Carbon Brakes - walk away or worth it?
Discussion
mrdemon said:
Moog72 said:
I've never driven a car with carbon brakes and the price frankly put me off spec'ing them on my Boxster as I was impressed by the performance of the standard steel brakes when they were "demonstrated" to / by me at Porsche Silverstone Experience center, but why / how are they that much better under normal road driving conditions? I'm not interested in being able to brake 15m or whatever later or brake dust reduction, I'd genuinely like to understand why folks would choose carbon over steels if you are being asked to pay X thousand for them.
Is it feel? Road use only, no track work
you just said it, braking much much later, less wear, no dust, better handling, lighter weight, 100,000 miles life, 6 pots over 4 potsIs it feel? Road use only, no track work
hugh rears over tiny steel rears.
they are a bargin as an option as you could never fit them after market.
if you drove one then you would know.
Ignore the bumf about performance. It is nonsense. If there was a material difference in performance, dont you think Porsche would be ramming statistics down our throats and hard-selling the carbon brakes?
I bought a Cayman S with them — and I don't regret it — yet, anyway. I can always replace with steel items and get to keep the larger calipers etc.
Unsprung weight is one "advantage" whatever that may mean in real terms.
On the road they feel really good when warm — inspire a large amount of confidence when driving quick.
Regards the whole "the basic is good enough" or "you're not racing" — I wouldn't have bought a Porsche if I didn't want something more interesting. I don't need 320bhp either…
Unsprung weight is one "advantage" whatever that may mean in real terms.
On the road they feel really good when warm — inspire a large amount of confidence when driving quick.
Regards the whole "the basic is good enough" or "you're not racing" — I wouldn't have bought a Porsche if I didn't want something more interesting. I don't need 320bhp either…
jcarruthers said:
I bought a Cayman S with them — and I don't regret it — yet, anyway. I can always replace with steel items and get to keep the larger calipers etc.
Unsprung weight is one "advantage" whatever that may mean in real terms.
On the road they feel really good when warm — inspire a large amount of confidence when driving quick.
Regards the whole "the basic is good enough" or "you're not racing" — I wouldn't have bought a Porsche if I didn't want something more interesting. I don't need 320bhp either…
Not sure that's right. I "need" 300+bhp in that anything less would make the standard Cayman S underpowered (for my tastes). Unsprung weight is one "advantage" whatever that may mean in real terms.
On the road they feel really good when warm — inspire a large amount of confidence when driving quick.
Regards the whole "the basic is good enough" or "you're not racing" — I wouldn't have bought a Porsche if I didn't want something more interesting. I don't need 320bhp either…
I agree with you that unprung weight point is probably a better reason than braking performance, and I had forgotten about that. A few kgs a corner might bring a bit more composure and even (a little) bit more responsiveness. Not sure that is worth the thousands of squids that they cost, but it is a valid point.
ORD said:
This is what annoys me about PCCB. They do not bring a drastic reduction in stopping distance; nor do they cope significantly better with fade. They are largely fashion items that will last a long time (which they bloody should for the cost) and will keep your wheels and lower sides clean. End of story.
Ignore the bumf about performance. It is nonsense. If there was a material difference in performance, dont you think Porsche would be ramming statistics down our throats and hard-selling the carbon brakes?
I can show you vbox stopping distances to back up my claims as normal :-)Ignore the bumf about performance. It is nonsense. If there was a material difference in performance, dont you think Porsche would be ramming statistics down our throats and hard-selling the carbon brakes?
I have two of the same cars and the stopping distance is massive between the two esp at higher speeds.
forget the carbon disks,, the Calipers are massive 6 pots with 350mm size disks, vs 4 pots with 330mm disks.
that's with a Cayman or Boxster, I agree a car which already have 6 pots on the front will not see a big gain.
so much larger pad area and much larger disks to take the heat, and you don't think that increases performance lol
Again fade is much less, prob going from 4 or 5 100 mph stops to 3 x that amount with out fade.
