Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!!
Discussion
mollytherocker said:
Cmoose, we will never get an answer. You do know that.
Its because the question is not understood. Despite our efforts.
The crux of the issue is if (as a PDK owner) you have never historically used a manual gearbox 'properly' then you will not see the value of it. Instead, you will see it as a hinderance to 'making progress' Its because the question is not understood. Despite our efforts.
V8KSN said:
mollytherocker said:
Cmoose, we will never get an answer. You do know that.
Its because the question is not understood. Despite our efforts.
The crux of the issue is if (as a PDK owner) you have never historically used a manual gearbox 'properly' then you will not see the value of it. Instead, you will see it as a hinderance to 'making progress' Its because the question is not understood. Despite our efforts.
Its faster than a human, its better in traffic, my wife needs it, i cant operate more than one function at once.... Etc etc
I am not talking to any PDK owners now who run a standard geo :-)
I am only going to answer questions and respond to people on here about stuff who run a non oem geo's :-)
Some people are just into driving more than others, most people who argue about how good PDK is will never change the geo and so don't even want to get the best from their cars. So it's not really worth even talking to these people is it ?
they want to save 2/10th on a straight line but be 3 seconds slower on every bend !
I have not run a oem geo for about 20 years on any car.
you can add the N spec b
ks people run to that also ;-)
now put a PDK car round a track with oem geo and N spec P zero's vs a car with a custom geo and PSS and see which car is fastest.
But if PDK helps people think more about steering on the road or allows them to overtake, it has to be a good thing lol.
I am only going to answer questions and respond to people on here about stuff who run a non oem geo's :-)
Some people are just into driving more than others, most people who argue about how good PDK is will never change the geo and so don't even want to get the best from their cars. So it's not really worth even talking to these people is it ?
they want to save 2/10th on a straight line but be 3 seconds slower on every bend !
I have not run a oem geo for about 20 years on any car.
you can add the N spec b
ks people run to that also ;-)now put a PDK car round a track with oem geo and N spec P zero's vs a car with a custom geo and PSS and see which car is fastest.
But if PDK helps people think more about steering on the road or allows them to overtake, it has to be a good thing lol.
Heel and toe gearchanging is no more a fundamental part of driving than double declutching is. I am absolutely sure that when synchromesh came in die hards said very similar things (and I can remember people defending the lack of synchromesh on first). PDK vs manual is no different. There is a similar argument on bikes about linked brakes (you can steer the bike on the rear brake).
The fact of the matter is that, however skilled you are, you can drive more quickly or more smoothly or both with a good double clutch gearbox. If your ultimate aim is to do that then you will use what aids are available to do that. If you prefer to exercise your skills at heel and toeing that is also fine (I frequently do) but don't suggest it gives you the moral high ground. The need to heel and toe just comes about because of the state of car development at this point in time - just as the need to double declutch did 60 or 70 years ago.
It's just the same argument as photography. if your aim is to produce the best photos you will use autofocus, autometering multi shots to achieve that. And will, as necessary, override the automation when you can do better than the system can.
If you cannot understand that then sorry. This argument about not being able to change gear or heel and toe is just arrogance. I can do both, actually enjoy both, but don't regard it as the most important aspect of driving well.
The fact of the matter is that, however skilled you are, you can drive more quickly or more smoothly or both with a good double clutch gearbox. If your ultimate aim is to do that then you will use what aids are available to do that. If you prefer to exercise your skills at heel and toeing that is also fine (I frequently do) but don't suggest it gives you the moral high ground. The need to heel and toe just comes about because of the state of car development at this point in time - just as the need to double declutch did 60 or 70 years ago.
It's just the same argument as photography. if your aim is to produce the best photos you will use autofocus, autometering multi shots to achieve that. And will, as necessary, override the automation when you can do better than the system can.
If you cannot understand that then sorry. This argument about not being able to change gear or heel and toe is just arrogance. I can do both, actually enjoy both, but don't regard it as the most important aspect of driving well.
mrdemon said:
1. The last few PDK owners are all admitting to buying a PDK because they lack the skills to drive a manual.
That's fair imo.
2. It's not easy to drive a manual if you don't do the miles , and let's face it not many people are out driving all day.
3. I was a field eng for 20 odd years doing 40k a year and I now drive 15k miles pa these days.
4. I just don't find Driving a manual a hardship or it robs my brain to make me corner st like a poster said about 4 posts back
5. To quote, he choose PDK to "allow him to corner better and over take better" not really a issue I have.
6. I am the other way, drive a PDK and I feel brain dead and become lazy and concentrate less.
7. Some people do 5k miles a year , I have built up the miles over 30 years and like any sport you have to do the miles to be any good.
