Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!!
Discussion
V8KSN said:
For those that have PDK, when you are next out for a spirited drive, try and guess at any one point in time what gear you are in, I bet it will be difficult.
That's quite the piece of cake, there is a great big number in front of you indicating the gear.Can't remember if my 7.1 GT3 had that, but I don't think it did?
V8KSN said:
The thing that frustrates me with these debates is if you have never 'properly' used a manual gearbox (by that I mean heel and toe gear shifting and rev matching etc) then PDK must seem like the bees knees!
Changing gear manually is so much more than just doing the shifting yourself, its about looking down the road and thinking about what gear you need, its about planning ahead and managing your entry speed to a given corner, trying to figure out what gear you should be in at the exit in order to maximise the power out of a given corner.
Approaching a long right hand corner that tightens and the camber falls away .... you are in fourth gear and you need second for the exit, there is a compression in the road just before the braking zone...
Where should I brake?
Where should I change gear?
Have you noticed the leaves on the ground right in the braking zone?
Have you rev matched your downshift to avoid wheel lock-up?
These are all the considerations you need to make when driving a fast car with a manual gearbox.
With a PDK you lose out on a lot of that, with a PDK you brake, pull on the change down paddle a couple of times, turn in and then back on the throttle. That's if you know what gear you are in to start with and therefore know how many times to pull down on the paddle.
If you don't use the paddles then its even easier, where is the fun in that?
For those that have PDK, when you are next out for a spirited drive, try and guess at any one point in time what gear you are in, I bet it will be difficult.
With PDK I would argue that for me, I trade involvement for speed and flair, how fast can I nail the tyres into the corner without the writing off the car. The electronics are helping me do this in respect of the speed (i am focused less on the the gears and clutch) and helping to control my slide. Changing gear manually is so much more than just doing the shifting yourself, its about looking down the road and thinking about what gear you need, its about planning ahead and managing your entry speed to a given corner, trying to figure out what gear you should be in at the exit in order to maximise the power out of a given corner.
Approaching a long right hand corner that tightens and the camber falls away .... you are in fourth gear and you need second for the exit, there is a compression in the road just before the braking zone...
Where should I brake?
Where should I change gear?
Have you noticed the leaves on the ground right in the braking zone?
Have you rev matched your downshift to avoid wheel lock-up?
These are all the considerations you need to make when driving a fast car with a manual gearbox.
With a PDK you lose out on a lot of that, with a PDK you brake, pull on the change down paddle a couple of times, turn in and then back on the throttle. That's if you know what gear you are in to start with and therefore know how many times to pull down on the paddle.
If you don't use the paddles then its even easier, where is the fun in that?
For those that have PDK, when you are next out for a spirited drive, try and guess at any one point in time what gear you are in, I bet it will be difficult.
We are seeing this taken to its Zenith with the Ferrari Speciale, you can see it in the videos. For the average driver, the car is more exciting to drive with the electronics on because, it allows you to slide it like a go cart in a repeatable fashion. You need some skill but not one of a racing driver.
What you have written is true enough but I would need to go into a much slower car for it to make sense to me now.
There is no hate for the manual box in the main its just that I see the future as being able to configure the drive (steering feel, 'box, suspension & Chassis) based on mood and not being stuck with one setup. For that, I am happy to trade the manual box.
V8KSN said:
J12KJR said:
So according to you the person driving a PDK equipped car is not considering where they should brake, where they should change gear and won't have noticed the leaves on the road.
These manual cars you drive are amazing, they make you think about things that those drivers of auto/PDK/DSG equipped cars don't. Come on the only bit the driver in the PDK doesn't do is rev match themselves. They have a gear box that say when in town they can be lazy with and then when they are on their favourite stretch of B road they can use the paddles.
I really do fail to understand low opinion you have of the driving standards of someone who should be so ridiculous as to choose a different form of gearbox to you.
Sorry, J12 KJR I don't know what happened to my original post as there was a paragraph in there about engine braking and the role it plays in the scenario i described.These manual cars you drive are amazing, they make you think about things that those drivers of auto/PDK/DSG equipped cars don't. Come on the only bit the driver in the PDK doesn't do is rev match themselves. They have a gear box that say when in town they can be lazy with and then when they are on their favourite stretch of B road they can use the paddles.
I really do fail to understand low opinion you have of the driving standards of someone who should be so ridiculous as to choose a different form of gearbox to you.
For the record, I don't have a low opinion of the driving standards of PDK owners
Don't see what difference there would be if you had a paragraph about engine braking in there though. A PDK car on the paddles will allow you to engine brake quite happily.
