Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!!
Discussion
V8KSN said:
The drive to the wheels is ALWAYS broken when the clutch is released. It may be for only a fraction of a second in an F1 car but the drive to the wheels IS broken.
I will correct myself here, with a double clutch system, the torque is NOT interrupted during the gear change.However, I still maintain you have more control over the car with a manual gearbox.
V8KSN said:
I will correct myself here, with a double clutch system, the torque is NOT interrupted during the gear change.
However, I still maintain you have more control over the car with a manual gearbox.
I found when pushing on with PDK you get a slight push effect under braking, ie you are slamming down the gears and braking but the car is pushing slighty while down shifting. you seem to be fighting it esp if you are Threshold braking.However, I still maintain you have more control over the car with a manual gearbox.
the huge plus point for PDK is mid corner shift out the bend, or late change of what gear you need, PDK works well if you don't plan at all.
I would be faster in a PDK car no doubt, it's just no fun for me, and that's as simple as one needs for why not to buy it.
V8KSN said:
Question for those with PDK...
In a manual car, going at speed in 3rd gear, when you back hard off the throttle, the engine braking will slow the car down
In a PDK car (in auto) going at speed in 3rd gear, back hard off the throttle and ....what happens? Does it shift up a gear?
It depends. If you've been at WOT and lift completely, the 'box will assume that you want the engine braking and give you it (at least for a few seconds until it decides that you are actually cruising and will shift up a few gears). Generally, if you accelerate and brake hard, the 'box adapts and holds gears longer, including when off the throttle, and it will take lower gears during braking.In a manual car, going at speed in 3rd gear, when you back hard off the throttle, the engine braking will slow the car down
In a PDK car (in auto) going at speed in 3rd gear, back hard off the throttle and ....what happens? Does it shift up a gear?
It's actually a very clever thing, just not as good at knowing what gear I want as I am! For example, it will quite gladly drop into 3rd on a motorway when 4th would have been just fine.
But none of this is an issue really. - put the thing into manual, learn to avoid the gear shift override switch at the bottom of the pedal travel (you could even float the idea that this gives more finesse to your throttle inputs 
) and there is little difference between the cars (I didn't experience the "pushing" effect at the PEC, which is the hardest I have driven a 981 PDK in terms of braking).
It's gone on long enough now, you either get PDK, or you don't. The discussion of which is "best" is pointless and very subjective, so you may as well discuss alcantara vs leather steering wheels.
It is here to stay, along with assisted braking, ABS, electric steering, blah, blah......If you don't like any of that, go classic, but don't just stand outside the tent, pissing in.
) and there is little difference between the cars (I didn't experience the "pushing" effect at the PEC, which is the hardest I have driven a 981 PDK in terms of braking).It's gone on long enough now, you either get PDK, or you don't. The discussion of which is "best" is pointless and very subjective, so you may as well discuss alcantara vs leather steering wheels.
It is here to stay, along with assisted braking, ABS, electric steering, blah, blah......If you don't like any of that, go classic, but don't just stand outside the tent, pissing in.
heebeegeetee said:
Mornin' all,
Just to address some points...
The proponents/manufacturers of the double clutch gearboxes claim that the torque from engine to wheels remains unbroken. Googling around, on one site I found some info stating that the double clutches operate simultaneously, opening and closing at the same time. If the drive is indeed broke then VW are claiming an upshift time of 8 milliseconds according to one source.
One of my fave routes if I can get it at the right time is my local by-pass, a dual carriageway which has two very small and very little used roundabouts on it. I like to use this road when possible to clean my brake discs up and will approach said roundabouts at 150 if poss.
I then brake very hard and heel-and-toe my way down the box, gratuitously rev matching and enjoying the sound of the flat six. It's just a bit of fun, but it surprises me to find that fans of the old tech on these will state that by having the drive to the rear wheels disconnected for so (relatively) long and having one hand on the wheel affords me greater control than having continuous torque to the wheels and both hands on the wheel whilst braking hard.
Of course I could simply matters by simply braking very hard and block-shifting from sixth to second, but if we're only going to change once does it matter how the gear is selected?