I'll go with this post:That's fair imo.
2. It's not easy to drive a manual if you don't do the miles , and let's face it not many people are out driving all day.
3. I was a field eng for 20 odd years doing 40k a year and I now drive 15k miles pa these days.
4. I just don't find Driving a manual a hardship or it robs my brain to make me corner s
t like a poster said about 4 posts back5. To quote, he choose PDK to "allow him to corner better and over take better" not really a issue I have.
6. I am the other way, drive a PDK and I feel brain dead and become lazy and concentrate less.
7. Some people do 5k miles a year , I have built up the miles over 30 years and like any sport you have to do the miles to be any good.
1. There is *no* skill required to change gear. Learners master it in next to no time and then their learning is done pretty much for the rest of their lives. Changing gear in a modern (ie pretty much anything post fifties really) is very, very easy, but can get boring imo.
2. Oh my god it *is*, it is extremely easy. Oh for crying out loud, you can't possibly be saying that driving modern cars takes skill? Everybody can drive them and the Mrs Migginses of the world have been driving manual gearboxes for decades.
My mother in law didn't drive because she... well, was a bit of fruitcake tbh (god rest her soul) but even she described their Austin 1100 that they had in the sixties as an amazing car that seemed to drive itself and she couldn't get over how easy (and nice) changing gear is. Moggy Minors, Austin A30s, Ford Anglias etc etc, all had great gearchanges which were easy to do and so has pretty much everything since. If you really want to change gear yourself then you really do have to go vintage imo.
3. Aren't you bored out of your brains? I have to say, I see things the other way round to you - it's the people who don't get out much who are still fascinated by the novelty of changing gear, and those that do a lot of miles got bored years ago. I mean, don't you hate being in a traffic jam and having to crawl along on the clutch?
4. No of course not, you couldn't do.
5. We're all different, and of course others may disagree re your driving.
6. We're all different.
7. So what? You can master a manual gearbox in anything remotely modern in about 10 miles. I mastered it in the car park of my parents pub when I was 15.
--
Long ago the manual gearbox was pretty much homed to near-perfection and in the remaining decades they have gotten ever better and more reliable (not that they've been unreliable since decades ago). Sliding shafts, syncromesh (the components that take all skill out of changing gear) lubricants, materials, have all take all skill out of changing gear, and exactly the same applies to clutches.
All the work is done for the driver apart from the actual act of selecting the individual gears themselves. Some choose to still do that themselves, but they will always be slower and possibly more imprecise (though that doesn't matter too much) than the best automated manuals. The only meaningful difference between the two is the automated manual doesn't have a pair of eyes to see when it's best to change gear, but then all these gearboxes can be driven manually so that needn't be an issue.
Re Cmooses question over steering, steering is always nice imo but for me changing gear got boring a long time ago. Sure, on a hoon I absolutely want to change gear myself, so a manual would be best for about 5% of the time but for the remaining 95% of the time it's boring, whereas I never get fed up of steering the car.
I think the better analogy between steering and gear changing is maybe that manual cars is like having a car with power steering but with the caster angle removed so that the driver has to steer at all times.
heebeegeetee said:
There is *no* skill required to change gear. Learners master it in next to no time and then their learning is done pretty much for the rest of their lives. Changing gear in a modern (ie pretty much anything post fifties really) is very, very easy, but can get boring imo
I have offered to take you out in my car and show you what I mean about rev matching when changing gear but you are obviously not interested in changing your view on manual gear changing.Edited by V8KSN on Sunday 30th November 18:34
heebeegeetee said:
I'll go with this post:
1. There is *no* skill required to change gear. Learners master it in next to no time and then their learning is done pretty much for the rest of their lives. Changing gear in a modern (ie pretty much anything post fifties really) is very, very easy, but can get boring imo.
2. Oh my god it *is*, it is extremely easy. Oh for crying out loud, you can't possibly be saying that driving modern cars takes skill? Everybody can drive them and the Mrs Migginses of the world have been driving manual gearboxes for decades.
My mother in law didn't drive because she... well, was a bit of fruitcake tbh (god rest her soul) but even she described their Austin 1100 that they had in the sixties as an amazing car that seemed to drive itself and she couldn't get over how easy (and nice) changing gear is. Moggy Minors, Austin A30s, Ford Anglias etc etc, all had great gearchanges which were easy to do and so has pretty much everything since. If you really want to change gear yourself then you really do have to go vintage imo.