Technology has given us the option to either change gear ourselves with a gear lever and clutch pedal, using paddles without a clutch pedal or completely automatically. We should just be happy we have the the choice to make. To some the PDK is a cardinal sin to others its the best thing since sliced bread but however you want to view it you have the ability to have your car the way you want it. Whichever way that is just enjoy it.
J12KJR said:
No need for apologies you are entitled to your opinion it just came across that drivers of PDK cars wouldn't be bothering about their driving.
Don't see what difference there would be if you had a paragraph about engine braking in there though. A PDK car on the paddles will allow you to engine brake quite happily.
Technology has given us the option to either change gear ourselves with a gear lever and clutch pedal, using paddles without a clutch pedal or completely automatically. We should just be happy we have the the choice to make. To some the PDK is a cardinal sin to others its the best thing since sliced bread but however you want to view it you have the ability to have your car the way you want it. Whichever way that is just enjoy it.
Agree about choice, but there are many cars where the choice has been removed eg 991 GT3.Don't see what difference there would be if you had a paragraph about engine braking in there though. A PDK car on the paddles will allow you to engine brake quite happily.
Technology has given us the option to either change gear ourselves with a gear lever and clutch pedal, using paddles without a clutch pedal or completely automatically. We should just be happy we have the the choice to make. To some the PDK is a cardinal sin to others its the best thing since sliced bread but however you want to view it you have the ability to have your car the way you want it. Whichever way that is just enjoy it.
mrdemon said:
hobbies and things you do in your spare time, both PDK and P mode are the same thing imo, if it's your hobby and you enjoy doing either why automate them.
Because it takes a manual process which can sometimes be done better by machine, leaving more mind space to do the things that only mind-gear can make better ! But this depends also upon how open minded you are ...ChrisW. said:
Because it takes a manual process which can sometimes be done better by machine, leaving more mind space to do the things that only mind-gear can make better ! But this depends also upon how open minded you are ...
Maybe it depends how much mind you have! i get bored driving an auto on the road after a while, theres just not enough to do. Its too easy.mollytherocker said:
Maybe it depends how much mind you have! i get bored driving an auto on the road after a while, theres just not enough to do. Its too easy.
+ 1 that's the issue, great cars you borrow in the 1st 5 minutes can be exciting, have one for the day and it's all too easy.The only place they work is in a real race on a race track with 20 cars side by side.
So it's not about being open mined, I also get board s
tless driving a PDK.I shoot manual focus btw with my SLR :-) (not kidding either, with my older SLR the auto focus cannot keep up with race car, so I pre focus pan and shoot)
it's about learning a skill ;-)
mollytherocker said:
J12KJR said:
No need for apologies you are entitled to your opinion it just came across that drivers of PDK cars wouldn't be bothering about their driving.
Don't see what difference there would be if you had a paragraph about engine braking in there though. A PDK car on the paddles will allow you to engine brake quite happily.
Technology has given us the option to either change gear ourselves with a gear lever and clutch pedal, using paddles without a clutch pedal or completely automatically. We should just be happy we have the the choice to make. To some the PDK is a cardinal sin to others its the best thing since sliced bread but however you want to view it you have the ability to have your car the way you want it. Whichever way that is just enjoy it.
Agree about choice, but there are many cars where the choice has been removed eg 991 GT3.Don't see what difference there would be if you had a paragraph about engine braking in there though. A PDK car on the paddles will allow you to engine brake quite happily.
Technology has given us the option to either change gear ourselves with a gear lever and clutch pedal, using paddles without a clutch pedal or completely automatically. We should just be happy we have the the choice to make. To some the PDK is a cardinal sin to others its the best thing since sliced bread but however you want to view it you have the ability to have your car the way you want it. Whichever way that is just enjoy it.
Anyway from your previous comments why would you want a 991 GT3 with ABS, stability control etc it would drive itself
I've been driving for 48 years, mostly using a manual. My PDK GTS is my weekend fun car and it is an absolute gem in more ways than I can be bothered to list.
If I were to change my car I would spec PDK again, no question. Boring, never. Loads of fun, yes yes. Is a manual box for dinosaurs, not at all, it's a great piece of engineering but for me the PDK is better in every way and take my car to another level. IMO.
If I were to change my car I would spec PDK again, no question. Boring, never. Loads of fun, yes yes. Is a manual box for dinosaurs, not at all, it's a great piece of engineering but for me the PDK is better in every way and take my car to another level. IMO.
J12KJR said:
mollytherocker said:
J12KJR said:
No need for apologies you are entitled to your opinion it just came across that drivers of PDK cars wouldn't be bothering about their driving.
Don't see what difference there would be if you had a paragraph about engine braking in there though. A PDK car on the paddles will allow you to engine brake quite happily.