Moog72 said:
Cheers, but braking later makes zero difference on the road,
it does if the guy in front has PCCB and you don't, as you will just pile into the back of them lol.but being serious, I buy sports cars and drive them quite fast, the extra performance is nice to have and makes the car a lot safter.
It also allows me to out brake cars with much more power which is great on track, but I like that performance advantage on the road also for that odd 911 driver who has to be on the brakes 30 yards earlier :-)
Depends if you buy cars to pose in or drive I guess.
I really like my PCCBs, when warmed up they feel great - certainly wouldn't put me off a car. I haven't tracked with them yet but with fast road work they seem very competent.
As already said, slightly more fragile than steels when it comes to changes tyres etc but just get someone who knows what they're doing on them.
mrdemon said:
it does if the guy in front has PCCB and you don't, as you will just pile into the back of them lol.
but being serious, I buy sports cars and drive them quite fast, the extra performance is nice to have and makes the car a lot safter.
It also allows me to out brake cars with much more power which is great on track, but I like that performance advantage on the road also for that odd 911 driver who has to be on the brakes 30 yards earlier :-)
Depends if you buy cars to pose in or drive I guess.
Just make sure you are not behind my 911 when I anchor up as your smaller PCCB setup is weedy in comparison to my full fat 15" front discs. Ok sunshine?! but being serious, I buy sports cars and drive them quite fast, the extra performance is nice to have and makes the car a lot safter.
It also allows me to out brake cars with much more power which is great on track, but I like that performance advantage on the road also for that odd 911 driver who has to be on the brakes 30 yards earlier :-)
Depends if you buy cars to pose in or drive I guess.
mrdemon said:
It also allows me to out brake cars with much more power which is great on track, but I like that performance advantage on the road also for that odd 911 driver who has to be on the brakes 30 yards earlier :-).
it was almost tempting to explain, using physics why that is total sh!ite, but.....
Interesting stats then.....
Today on PH Classifieds, out of 80 x 981 Boxsters there is only the 1 used car with ceramics which is the blue car at BHP mentioned above by the OP.
Out of 64 x 981 Caymans dated 2012 or later, there are only the two with PCCBs, both at OPCs.
I wonder exactly what proportion of new Boxsters and Caymans are actually delivered brand new to customers versus those that are pre-reg'd/demos by OPCs. I have often suspected that although PCCBs are extremely desirable particularly at the 'new' option cost, that OPCs in particular are either failing to make a sales case for them, or are not specifying themselves on their own pre-reg'd/demo cars (I wonder why ever not...?), or current owners who have PCCBs love them so much they hold on to them, but that also depends on what proportion of new private customers or business/fleet 'user choosers' specify them at first purchase.
Which is it?
Today on PH Classifieds, out of 80 x 981 Boxsters there is only the 1 used car with ceramics which is the blue car at BHP mentioned above by the OP.
Out of 64 x 981 Caymans dated 2012 or later, there are only the two with PCCBs, both at OPCs.
I wonder exactly what proportion of new Boxsters and Caymans are actually delivered brand new to customers versus those that are pre-reg'd/demos by OPCs. I have often suspected that although PCCBs are extremely desirable particularly at the 'new' option cost, that OPCs in particular are either failing to make a sales case for them, or are not specifying themselves on their own pre-reg'd/demo cars (I wonder why ever not...?), or current owners who have PCCBs love them so much they hold on to them, but that also depends on what proportion of new private customers or business/fleet 'user choosers' specify them at first purchase.
Which is it?
IMHO the advantages are way outweighed by the cost right now when speccing new - especially as most first time owners are paying for 100k miles life and using a fraction of that. If they cost £2k I might think about it, not £5-6k.
Makes sense on a 2nd hand car as you pay little or nothing extra, provided you have them thoroughly inspected
Makes sense on a 2nd hand car as you pay little or nothing extra, provided you have them thoroughly inspected
Adam B said:
IMHO the advantages are way outweighed by the cost right now when speccing new - especially as most first time owners are paying for 100k miles life and using a fraction of that. If they cost £2k I might think about it, not £5-6k.