Exiting the roundabout obviously I am not going to block-shift upwards so I will be making my way up to 150 again while repeatedly breaking the torque to the wheels and only having one hand on the wheel much of the time. It seems I am told this is better.
Some people (notably Robm77 IIRC) will talk about a manual car affording better balance through bends etc but I remain puzzled as to how the method of selection of the gear affects the balance, other than when the gear selection took place in the old manual car the torque to the wheels would have been broken for far longer.
When driving my wife's dsg car, when setting off from traffic lights alongside other cars ( on a dc and not in a hurry) I always watch from the corner of my eye to see if the bonnet of the other car dips as it changes gear - which is what almost always happens - whilst of course no such thing happens with the dsg car and I immediately gain space on the other car as it breaks its torque to its wheels.
I am surprised to be told that this pitch changing is better and affords more controllability (with the other driver having one hand on the wheel) than my dsg car remains stable with the driver keeping both hands on the wheel.
Why were you only doing 150? Your boxster can go better than that.Just to address some points...
The proponents/manufacturers of the double clutch gearboxes claim that the torque from engine to wheels remains unbroken. Googling around, on one site I found some info stating that the double clutches operate simultaneously, opening and closing at the same time. If the drive is indeed broke then VW are claiming an upshift time of 8 milliseconds according to one source.
One of my fave routes if I can get it at the right time is my local by-pass, a dual carriageway which has two very small and very little used roundabouts on it. I like to use this road when possible to clean my brake discs up and will approach said roundabouts at 150 if poss.
I then brake very hard and heel-and-toe my way down the box, gratuitously rev matching and enjoying the sound of the flat six. It's just a bit of fun, but it surprises me to find that fans of the old tech on these will state that by having the drive to the rear wheels disconnected for so (relatively) long and having one hand on the wheel affords me greater control than having continuous torque to the wheels and both hands on the wheel whilst braking hard.
Of course I could simply matters by simply braking very hard and block-shifting from sixth to second, but if we're only going to change once does it matter how the gear is selected?
Exiting the roundabout obviously I am not going to block-shift upwards so I will be making my way up to 150 again while repeatedly breaking the torque to the wheels and only having one hand on the wheel much of the time. It seems I am told this is better.
Some people (notably Robm77 IIRC) will talk about a manual car affording better balance through bends etc but I remain puzzled as to how the method of selection of the gear affects the balance, other than when the gear selection took place in the old manual car the torque to the wheels would have been broken for far longer.
When driving my wife's dsg car, when setting off from traffic lights alongside other cars ( on a dc and not in a hurry) I always watch from the corner of my eye to see if the bonnet of the other car dips as it changes gear - which is what almost always happens - whilst of course no such thing happens with the dsg car and I immediately gain space on the other car as it breaks its torque to its wheels.
I am surprised to be told that this pitch changing is better and affords more controllability (with the other driver having one hand on the wheel) than my dsg car remains stable with the driver keeping both hands on the wheel.
First let me say I "get" why people prefer interacting with a manual - at least if it's as good as the Cayman one. And if that gives them the most pleasure then fine Indeed when buying my 981 Cayman I was convinced I wanted a manual - before I was forced to try the PDK because the dealer didn't have a manual demonstrator.
I chose a PDK because there is no way that I (or even my son who is a top class racing driver) can make gear changes as quickly AND smoothly as the PDK can. If I'm driving sportingly I drive the car "manually" because I can make better choices about which gear and when. That means I can better focus on the business of cornering, overtaking or whatever.
That works for most people, even on the track. Amongst other things, my son teams up with "gentleman" racers in GTs who invariably go quicker (get closer to his pace) with the aid of clutchless gearboxes (and ABS), though he would argue that he can always outbrake an ABS system (even if he can't outshift a clutchless gearbox).
If you REALLY want to exercise basic skills then drive a historic racing car with a crash box, no ABS, PSM or any other acronym. Failing that drive a Caterham or Lotus Elise (and as a byproduct find out how lacking in feel the Cayman's steering is).
The Cayman is a great car - but it's far from "pure", and I don't think it makes sense to get prissy about one of its driving aids.