3. Aren't you bored out of your brains? I have to say, I see things the other way round to you - it's the people who don't get out much who are still fascinated by the novelty of changing gear, and those that do a lot of miles got bored years ago. I mean, don't you hate being in a traffic jam and having to crawl along on the clutch?
4. No of course not, you couldn't do.
5. We're all different, and of course others may disagree re your driving.
6. We're all different.
7. So what? You can master a manual gearbox in anything remotely modern in about 10 miles. I mastered it in the car park of my parents pub when I was 15.
--
Long ago the manual gearbox was pretty much homed to near-perfection and in the remaining decades they have gotten ever better and more reliable (not that they've been unreliable since decades ago). Sliding shafts, syncromesh (the components that take all skill out of changing gear) lubricants, materials, have all take all skill out of changing gear, and exactly the same applies to clutches.
All the work is done for the driver apart from the actual act of selecting the individual gears themselves. Some choose to still do that themselves, but they will always be slower and possibly more imprecise (though that doesn't matter too much) than the best automated manuals. The only meaningful difference between the two is the automated manual doesn't have a pair of eyes to see when it's best to change gear, but then all these gearboxes can be driven manually so that needn't be an issue.
Re Cmooses question over steering, steering is always nice imo but for me changing gear got boring a long time ago. Sure, on a hoon I absolutely want to change gear myself, so a manual would be best for about 5% of the time but for the remaining 95% of the time it's boring, whereas I never get fed up of steering the car.
I think the better analogy between steering and gear changing is maybe that manual cars is like having a car with power steering but with the caster angle removed so that the driver has to steer at all times.
I am afraid your post proves that you (and many other) PDK fans have no idea what a manual gearbox is about. Anyone can learn one in 15 minutes? Hilarious.1. There is *no* skill required to change gear. Learners master it in next to no time and then their learning is done pretty much for the rest of their lives. Changing gear in a modern (ie pretty much anything post fifties really) is very, very easy, but can get boring imo.
2. Oh my god it *is*, it is extremely easy. Oh for crying out loud, you can't possibly be saying that driving modern cars takes skill? Everybody can drive them and the Mrs Migginses of the world have been driving manual gearboxes for decades.
My mother in law didn't drive because she... well, was a bit of fruitcake tbh (god rest her soul) but even she described their Austin 1100 that they had in the sixties as an amazing car that seemed to drive itself and she couldn't get over how easy (and nice) changing gear is. Moggy Minors, Austin A30s, Ford Anglias etc etc, all had great gearchanges which were easy to do and so has pretty much everything since. If you really want to change gear yourself then you really do have to go vintage imo.
3. Aren't you bored out of your brains? I have to say, I see things the other way round to you - it's the people who don't get out much who are still fascinated by the novelty of changing gear, and those that do a lot of miles got bored years ago. I mean, don't you hate being in a traffic jam and having to crawl along on the clutch?
4. No of course not, you couldn't do.
5. We're all different, and of course others may disagree re your driving.
6. We're all different.
7. So what? You can master a manual gearbox in anything remotely modern in about 10 miles. I mastered it in the car park of my parents pub when I was 15.
--
Long ago the manual gearbox was pretty much homed to near-perfection and in the remaining decades they have gotten ever better and more reliable (not that they've been unreliable since decades ago). Sliding shafts, syncromesh (the components that take all skill out of changing gear) lubricants, materials, have all take all skill out of changing gear, and exactly the same applies to clutches.
All the work is done for the driver apart from the actual act of selecting the individual gears themselves. Some choose to still do that themselves, but they will always be slower and possibly more imprecise (though that doesn't matter too much) than the best automated manuals. The only meaningful difference between the two is the automated manual doesn't have a pair of eyes to see when it's best to change gear, but then all these gearboxes can be driven manually so that needn't be an issue.
Re Cmooses question over steering, steering is always nice imo but for me changing gear got boring a long time ago. Sure, on a hoon I absolutely want to change gear myself, so a manual would be best for about 5% of the time but for the remaining 95% of the time it's boring, whereas I never get fed up of steering the car.
I think the better analogy between steering and gear changing is maybe that manual cars is like having a car with power steering but with the caster angle removed so that the driver has to steer at all times.
You really think its just about dipping the clutch and engaging a gear dont you?
This is why you simply do not understand. And there isnt the space to explain it in text to you here. Somebody needs to show you.
