excuse the pun) with my very late braking.
Hallelujah! Our brother has seen the light.For everyone else who enjoys blowing a wad of cash on a nice caliper paint job, here are some tips:
1. Listen carefully to everything the OPC salesman tells you. He is a member of MENSA and font of all knowledge. Especially on brakes.
2. Ignore advice from race teams and their drivers and dismiss any telemetry data as the mad rantings of ignorant halfwits.
3. Scientific fact is impotent in the face of the Cult of Carbon Ceramic. Revel joyfully in the knowledge thou art chosen. For OEM part numbers 997.351.409.92 and 997.351.410.92 are the numbers of the Beast. Worship the Yellow Caliper. Wear the Porsche Design Martini Racing Jacket and matching driving shoes with pride.
4. Venerate the sacred texts and commit them to memory. For the Book of evo, the Book of CAR and the Book of AutoCar shall become thy guidance and comfort. Their clerics shall be the high priests of our cult, and shall suffer no temptation or freebie junkets to the Algarve.
5. Ignore long forum threads on the subject. For the unbelievers shall have posted many times before and their silence may be assured through sheer force of numbers.
Edited by BIRMA on Sunday 22 June 15:00
ORD said:
I would see ceramics (in good condition) as a real plus on a second hand car. Lots of pluses but just not worth the extra outlay on a new car (in my opinion), although if money were pretty much no object, I would definitely have them.
I agree, but just yesterday when a friend was picking up his new Cayman (no PCCB's) I was chatting to someone in the car park who was looking for a Porsche and he was of the opinion he should avoid a secondhand car with them. After explaining my experience with them I am sure he thought differently, but his opinion is quite common amongst people I have spoken to.nickfrog said:
I thought you were looking for a cheap track car to start your track career a while ago ?
Yeah I have ran 2 Porsches for a total of 7 years and around 30+ track days with them (including organising several boxa.net track days) but I think it's not what you drive it's what you do with it, but I appreciate the badge is very important to you. I'll probably have another one at some point, a 968CS does appeal. No one said ceramics weren't resistant to fade btw (not that it's of any benefit on the road compared to conventional discs). All that many regular track pedalers say is that there is no stopping distance benefit because the first constraint is front tyre grip (geddit?) and that Porsche metal discs with decent pads are very hard to cook.
As you have no track experience you've probably never driven at more than 5/10ths of your 997. Which is fine. But if you had driven a GT3 on OE metal discs or on Alcons at 10/10ths (or were even capable of doing that) you may have a properly informed view, particularly on fade or modulation.
Yawn, you're still going on about that, how boring.Yeah I have ran 2 Porsches for a total of 7 years and around 30+ track days with them (including organising several boxa.net track days) but I think it's not what you drive it's what you do with it, but I appreciate the badge is very important to you. I'll probably have another one at some point, a 968CS does appeal. No one said ceramics weren't resistant to fade btw (not that it's of any benefit on the road compared to conventional discs). All that many regular track pedalers say is that there is no stopping distance benefit because the first constraint is front tyre grip (geddit?) and that Porsche metal discs with decent pads are very hard to cook.
As you have no track experience you've probably never driven at more than 5/10ths of your 997. Which is fine. But if you had driven a GT3 on OE metal discs or on Alcons at 10/10ths (or were even capable of doing that) you may have a properly informed view, particularly on fade or modulation.
Edited by nickfrog on Sunday 22 June 09:02
BIRMA said:
I agree, but just yesterday when a friend was picking up his new Cayman (no PCCB's) I was chatting to someone in the car park who was looking for a Porsche and he was of the opinion he should avoid a secondhand car with them. After explaining my experience with them I am sure he thought differently, but his opinion is quite common amongst people I have spoken to.
I think those people avoid because they're are worried about potential cost if they need to repair. Don't think it has anything to do with them from a practical standpoint.Isysman said:
BIRMA said:
I agree, but just yesterday when a friend was picking up his new Cayman (no PCCB's) I was chatting to someone in the car park who was looking for a Porsche and he was of the opinion he should avoid a secondhand car with them. After explaining my experience with them I am sure he thought differently, but his opinion is quite common amongst people I have spoken to.
I think those people avoid because they're are worried about potential cost if they need to repair. Don't think it has anything to do with them from a practical standpoint.From Porsche website. (I've underlined the bits that I have been trying to get across here, namely that they stop better, are used in motorsport and don't fade as easily as steels.)
Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB)
From the start, Porsche has been synonymous with motorsport. Ever since 1948, when we found our identity on the racetrack, we have taken the experience we have gained and applied it to the road. The optional Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB) is a fine example. This brake system has already had to cope with the harshest requirements of motor racing and is fitted in cars that compete in demanding events such as the Porsche Mobil 1 Supercup.
The cross-drilled PCCB ceramic brake discs for the Cayman models have a diameter of 350 mm front and rear for even more formidable braking performance.
The use of six-piston aluminium monobloc fixed brake calipers on the front axle and four-piston units at the rear – all finished in yellow – ensures extremely high brake forces which, crucially, are exceptionally consistent.
PCCB enables shorter braking distances even in the toughest road and race conditions. Excellent fade resistance ensures greater balance when slowing from racetrack speeds.
Another key advantage of PCCB is the extremely low weight of the ceramic brake discs, which are approximately 50% lighter than standard discs of a similar design and size. As well as enhancing performance and fuel economy, this represents a major reduction in unsprung and rotating masses. The consequence of this is better road holding and increased comfort, particularly on uneven roads, as well as greater agility and improved handling.
Please note that circuit racing, track day use and other forms of performance driving can significantly reduce the service life of even the most durable pads and discs. As with conventional high-performance braking systems, we recommend that all brake components be professionally inspected and replaced where necessary after each track event.
http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/cayman/cayman/saf...
Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB)
From the start, Porsche has been synonymous with motorsport. Ever since 1948, when we found our identity on the racetrack, we have taken the experience we have gained and applied it to the road. The optional Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB) is a fine example. This brake system has already had to cope with the harshest requirements of motor racing and is fitted in cars that compete in demanding events such as the Porsche Mobil 1 Supercup.
The cross-drilled PCCB ceramic brake discs for the Cayman models have a diameter of 350 mm front and rear for even more formidable braking performance.
The use of six-piston aluminium monobloc fixed brake calipers on the front axle and four-piston units at the rear – all finished in yellow – ensures extremely high brake forces which, crucially, are exceptionally consistent.
PCCB enables shorter braking distances even in the toughest road and race conditions. Excellent fade resistance ensures greater balance when slowing from racetrack speeds.
Another key advantage of PCCB is the extremely low weight of the ceramic brake discs, which are approximately 50% lighter than standard discs of a similar design and size. As well as enhancing performance and fuel economy, this represents a major reduction in unsprung and rotating masses. The consequence of this is better road holding and increased comfort, particularly on uneven roads, as well as greater agility and improved handling.
Please note that circuit racing, track day use and other forms of performance driving can significantly reduce the service life of even the most durable pads and discs. As with conventional high-performance braking systems, we recommend that all brake components be professionally inspected and replaced where necessary after each track event.
http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/cayman/cayman/saf...
As I said earlier in the thread, the Supercup cars are no quicker than the cup cars that are identical but with steel discs. However the brake running budget is a lot higher the cup for obvious reasons.
The motorsport performance angle is not valid unfortunately.
The motorsport performance angle is not valid unfortunately.
Edited by Steve Rance on Sunday 22 June 20:16
Steve Rance said:
As I said earlier in the thread, the Supercup cars are no quicker than the cup cars that are identical but with steel discs. However the brake running budget is a lot higher the cup for obvious reasons.
The motorsport performance angle is not valid unfortunately.
I posted this to point out the reasons that Porsche say they are better than standard. Also somebody said they weren't used in Motorsport when according to this they are. The motorsport performance angle is not valid unfortunately.
Edited by Steve Rance on Sunday 22 June 20:16
Isysman said:
From Porsche website.
__The use of six-piston aluminium monobloc fixed brake calipers on the front axle and four-piston units at the rear – all finished in yellow – ensures extremely high brake forces which, crucially, are exeptionally consistant
http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/cayman/cayman/saf...
That statement is absolutely true.....and no different to steel apart from the yellow bit. Marketing tosh, which Porsche are pretty good at.__The use of six-piston aluminium monobloc fixed brake calipers on the front axle and four-piston units at the rear – all finished in yellow – ensures extremely high brake forces which, crucially, are exeptionally consistant
http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/cayman/cayman/saf...
Isysman said:
Steve Rance said:
As I said earlier in the thread, the Supercup cars are no quicker than the cup cars that are identical but with steel discs. However the brake running budget is a lot higher the cup for obvious reasons.
The motorsport performance angle is not valid unfortunately.
I posted this to point out the reasons that Porsche say they are better than standard. Also somebody said they weren't used in Motorsport when according to this they are. The motorsport performance angle is not valid unfortunately.
Isysman said:
Yawn, you're still going on about that, how boring.
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