I chose a PDK because there is no way that I (or even my son who is a top class racing driver) can make gear changes as quickly AND smoothly as the PDK can. If I'm driving sportingly I drive the car "manually" because I can make better choices about which gear and when. That means I can better focus on the business of cornering, overtaking or whatever.
That works for most people, even on the track. Amongst other things, my son teams up with "gentleman" racers in GTs who invariably go quicker (get closer to his pace) with the aid of clutchless gearboxes (and ABS), though he would argue that he can always outbrake an ABS system (even if he can't outshift a clutchless gearbox).
If you REALLY want to exercise basic skills then drive a historic racing car with a crash box, no ABS, PSM or any other acronym. Failing that drive a Caterham or Lotus Elise (and as a byproduct find out how lacking in feel the Cayman's steering is).
The Cayman is a great car - but it's far from "pure", and I don't think it makes sense to get prissy about one of its driving aids.
bcr5784 said:
First let me say I "get" why people prefer interacting with a manual - at least if it's as good as the Cayman one. And if that gives them the most pleasure then fine Indeed when buying my 981 Cayman I was convinced I wanted a manual - before I was forced to try the PDK because the dealer didn't have a manual demonstrator.
I chose a PDK because there is no way that I (or even my son who is a top class racing driver) can make gear changes as quickly AND smoothly as the PDK can. If I'm driving sportingly I drive the car "manually" because I can make better choices about which gear and when. That means I can better focus on the business of cornering, overtaking or whatever.
That works for most people, even on the track. Amongst other things, my son teams up with "gentleman" racers in GTs who invariably go quicker (get closer to his pace) with the aid of clutchless gearboxes (and ABS), though he would argue that he can always outbrake an ABS system (even if he can't outshift a clutchless gearbox).
If you REALLY want to exercise basic skills then drive a historic racing car with a crash box, no ABS, PSM or any other acronym. Failing that drive a Caterham or Lotus Elise (and as a byproduct find out how lacking in feel the Cayman's steering is).
The Cayman is a great car - but it's far from "pure", and I don't think it makes sense to get prissy about one of its driving aids.
I think that is a perfectly reasonable and understandable view.I chose a PDK because there is no way that I (or even my son who is a top class racing driver) can make gear changes as quickly AND smoothly as the PDK can. If I'm driving sportingly I drive the car "manually" because I can make better choices about which gear and when. That means I can better focus on the business of cornering, overtaking or whatever.
That works for most people, even on the track. Amongst other things, my son teams up with "gentleman" racers in GTs who invariably go quicker (get closer to his pace) with the aid of clutchless gearboxes (and ABS), though he would argue that he can always outbrake an ABS system (even if he can't outshift a clutchless gearbox).
If you REALLY want to exercise basic skills then drive a historic racing car with a crash box, no ABS, PSM or any other acronym. Failing that drive a Caterham or Lotus Elise (and as a byproduct find out how lacking in feel the Cayman's steering is).
The Cayman is a great car - but it's far from "pure", and I don't think it makes sense to get prissy about one of its driving aids.
However, I disagree with most of it, especially where you say its just another driving aid. Its far more than that to me. Far more.
If the PDK gearbox delivers more FUN for you and enhances your enjoyment of the car then that is excellent.
For others, it detracts MASSIVELY from the enjoyment and involvement of driving these cars.
There is no right or wrong and how fast a given car changes gear has nothing to do with it.
For others, it detracts MASSIVELY from the enjoyment and involvement of driving these cars.
There is no right or wrong and how fast a given car changes gear has nothing to do with it.
I get the point cmoose is making - computers can control functions of my car better than I can. That means I don't get to enjoy controlling those functions myself. Clutch control and gear changing at the correct time are a large part of the involvement for the driver
I choose PDK because I was getting bored with manual gear shifting, mostly because my 996 had quite clunky gears
Another feature of PDK is it protects the engine from my clumsy driving. I can't over-rev or miss a gear or try to pull off in the wrong gear. For that reason, I can drive the car with more confidence that I won't damage the engine or gearbox when I decide to raise the speed a bit
I choose PDK because I was getting bored with manual gear shifting, mostly because my 996 had quite clunky gears
Another feature of PDK is it protects the engine from my clumsy driving. I can't over-rev or miss a gear or try to pull off in the wrong gear. For that reason, I can drive the car with more confidence that I won't damage the engine or gearbox when I decide to raise the speed a bit
The last few PDK owners are all admitting to buying a PDK because they lack the skills to drive a manual.