I will give you one point. Some time ago I was on a track day and had a few rides with some what I thought were seasoned track dayers
One guy blew me away with his smooth driving style, balancing the car into the corner, using the gearbox seamlessly with rev matching etc and trail braking to the apex etc etc. I learnt lots in that 30 minutes.
Later that day, I was in a 997 3.8 GT3 RS. The guy had all the gear etc. I have never been so scared in my life. He was all over the place, ramming it into gear on change downs, no rev matching, unsettling the rear of the car, no finesse or car control whatsoever.
I have no doubt that he loves PDK now.
Oh, and dont ask me when and where as these guys are on here....
Edited by mollytherocker on Sunday 30th November 10:59
That is arrogance on a grand scale. Like I said my son is a top class racing driver (with lots of race and national championship wins, lap records, ex Toyota F1 etc to prove it) and and I have seen what he does, and yes it's highly impressive (and very butt clenching too).
But do you really think Louis Hamilton or the world karting champion really feel any less for not actually changing gear for themselves? Do you think Marques bemoans the fact that his bike has a dual clutch gearbox, traction and wheelie control. Or do you think they prefer being able to concentrate of the things that actually matter (on a race track) - getting round corners quickly, braking as late as possible, and (these days) preserving their tyres?
This is what Valentino Rossi (he's quite good I believe...) said "Yamaha is working feverishly on its own seamless gearbox. Rider Valentino Rossi explains the advantages: "For me, in one lap it doesn't change a lot ... I mean the lap time. A lot of people speak about two-tenths for a lap—I think it's less than two-tenths. But the big improvement, I think, is in the 20 or 30 laps, because the bike becomes a lot easier to ride, is more stable, more stable in acceleration, but also more stable in braking."
But do you really think Louis Hamilton or the world karting champion really feel any less for not actually changing gear for themselves? Do you think Marques bemoans the fact that his bike has a dual clutch gearbox, traction and wheelie control. Or do you think they prefer being able to concentrate of the things that actually matter (on a race track) - getting round corners quickly, braking as late as possible, and (these days) preserving their tyres?
This is what Valentino Rossi (he's quite good I believe...) said "Yamaha is working feverishly on its own seamless gearbox. Rider Valentino Rossi explains the advantages: "For me, in one lap it doesn't change a lot ... I mean the lap time. A lot of people speak about two-tenths for a lap—I think it's less than two-tenths. But the big improvement, I think, is in the 20 or 30 laps, because the bike becomes a lot easier to ride, is more stable, more stable in acceleration, but also more stable in braking."
mollytherocker said:
I will give you one point. I recently was on a track day and had a few rides with some what I thought were seasoned track dayers
One guy blew me away with his smooth driving style using the gearbox seamlessly with rev matching etc and trail braking to the apex etc etc.
Later that day, I was in a 997 3.8 GT3 RS. The guy had all the gear. He was all over the place, ramming it into gear on change downs, no rev matching, unsettling the rear of the car, no finesse or car control whatsoever
Oh, and dont ask me when and where as these guys are on here....
FFS, I thought I told you I was having bad day that day. Ok ? One guy blew me away with his smooth driving style using the gearbox seamlessly with rev matching etc and trail braking to the apex etc etc.
Later that day, I was in a 997 3.8 GT3 RS. The guy had all the gear. He was all over the place, ramming it into gear on change downs, no rev matching, unsettling the rear of the car, no finesse or car control whatsoever
Oh, and dont ask me when and where as these guys are on here....
These are just a few of the issues I was dealing with that day :
“My tyres were too cold”
“My tyres were too hot”
“I was distracted by a marshal”
“The setup wasn’t quite right”
“The engine wasn’t strong enough there”
“The car was too heavy”
“We had a weight disadvantage”
“I saw cars on the horizon, and they distracted me”
“My feet/hands were too cold”
“The battery voltage was falling too fast”
“My wheelbearings were shot”
“The shift lights came on too slowly”
“The ride height wasn’t quite right; when it is I’ll be bang on the pace”
“There was a misfire on gear changes”
“I didn’t have time to walk the track”
“It was too wet”
“I never got a clean lap”
“The yellow flags came out when I was on a quick lap”
“The red flag came out when I was 2 seconds up”
“The throttle stuck open”
“Changing gear gives me a blister”
“I had major understeer & oversteer”
“I was jetlagged”
“I was drunk last night, and out until 3am”
“I was trying new lines”
“The gearing was wrong”
And of course, my favorite
"The car lacked balance"
D
What I am talking about is what is fun and challenging in a road and track car! Not the last 2 tenths, I am not racing anbody, thats not important!