Technology has given us the option to either change gear ourselves with a gear lever and clutch pedal, using paddles without a clutch pedal or completely automatically. We should just be happy we have the the choice to make. To some the PDK is a cardinal sin to others its the best thing since sliced bread but however you want to view it you have the ability to have your car the way you want it. Whichever way that is just enjoy it.
Agree about choice, but there are many cars where the choice has been removed eg 991 GT3.Don't see what difference there would be if you had a paragraph about engine braking in there though. A PDK car on the paddles will allow you to engine brake quite happily.
Technology has given us the option to either change gear ourselves with a gear lever and clutch pedal, using paddles without a clutch pedal or completely automatically. We should just be happy we have the the choice to make. To some the PDK is a cardinal sin to others its the best thing since sliced bread but however you want to view it you have the ability to have your car the way you want it. Whichever way that is just enjoy it.
Anyway from your previous comments why would you want a 991 GT3 with ABS, stability control etc it would drive itself
I'm not saying that it maters. It doesn't. MPG is a completely bizarre obsession of legislators and the motoring press. If you are worried about a 2 or 3 mpg difference in a Porsche, you cannot afford to run one.
Incidentally, I think PDK helped me avoid an accident yesterday. Pootling along in 7th gear on the motorway; someone decided to move into my lane while I was overtaking them; stamp on the throttle; box shifts almost instantly into 3rd, rev-matching extremely quickly and absolutely fires me down the road and out of the way. Would
I have been on the ball enough to execute a racing shift in a manual? Maybe; maybe not. I would have been a close run thing without the help from the box.
I suspect there is too much association with the PDK box and say the ZF slush boxes from older Jags, when some people add their two penneth to this debate?
I have also driven manual since 1976, so not quite as long as Bud, but getting there and I agree with his views on this.
I still can't fully let go of the shift control timings (please don't start on about clutch pedals and cables etc), so I always drive in Sport (as the standard setting is far too lethargic and Audi A4 like) and only let the car do all the up/down timing selections, if I am in traffic of the kind that's stop/go.
On any other road situation, I generally use the paddles and if I am "going for it", the stick goes across to manual. I don't find any real lack of fun in not having a 3rd pedal to use, but I understand that it is somewhat less involving, but not enough to leave me enough "mind capacity" to read a book, as to me, gear shifting and h/t was always pretty instinctive, probably due to millions of repeat operations?
It is possible that some of this debate is age related? For me, driving my GT3 in any form of traffic became so tedious (and uncomfortable) that I stopped using it apart from Sundays. I just found the PDK such a flexible option for my usage today, that it was difficult to overlook?
Anyways, as previously mentioned, this is all speculation and each of us are different, but I am pretty sure that within 5-10 years, your stick shifters will be gone from all high end cars?
I have also driven manual since 1976, so not quite as long as Bud, but getting there and I agree with his views on this.
I still can't fully let go of the shift control timings (please don't start on about clutch pedals and cables etc), so I always drive in Sport (as the standard setting is far too lethargic and Audi A4 like) and only let the car do all the up/down timing selections, if I am in traffic of the kind that's stop/go.
On any other road situation, I generally use the paddles and if I am "going for it", the stick goes across to manual. I don't find any real lack of fun in not having a 3rd pedal to use, but I understand that it is somewhat less involving, but not enough to leave me enough "mind capacity" to read a book, as to me, gear shifting and h/t was always pretty instinctive, probably due to millions of repeat operations?
It is possible that some of this debate is age related? For me, driving my GT3 in any form of traffic became so tedious (and uncomfortable) that I stopped using it apart from Sundays. I just found the PDK such a flexible option for my usage today, that it was difficult to overlook?
Anyways, as previously mentioned, this is all speculation and each of us are different, but I am pretty sure that within 5-10 years, your stick shifters will be gone from all high end cars?
I'm quite sure you appreciate the difference moose, but if you read my comments, then Frank Caymans below it, that adds some weight to my point.
I never run the stop/start function in any circumstance as it is indeed, infuriating and why run the box in auto on the open road - different people coming at it from different angles and reaching different conclusions?
I never run the stop/start function in any circumstance as it is indeed, infuriating and why run the box in auto on the open road - different people coming at it from different angles and reaching different conclusions?
Eight pages of gearbox wking haha! Enjoyed that cup of coffee to go with it.
I've been driving for 34 years, mostly in manuals. The last 10 years mostly in autos and DCTs
My Boxster GTS is PDK because it's the best of both worlds with Sport Plus in manual mode using the centre console gear lever or flappy paddles. Plus I have osteoarthritis in my left knee so a clutch pedal is literally a pain.
To decide on the GTS I test drove a Boxster S with a manual shift, which was an enjoyable drive as well, but I got bored milling the stick up and down like a yo yo especially on the stupidly overcrowded UK A and B roads.