That's fair imo.
It's not easy to drive a manual if you don't do the miles , and let's face it not many people are out driving all day.
I was a field eng for 20 odd years doing 40k a year and I now drive 15k miles pa these days.
I just don't find Driving a manual a hardship or it robs my brain to make me corner s
t like a poster said about 4 posts back
To quote, he choose PDK to "allow him to corner better and over take better" not really a issue I have.
I am the other way, drive a PDK and I feel brain dead and become lazy and concentrate less.
Some people do 5k miles a year , I have built up the miles over 30 years and like any sport you have to do the miles to be any good.
That's fair imo.
It's not easy to drive a manual if you don't do the miles , and let's face it not many people are out driving all day.
I was a field eng for 20 odd years doing 40k a year and I now drive 15k miles pa these days.
I just don't find Driving a manual a hardship or it robs my brain to make me corner s
t like a poster said about 4 posts backTo quote, he choose PDK to "allow him to corner better and over take better" not really a issue I have.
I am the other way, drive a PDK and I feel brain dead and become lazy and concentrate less.
Some people do 5k miles a year , I have built up the miles over 30 years and like any sport you have to do the miles to be any good.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Read all of my post - I answered it before - saying that it allowed me to focus on other aspects of driving including cornering. So answer my question. PVT or no, Psm or no, ABS or no. And to mrdemon - yes I can change gear and habitually heel and toe when in a manual - and have done for 40 years. And I'm pretty sure you can't do gearchanges as well as the PDK can.
But the point is, like it or not, practically all cars are increasingly intervening - would those wedded to manual gearboxes REALLY turn their nose up at a GT3/458/MP12C, all of which intervene in the gearchanging, braking, steering. Get used to it.
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 29th November 21:50
anonymous said:
[redacted]
As I said in the original post " That means I can better focus on the business of cornering, overtaking or whatever ". So clearly I want to steer the car. That doesn't mean that I am averse to the car having PVT, active anti-roll bars, torque shifting (in 4 wheel drive cars) etc which aid me in pointing it in the right direction.So how about you? Do you object to PVT? Are you so skilled that you would brake better without ABS. Do you always turn PSM off?
I get pleasure from changing gear, and see why it may be critical for some, but I'm simply not sure why a manual gearbox is a religeous act of faith and those for whom it is not essential are heretics. There are plenty of things a car does itself that give pleasure (like the sound of the engine or exhaust). I actually like the slick way IT changes gear.
I can also see why others may regard PAS as something to be avoided (I've owned 2 Lotuses and a Caterham) - but again I don't see is a tenet of faith or test of manhood.
Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 29th November 22:47
bcr5784 said:
As I said in the original post " That means I can better focus on the business of cornering, overtaking or whatever ". So clearly I want to steer the car. That doesn't mean that I am averse to the car having PVT, active anti-roll bars, torque shifting (in 4 wheel drive cars) etc which aid me in pointing it in the right direction.
So how about you? Do you object to PVT? Are you so skilled that you would brake better without ABS. Do you always turn PSM off?
I am really struggling to see how having an auto gearbox helps you concentrate on cornering or overtaking.So how about you? Do you object to PVT? Are you so skilled that you would brake better without ABS. Do you always turn PSM off?
Are you honestly trying to say that if you have you change gear yourself then you can't steer the car?
V8KSN said:
I am really struggling to see how having an auto gearbox helps you concentrate on cornering or overtaking.
Are you honestly trying to say that if you have you change gear yourself then you can't steer the car?
If you read my post you would see that I actually said when driving quickly I "manually" change gear. The point is the PDK does it better than I (and I suspect everyone posting) can. So I can drive quicker or smoother or both. Are you honestly trying to say that if you have you change gear yourself then you can't steer the car?
It's not that I would take that view of all (or even most) auto boxes. I drove a Tiptronic 911 and wouldn't dream of buying one. Not keen on VW DSGs either, but the PDK on the Cayman etc is widely regarded as amongst the very best.
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