There are so many techniques to,learn and become competent at, and PDK takes many of them off you and does it for you.
If you are happy that it is taken away from you, then that is fine. But I want to do it myself!
Its fun!
bcr5784 said:
That is arrogance on a grand scale. Like I said my son is a top class racing driver (with lots of race and national championship wins, lap records, ex Toyota F1 etc to prove it) and and I have seen what he does, and yes it's highly impressive (and very butt clenching too).
But do you really think Louis Hamilton or the world karting champion really feel any less for not actually changing gear for themselves? Do you think Marques bemoans the fact that his bike has a dual clutch gearbox, traction and wheelie control. Or do you think they prefer being able to concentrate of the things that actually matter (on a race track) - getting round corners quickly, braking as late as possible, and (these days) preserving their tyres?
This is what Valentino Rossi (he's quite good I believe...) said "Yamaha is working feverishly on its own seamless gearbox. Rider Valentino Rossi explains the advantages: "For me, in one lap it doesn't change a lot ... I mean the lap time. A lot of people speak about two-tenths for a lap—I think it's less than two-tenths. But the big improvement, I think, is in the 20 or 30 laps, because the bike becomes a lot easier to ride, is more stable, more stable in acceleration, but also more stable in braking."
You see, your confusing 2 different things. Lewis Hamilton couldnt give a stuff, he is in a competition and needs the absolute fastest solution in every area of his car. If that was a manual gearbox, he would have one fitted! He is not seeking driving enjoyment, he only wants to win the WDC!But do you really think Louis Hamilton or the world karting champion really feel any less for not actually changing gear for themselves? Do you think Marques bemoans the fact that his bike has a dual clutch gearbox, traction and wheelie control. Or do you think they prefer being able to concentrate of the things that actually matter (on a race track) - getting round corners quickly, braking as late as possible, and (these days) preserving their tyres?
This is what Valentino Rossi (he's quite good I believe...) said "Yamaha is working feverishly on its own seamless gearbox. Rider Valentino Rossi explains the advantages: "For me, in one lap it doesn't change a lot ... I mean the lap time. A lot of people speak about two-tenths for a lap—I think it's less than two-tenths. But the big improvement, I think, is in the 20 or 30 laps, because the bike becomes a lot easier to ride, is more stable, more stable in acceleration, but also more stable in braking."
What I am talking about is what is fun and challenging in a road and track car! Not the last 2 tenths, I am not racing anbody, thats not important!
There are so many techniques to,learn and become competent at, and PDK takes many of them off you and does it for you.
If you are happy that it is taken away from you, then that is fine. But I want to do it myself!
Its fun!
Slippydiff said:
FFS, I thought I told you I was having bad day that day. Ok ?
These are just a few of the issues I was dealing with that day :
“My tyres were too cold”
“My tyres were too hot”
“I was distracted by a marshal”
“The setup wasn’t quite right”
“The engine wasn’t strong enough there”
“The car was too heavy”
“We had a weight disadvantage”
“I saw cars on the horizon, and they distracted me”
“My feet/hands were too cold”
“The battery voltage was falling too fast”
“My wheelbearings were shot”
“The shift lights came on too slowly”
“The ride height wasn’t quite right; when it is I’ll be bang on the pace”
“There was a misfire on gear changes”
“I didn’t have time to walk the track”
“It was too wet”
“I never got a clean lap”
“The yellow flags came out when I was on a quick lap”
“The red flag came out when I was 2 seconds up”
“The throttle stuck open”
“Changing gear gives me a blister”
“I had major understeer & oversteer”
“I was jetlagged”
“I was drunk last night, and out until 3am”
“I was trying new lines”
“The gearing was wrong”
And of course, my favorite
"The car lacked balance"
Cheers Slippy, I have saved this list for my personal use! These are just a few of the issues I was dealing with that day :
“My tyres were too cold”
“My tyres were too hot”
“I was distracted by a marshal”
“The setup wasn’t quite right”
“The engine wasn’t strong enough there”
“The car was too heavy”
“We had a weight disadvantage”
“I saw cars on the horizon, and they distracted me”
“My feet/hands were too cold”
“The battery voltage was falling too fast”
“My wheelbearings were shot”
“The shift lights came on too slowly”
“The ride height wasn’t quite right; when it is I’ll be bang on the pace”
“There was a misfire on gear changes”
“I didn’t have time to walk the track”
“It was too wet”
“I never got a clean lap”
“The yellow flags came out when I was on a quick lap”
“The red flag came out when I was 2 seconds up”
“The throttle stuck open”
“Changing gear gives me a blister”
“I had major understeer & oversteer”
“I was jetlagged”
“I was drunk last night, and out until 3am”
“I was trying new lines”
“The gearing was wrong”
And of course, my favorite
"The car lacked balance"
bcr5784 said:
That is arrogance on a grand scale. Like I said my son is a top class racing driver (with lots of race and national championship wins, lap records, ex Toyota F1 etc to prove it) and and I have seen what he does, and yes it's highly impressive (and very butt clenching too).