To really appreciate the craft of using a manual you need to either drive to Wales at 3am or do track days. Anyone trying to convince me that milling a stick on crowded roads, during commutes, in motorway traffic jams, and generally in most UK road conditions is having a laugh really, and I get the impression they have an inferiority complex or something to prove.
And all this LFB and H&T BS just makes me laugh, that "craft" belongs to a different era, different cars, different roads.
Finally to address the original topic, of course PDKs are faster than a manual, and Porsche publishes that openly.
king haha! Enjoyed that cup of coffee to go with it.I've been driving for 34 years, mostly in manuals. The last 10 years mostly in autos and DCTs
My Boxster GTS is PDK because it's the best of both worlds with Sport Plus in manual mode using the centre console gear lever or flappy paddles. Plus I have osteoarthritis in my left knee so a clutch pedal is literally a pain.
To decide on the GTS I test drove a Boxster S with a manual shift, which was an enjoyable drive as well, but I got bored milling the stick up and down like a yo yo especially on the stupidly overcrowded UK A and B roads.
To really appreciate the craft of using a manual you need to either drive to Wales at 3am or do track days. Anyone trying to convince me that milling a stick on crowded roads, during commutes, in motorway traffic jams, and generally in most UK road conditions is having a laugh really, and I get the impression they have an inferiority complex or something to prove.
And all this LFB and H&T BS just makes me laugh, that "craft" belongs to a different era, different cars, different roads.
Finally to address the original topic, of course PDKs are faster than a manual, and Porsche publishes that openly.
V8KSN said:
Very funny
............... hang on......... are you being serious?Somebody on this thread mentioned speed matching to prevent wheel lock up. No. Absolutely not at all. Wheel lock up on a downchange can only be achieved by ramming in completely the wrong gear.
Using a manual gearbox is a complete piece of piss because the technology (which was possibly fully developed by the 1970s) does it all for you. If you start driving at 17 you will have mastered it all by the time you're 18 and for the remaining decades all you need to do is the same thing, day after day after day. For decades women in Moggy Minors drove manual cars without a thought.
PDK is just an alternative method to changing gear using modern technology.
PDK owners will never get it, lets move on and let them enjoy the dull ness.
AT least my dad at 84 got in my ex M3 V8 420bhp competition and said, "well this is all a bit easy and boaring"
which did put a smile on my face, there is hope that you can enjoy driving after 60 after all.
Even Jag think that with this new Manual F type they have released.
There is a very small enthusiast market for being more involved in driving and if the GT4 is "MANUAL ONLY" that will shut a few people up and I hope make sure the 200 cars go to the right types of people,, the rest can enjoy their GTS PDK Audi's, I mean Porsche's, but really they may as well save 20k and buy a Audi imo unless people just buy on image these days.
Electric steering was enough for me to not order a 981, let alone having PDK as well, double dull ness.
I am a little concerned about the GT4 and electric steering mind you. but todays road racers are def the 991 GT3 and Nissan GTR play station drivers. people had so much issue getting a 911 to turn in Porsche had to fix that for the driver also with Rear wheel steer.
AS cmoose said, not long before the M1 has it's extra lane for full automated driving which should please many it seems.
AT least my dad at 84 got in my ex M3 V8 420bhp competition and said, "well this is all a bit easy and boaring"
which did put a smile on my face, there is hope that you can enjoy driving after 60 after all.
Even Jag think that with this new Manual F type they have released.
There is a very small enthusiast market for being more involved in driving and if the GT4 is "MANUAL ONLY" that will shut a few people up and I hope make sure the 200 cars go to the right types of people,, the rest can enjoy their GTS PDK Audi's, I mean Porsche's, but really they may as well save 20k and buy a Audi imo unless people just buy on image these days.
Electric steering was enough for me to not order a 981, let alone having PDK as well, double dull ness.
I am a little concerned about the GT4 and electric steering mind you. but todays road racers are def the 991 GT3 and Nissan GTR play station drivers. people had so much issue getting a 911 to turn in Porsche had to fix that for the driver also with Rear wheel steer.
AS cmoose said, not long before the M1 has it's extra lane for full automated driving which should please many it seems.
heebeegeetee said:
V8KSN said:
Very funny
............... hang on......... are you being serious?Somebody on this thread mentioned speed matching to prevent wheel lock up. No. Absolutely not at all. Wheel lock up on a downchange can only be achieved by ramming in completely the wrong gear.
Using a manual gearbox is a complete piece of piss because the technology (which was possibly fully developed by the 1970s) does it all for you. If you start driving at 17 you will have mastered it all by the time you're 18 and for the remaining decades all you need to do is the same thing, day after day after day. For decades women in Moggy Minors drove manual cars without a thought.
PDK is just an alternative method to changing gear using modern technology.
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