Makes sense on a 2nd hand car as you pay little or nothing extra, provided you have them thoroughly inspected
I hope some of the irony of what you just posted isn't lost on you...?Makes sense on a 2nd hand car as you pay little or nothing extra, provided you have them thoroughly inspected
Hellers said:
Interesting stats then.....
Today on PH Classifieds, out of 80 x 981 Boxsters there is only the 1 used car with ceramics which is the blue car at BHP mentioned above by the OP.
Out of 64 x 981 Caymans dated 2012 or later, there are only the two with PCCBs, both at OPCs.
I wonder exactly what proportion of new Boxsters and Caymans are actually delivered brand new to customers versus those that are pre-reg'd/demos by OPCs. I have often suspected that although PCCBs are extremely desirable particularly at the 'new' option cost, that OPCs in particular are either failing to make a sales case for them, or are not specifying themselves on their own pre-reg'd/demo cars (I wonder why ever not...?), or current owners who have PCCBs love them so much they hold on to them, but that also depends on what proportion of new private customers or business/fleet 'user choosers' specify them at first purchase.
Which is it?
My salesman told me that they are simply overkill on a Boxster and just not worth the £5k they cost, simple as that. Having been very impressed with the (steels) braking performance during a test drive at PEC Silverstone, who was I to argue.Today on PH Classifieds, out of 80 x 981 Boxsters there is only the 1 used car with ceramics which is the blue car at BHP mentioned above by the OP.
Out of 64 x 981 Caymans dated 2012 or later, there are only the two with PCCBs, both at OPCs.
I wonder exactly what proportion of new Boxsters and Caymans are actually delivered brand new to customers versus those that are pre-reg'd/demos by OPCs. I have often suspected that although PCCBs are extremely desirable particularly at the 'new' option cost, that OPCs in particular are either failing to make a sales case for them, or are not specifying themselves on their own pre-reg'd/demo cars (I wonder why ever not...?), or current owners who have PCCBs love them so much they hold on to them, but that also depends on what proportion of new private customers or business/fleet 'user choosers' specify them at first purchase.
Which is it?
fioran0 said:
mrdemon said:
It also allows me to out brake cars with much more power which is great on track, but I like that performance advantage on the road also for that odd 911 driver who has to be on the brakes 30 yards earlier :-).
it was almost tempting to explain, using physics why that is total sh!ite, but.....
we have done this before it's dull , if you think you have a normal 911 road car or a Cayman/ Boxster with oem steel brakes/pads with road tyres which can out stop my Porsche with oem PCCB/pads from 120 mph to zero then I'll put £300 down and rent brunters for an hour to do it side by side
Loser also has to pay the Bruntingthopre hours rent.
I cannot be fairer than that. you have to pay me £300 if you loose though it's a 2 way bet.
pm me if you want to take it up, I don't mind being proved wrong and £300 for 20 minutes work is easy money for you.
Loser also has to pay the Bruntingthopre hours rent.
I cannot be fairer than that. you have to pay me £300 if you loose though it's a 2 way bet.
pm me if you want to take it up, I don't mind being proved wrong and £300 for 20 minutes work is easy money for you.
mrdemon said:
we have done this before it's dull , if you think you have a normal 911 road car or a Cayman/ Boxster with oem steel brakes/pads with road tyres which can out stop my Porsche with oem PCCB/pads from 120 mph to zero then I'll put £300 down and rent brunters for an hour to do it side by side
Loser also has to pay the Bruntingthopre hours rent.
I cannot be fairer than that. you have to pay me £300 if you loose though it's a 2 way bet.
pm me if you want to take it up, I don't mind being proved wrong and £300 for 20 minutes work is easy money for you.
WOW, not even a very basic understanding of physics huh? Its not about the brakes.Loser also has to pay the Bruntingthopre hours rent.
I cannot be fairer than that. you have to pay me £300 if you loose though it's a 2 way bet.
pm me if you want to take it up, I don't mind being proved wrong and £300 for 20 minutes work is easy money for you.
Car and Driver, brake test. 2x 997 C2S. 35 runs. 100mph to 0 mph. One car PCCB, one car steel. Average braking distance for each: 305ft.