But do you really think Louis Hamilton or the world karting champion really feel any less for not actually changing gear for themselves? Do you think Marques bemoans the fact that his bike has a dual clutch gearbox, traction and wheelie control. Or do you think they prefer being able to concentrate of the things that actually matter (on a race track) - getting round corners quickly, braking as late as possible, and (these days) preserving their tyres?
This is what Valentino Rossi (he's quite good I believe...) said "Yamaha is working feverishly on its own seamless gearbox. Rider Valentino Rossi explains the advantages: "For me, in one lap it doesn't change a lot ... I mean the lap time. A lot of people speak about two-tenths for a lap—I think it's less than two-tenths. But the big improvement, I think, is in the 20 or 30 laps, because the bike becomes a lot easier to ride, is more stable, more stable in acceleration, but also more stable in braking."
Sir, sir, me please, me, let me answer this sir !But do you really think Louis Hamilton or the world karting champion really feel any less for not actually changing gear for themselves? Do you think Marques bemoans the fact that his bike has a dual clutch gearbox, traction and wheelie control. Or do you think they prefer being able to concentrate of the things that actually matter (on a race track) - getting round corners quickly, braking as late as possible, and (these days) preserving their tyres?
This is what Valentino Rossi (he's quite good I believe...) said "Yamaha is working feverishly on its own seamless gearbox. Rider Valentino Rossi explains the advantages: "For me, in one lap it doesn't change a lot ... I mean the lap time. A lot of people speak about two-tenths for a lap—I think it's less than two-tenths. But the big improvement, I think, is in the 20 or 30 laps, because the bike becomes a lot easier to ride, is more stable, more stable in acceleration, but also more stable in braking."
Make a sentence from the following :
Talking. Not. Argument. Race. Road. Your. Not. You're. Therefore. Cars. Is. Relevant.
My, the view's great (and so much more enjoyable) perched up on this fence
Edited to add.
13 pages and counting, if this is still going strong at Christmas, will there be a truce on the day itself ? And if there is, do we get to meet up and drive each others cars ? I have a rather lovely Daf Variomatic and a 2.7 Sportmatic, does that mean I won't be allowed to drive anyone else's cars ?
Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 30th November 11:29
Why does some one keep saying his son races and has lap records ?
What has this to do with anything regarding PDK vs manual for driving pleasure ?
F1 brought a few aids in a couple of years back, it made the racing so dull they had to change the rules because it was so easy for these guys and dull to watch.
At least we see some over steer and correction now.
even F1 had to limit the tech.
What has this to do with anything regarding PDK vs manual for driving pleasure ?
F1 brought a few aids in a couple of years back, it made the racing so dull they had to change the rules because it was so easy for these guys and dull to watch.
At least we see some over steer and correction now.
even F1 had to limit the tech.
Slippydiff said:
13 pages and counting, if this is still going strong at Christmas, will there be a truce on the day itself ? And if there is, do we get to meet up and drive each others cars ?
I guessed this topic would create a lively debate when I posted it, but didn't expect it to ramble on this long. Edited by Trev450 on Sunday 30th November 14:22
mrdemon said:
Why does some one keep saying his son races and has lap records ?
.
It's only relevance is that those supporting manual gear changing seem to be assuming that those of us who prefer PDK haven't seen a "proper" driver, don't really know what heel and toe gearchanging is all about, and their opinion is therefore so much less relevant. Some of us have, can heel and toe - but choose not to on some of our cars. It is just as relevant asserting that you have lots of experience of PDK boxes..
The relevance of heel and toe and racing is that the technique is intended to make you go faster. If you are not bothered about that you can follow Roadcraft as the police do, and never heel and toe. You have drawn a quite arbitrary line in the sand, which all of the racing fraternaty have already decided to cross, and which the police have always chosen to be the other side of.
Like I say I have no problem with that - so long as you don't try to make the rest of us feel inferior because we choose to take a different view.
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