Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!!

Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!!

Author
Discussion

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
mollytherocker said:
This is a complex and very specific argument. Bringing cameras into the discussion as an analogy makes no sense whatsover.
+1

No car is the right car for an 8mph drive in traffic, but I can think of a lot worse cars to be in. Also, if you live in London, you're often limited by various practical considerations to 1 car.

J12KJR

2,860 posts

242 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
So this started out as a is PDK quicker than a manual thread, does it matter.
It's turned into a which is better thread, again what does it matter.
To those that want to drive a manual you can, to those that want to drive a PDK you can. Neither camp will ever persuade the other that they are wrong so why not just enjoy driving whichever you prefer.

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
ianrb said:
But your SLR analogy falls down. Professional sports photographers tend to leave their cameras in P and concentrate on framing the shot they want; the P mode is so good that they know they cant do any better.
I don't know any pro's who use P esp sports ones, shutter speed on sports is very important, as is ISO if it's a bit dull etc etc

in fact P mode is st :-) I doubt any one who earns a living from taking photo's uses P.

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
J12KJR said:
So this started out as a is PDK quicker than a manual thread, does it matter.
It's turned into a which is better thread, again what does it matter.
To those that want to drive a manual you can, to those that want to drive a PDK you can. Neither camp will ever persuade the other that they are wrong so why not just enjoy driving whichever you prefer.
It doesnt matter to my mother.

If you are bothering to join this site and are a genuine car nut, it matters.

A lot.

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
mollytherocker said:
This is a complex and very specific argument. Bringing cameras into the discussion as an analogy makes no sense whatsover.
hobbies and things you do in your spare time, both PDK and P mode are the same thing imo, if it's your hobby and you enjoy doing either why automate them.


mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Sunday 23rd November 2014
quotequote all
mollytherocker said:
It doesnt matter to my mother.

If you are bothering to join this site and are a genuine car nut, it matters.

A lot.
I don't think there are many genuine car nuts who enjoy diving for fun :-( maybe more on the Mx5 forum

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
mollytherocker said:
ORD said:
Easy. I just spent 1 hour driving about 8 miles in London. That would have been quite unpleasant in any manual car. As it was, it was tolerable.
May I suggest that a Porsche is not even the right car for that type of journey?
I bought an excellent road car to.....

wait for it...

wait for it...

drive on the road.

I don't care how quickly cars go round the Nurburgring or how good they are at scaling Snowdonia by the off-road route. I do care about having a car which works well both on the twisties, in town and on the motorway. Mr Porsche seems proficient at meeting my needs so I let him have my cash.

homerdog

244 posts

230 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
mrdemon said:
I don't know any pro's who use P esp sports ones,
Maybe not, but I bet they all use AF. By your analogy, that's dull and requires no skill what so ever.

Anyway, surely the talent of a photographer is all in the image itself, how they get the shot is irrelevant.

As for manual v PDK, I reckon the 'being more involved' argument is overstated. It seems to me, that the main reason for proclaiming a manual shift to be superior is based on the belief that it somehow bestows god-like driving ability on the claimant!

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I agree with this, but with one caveat. It is easy to overstate the involvement that comes from a manual in day-to-day driving. I miss it when driving spiritedly but not very much at all the rest of the time for the simple reason that changing gear (with or without a clutch) is not something that usually requires me to think about it. I select the appropriate gear, rev match and engage it without really noticing that I am doing so. Surely that is normal? You pull away from a junction and notice a few seconds later that you're in 6th gear without having noticed the up-changes.

As someone who drives across central London in traffic maybe once a week of so, I can tell you confidently that a manual box is not 'fun' in those circumstances. It makes the process infinitely less tolerable, and the clutch dancing and gear shuffling feels archaic. It made me like my wife's car considerably less that it, like all manual cars ever, is very ill-suited to London traffic.

In my view, there are things that PDK brings to the car that must be accepted as advantages as an all-round car: it is a lot better in traffic, and it is safer on the motorway. But these aren't very important compared to the fact that we drive these cars for pleasure (usually), and a manual box is more involving (so more fun).

ianrb

1,529 posts

139 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
mollytherocker said:
ianrb said:
But your SLR analogy falls down. Professional sports photographers tend to leave their cameras in P and concentrate on framing the shot they want; the P mode is so good that they know they cant do any better.

And most of the time there is no way I perform gear changes better than PDK, so why try to delude myself that I can better it? The old exception I can think of is when preparing for an overtake, PDK can't predict my gear changes, but I can.
Its so frustrating that you just dont get it.

We know that PDK is probably better in most situations, thats NOT THE POINT!

The point is that its more FUN trying to do it better yourself, you know, DRIVE!

By your logic, cars should be totally automated and we should sit in the back!
Your frustration is your problem and not the issue.

Maybe you do find fun in trying to best a machine, even a machine which is way better than you will ever be at a specific task, that's fine it's your life to live as you want. I prefer to focus on those things which machines are not very good at, they tend to be more interesting.


ianrb

1,529 posts

139 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
ChrisW. said:
You only chose PDK because actually you can't use a manual ? For whom are you talking ?


Edited by ChrisW. on Sunday 23 November 21:38
No, I have been driving a manual for many, many years. So I can use a manual just fine. I chose PDK because I like it. I was talking for myself, as it clear from the post.



J12KJR

2,860 posts

242 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
mollytherocker said:
J12KJR said:
So this started out as a is PDK quicker than a manual thread, does it matter.
It's turned into a which is better thread, again what does it matter.
To those that want to drive a manual you can, to those that want to drive a PDK you can. Neither camp will ever persuade the other that they are wrong so why not just enjoy driving whichever you prefer.
It doesnt matter to my mother.

If you are bothering to join this site and are a genuine car nut, it matters.