Can you take a guess what the Commission for Traffic Accident Reconstruction found when they looked into stopping distances. The average G across all the cars they looked at from all manufacturers over the one model year was 1.0G. Max value was 1.15G, min value was 0.85G.
The Porsches they looked at (997.1 C4S, 997.1 Turbo, 987 Cayman, 987 Cayman S) pulled 1.10, 1.12, 1.09, 1.07 respectively with 60mph-0mph distances of 109ft, 107ft, 110ft, 112ft. I wonder why.
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 21st May 16:51
I can only add the followings facts to the debate as to whether or not you choose to specify PCCB's. Here is my personal real world experience to date, some time ago I had an RX7 which I loved to do track days with, it had a good upgraded brake system/fluids etc but on open pit days my enjoyment was always delayed by the fact that my brake fluid would boil and the resulting fade would require me to come in and let things cool down. Since buying my Boxster with the PCCB's I have never had this problem so that's the track day side in my opinion sorted.
As far as road use goes I still say that once you get used to having them on your car you then get in another performance car and think 's
t this cars got no brakes' this might be a slight exaggeration but it is exactly what I think. As to why you should have them on a Boxster well it's a performance car. I am seriously looking at having the Parr conversion done on mine and with about 420 BHP being the result I don't at least have to spend extra money on upgrading the brakes.
As far as road use goes I still say that once you get used to having them on your car you then get in another performance car and think 's
t this cars got no brakes' this might be a slight exaggeration but it is exactly what I think. As to why you should have them on a Boxster well it's a performance car. I am seriously looking at having the Parr conversion done on mine and with about 420 BHP being the result I don't at least have to spend extra money on upgrading the brakes. Edited by BIRMA on Wednesday 21st May 16:47
do you want to bring a Cayman or a Boxster or a normal 911 with a oem brake set up on road tyres and take the bet or not, vs my Boxster with oem PCCB set up. don't care much for physics regarding this test.
simple 120mph to zero winner takes all with the shortest stopping distance.
As I have said, I cannot be more fairer than this offer, if you don't want to take the bet please stop posting such daft pictures.
simple 120mph to zero winner takes all with the shortest stopping distance.
As I have said, I cannot be more fairer than this offer, if you don't want to take the bet please stop posting such daft pictures.
can you explain how your test will extract the ability of the PCCB system to stop the car in a shorter period over steel brakes versus physics working with tyre friction and mass?
the latter is what will actually happen. both types of brake are more powerful than the tyre grip on the road surface. you do understand that at least right?
thats the wonderful thing about science. you don't need to trot off to brunters to watch you hide in a bush.
the latter is what will actually happen. both types of brake are more powerful than the tyre grip on the road surface. you do understand that at least right?
thats the wonderful thing about science. you don't need to trot off to brunters to watch you hide in a bush.
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 21st May 17:00
you cannot lock up a wheel at 120mph, brakes are not that powerfull to do that.
So you are wrong to state "both types of brake are more powerful than the tyre grip on the road surface"
the PCCB Cayman/Boxster has 350mm disks and 6 pots over 330mm disks and 4 pots in a steel set up.
As I have already stated a 4 pot set up cannot lock a wheel at 120mph bigger brakes will stop you in a shorter distance.
now take my bet so I can post up the results for all to see.
being a racer you seem to not really know much, you are telling me you don't brake hard at the end of the straight due to fear of locking up ?
hence why we have to Threshold brake at that certain speed, say 60 mph when the brakes then over come the grip you have.
So you are wrong to state "both types of brake are more powerful than the tyre grip on the road surface"
the PCCB Cayman/Boxster has 350mm disks and 6 pots over 330mm disks and 4 pots in a steel set up.
As I have already stated a 4 pot set up cannot lock a wheel at 120mph bigger brakes will stop you in a shorter distance.
now take my bet so I can post up the results for all to see.
being a racer you seem to not really know much, you are telling me you don't brake hard at the end of the straight due to fear of locking up ?
hence why we have to Threshold brake at that certain speed, say 60 mph when the brakes then over come the grip you have.
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