A lot.
It should matter to someone on track trying to win a race, does a tenth of a second here and there really matter to you on the road.
I bothered to join the site because I am an enthusiast but one that recognises we all have our own opinions and therefore the term best is a very subjective thing.
So you enjoy driving a lot thats good as it is the whole point of chosing the car you do but for you not necessarily for me.

Using your own comment from earlier if you like driving a car without mechanical or electrical intervention so much then why not get something along the lines of a TVR tuscan/Sagaris that doesn't even have the ABS that you would like to switch off on your (Very Lovely) 993.

We all make our own choices for our own reasons. I for one know my Vantage is not the best car out there but i enjoy it for what it is and the pleasure it gives me.

Edited by J12KJR on Monday 24th November 09:24

homerdog

244 posts

230 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I do enjoy using a manual gearbox, I have a car with one! I just think that the 'involvement' thing is overstated, as ORD mentioned above.

By the way, your second comment says more about you than it does about me!

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
J12KJR said:
i enjoy it for what it is and the pleasure it gives me.
IMO that's what a sports car is all about. smile

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
Cmoose you have no chance with homerdog I am afraid ;-) it's much worse on PCGB where I am in the 20% of manual drivers :-(

but I see on the thread above one of my top 3 reasons has popped up gain to quote said thread

"He might want an auto, as my sister-in-law is auto driver only"

lol that old corker again. plus I see the "London one come up again on this page"

I love stereotyping because it just works 95% of the time for people ;-)

V8KSN

4,711 posts

183 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
mrdemon said:
I don't think there are many genuine car nuts who enjoy diving for fun :-( maybe more on the Mx5 forum
I feel its true too, its a sad state of affairs frown

V8KSN

4,711 posts

183 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
The thing that frustrates me with these debates is if you have never 'properly' used a manual gearbox (by that I mean heel and toe gear shifting and rev matching etc) then PDK must seem like the bees knees!

Changing gear manually is so much more than just doing the shifting yourself, its about looking down the road and thinking about what gear you need, its about planning ahead and managing your entry speed to a given corner, trying to figure out what gear you should be in at the exit in order to maximise the power out of a given corner.

Approaching a long right hand corner that tightens and the camber falls away .... you are in fourth gear and you need second for the exit, there is a compression in the road just before the braking zone...

Where should I brake?
Where should I change gear?
Have you noticed the leaves on the ground right in the braking zone?
Have you rev matched your downshift to avoid wheel lock-up?

These are all the considerations you need to make when driving a fast car with a manual gearbox.

With a PDK you lose out on a lot of that, with a PDK you brake, pull on the change down paddle a couple of times, turn in and then back on the throttle. That's if you know what gear you are in to start with and therefore know how many times to pull down on the paddle.

If you don't use the paddles then its even easier, where is the fun in that?

For those that have PDK, when you are next out for a spirited drive, try and guess at any one point in time what gear you are in, I bet it will be difficult.

Trev450

Original Poster:

6,314 posts

171 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
mrdemon said:
Cmoose you have no chance with homerdog I am afraid ;-) it's much worse on PCGB where I am in the 20% of manual drivers :-(
Plenty of love for the manual over on Planet 9. smile

J12KJR

2,860 posts

242 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
V8KSN said:
The thing that frustrates me with these debates is if you have never 'properly' used a manual gearbox (by that I mean heel and toe gear shifting and rev matching etc) then PDK must seem like the bees knees!

Changing gear manually is so much more than just doing the shifting yourself, its about looking down the road and thinking about what gear you need, its about planning ahead and managing your entry speed to a given corner, trying to figure out what gear you should be in at the exit in order to maximise the power out of a given corner.

Approaching a long right hand corner that tightens and the camber falls away .... you are in fourth gear and you need second for the exit, there is a compression in the road just before the braking zone...

Where should I brake?
Where should I change gear?
Have you noticed the leaves on the ground right in the braking zone?
Have you rev matched your downshift to avoid wheel lock-up?

These are all the considerations you need to make when driving a fast car with a manual gearbox.

With a PDK you lose out on a lot of that, with a PDK you brake, pull on the change down paddle a couple of times, turn in and then back on the throttle. That's if you know what gear you are in to start with and therefore know how many times to pull down on the paddle.

If you don't use the paddles then its even easier, where is the fun in that?

For those that have PDK, when you are next out for a spirited drive, try and guess at any one point in time what gear you are in, I bet it will be difficult.
So according to you the person driving a PDK equipped car is not considering where they should brake, where they should change gear and won't have noticed the leaves on the road.
These manual cars you drive are amazing, they make you think about things that those drivers of auto/PDK/DSG equipped cars don't. Come on the only bit the driver in the PDK doesn't do is rev match themselves. They have a gear box that say when in town they can be lazy with and then when they are on their favourite stretch of B road they can use the paddles.
I really do fail to understand low opinion you have of the driving standards of someone who should be so ridiculous as to choose a different form of gearbox to you.

V8KSN

4,711 posts

183 months

Monday 24th November 2014
quotequote all
J12KJR said:
So according to you the person driving a PDK equipped car is not considering where they should brake, where they should change gear and won't have noticed the leaves on the road.
These manual cars you drive are amazing, they make you think about things that those drivers of auto/PDK/DSG equipped cars don't. Come on the only bit the driver in the PDK doesn't do is rev match themselves. They have a gear box that say when in town they can be lazy with and then when they are on their favourite stretch of B road they can use the paddles.
I really do fail to understand low opinion you have of the driving standards of someone who should be so ridiculous as to choose a different form of gearbox to you.
Sorry, J12 KJR I don't know what happened to my original post as there was a paragraph in there about engine braking and the role it plays in the scenario i described.

For the record, I don't have a low opinion of the driving standards of PDK owners