Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!!

[heebeegeetee]

V8KSN said:

I have offered to take you out in my car and show you what I mean about rev matching when changing gear but you are obviously not interested in changing your view on manual gear changing.

You didn't make it clear whether you were going to show me pdk or manual. Given that I've been changing gears manually since the mid seventies I'm curious to see what you're going to show me what I'm missing out on, or that you're going to show me that you're really accomplished at teaching grandmothers to suck eggs. I am more than happy to find out.

mollytherocker said:

I am afraid your post proves that you (and many other) PDK fans have no idea what a manual gearbox is about. Anyone can learn one in 15 minutes? Hilarious.

You really think its just about dipping the clutch and engaging a gear dont you?

This is why you simply do not understand. And there isnt the space to explain it in text to you here. Somebody needs to show you.

I will give you one point. Some time ago I was on a track day and had a few rides with some what I thought were seasoned track dayers

One guy blew me away with his smooth driving style, balancing the car into the corner, using the gearbox seamlessly with rev matching etc and trail braking to the apex etc etc. I learnt lots in that 30 minutes.

Later that day, I was in a 997 3.8 GT3 RS. The guy had all the gear etc. I have never been so scared in my life. He was all over the place, ramming it into gear on change downs, no rev matching, unsettling the rear of the car, no finesse or car control whatsoever.

I have no doubt that he loves PDK now.

Oh, and dont ask me when and where as these guys are on here....

Edited by mollytherocker on Sunday 30th November 10:59

Have you ever driven a crash box? I have, for about 12 years in the truck I owned, in which you had to double de-clutch on every change.

Look, for my sins I started driving lorries in 1980 and did so for about 25 years onwards. The first trucks I drove were built in the 70s. I was a mechanic in the army in the 70s and worked on and drove pre-selector gearboxes. Can you imagine how many different types of gearboxes I've driven and how many times I've changed gear over the past nigh-on 40 years? For some 10 years or more I owned and drove a truck with a crash gearbox. So, going down hill fully laden, if you didn't double de-clutch and get the revs right on the downchange you were stuck in neutral, downhill in a fully laden truck.

Now, you guys who want to put me in a modern car, with it's lovely syncromeshed gearbox, what is it again you're going to show me?

bcr5784 said:

That is arrogance on a grand scale.

It is unbelievable. Because the manual gearbox is on the way out, we now have people telling us they're utter driving gods on the strength of driving road cars with syncromesh gearboxes all their (presumably short) lives.

If I wasn't here on this thread right now I'd never believe it.

It's absolutely fking ridiculous!

[mrdemon]

"Because the manual gearbox is on the way out"

most manafactures are finding it hard to sell cars that sold well before because they took out the manual option.

MX5 is staying manual
Porsche GT4 to be manual
Polo Gti to offer a manual again in 2015 was DSG only in the last one
Renault Sport cannot sell the Clio 200, normally the best hot hatch you can buy , they are looking at manual again
Jag has just said the F type needs a manual option.
the fastest Hot hatch today the Magane Trophy is manual.
Honda is going to keep the new Civic Type R manual.

I could go on and list loads more cars

Manual is making a come back if anything ;-) they are just move fun and involving to drive and that's what people want to enjoy driving, it's that simple.

Edited by mrdemon on Sunday 30th November 14:23

[heebeegeetee]

mrdemon said:

F1 brought a few aids in a couple of years back, it made the racing so dull they had to change the rules because it was so easy for these guys and dull to watch.

Er no, wrong again. Technology in F1 was making cars ever faster and ever harder to drive due to the g-forces they generated and the cars became faster than suited the circuits. Back in the early 80s drivers were collapsing from the efforts needed to get the most out of their cars. So now year in, year out the tech is limited to keep the speeds manageable.

Similar happened in rallying in a way, with Group B seeing ever faster and faster speeds with drivers struggling to manage - so it was all banned.

So yes, now the cars are said to be easier to drive and 17 year-olds can jump in and drive them, but that's down to the limits placed on the speeds and technology. If tech was given free reign god knows what we'd have now nor what the circuits they'd need to race on would look like.

On the other hand we have the wonderful spectacle of historic racing, with the likes of the Goodwood Revival and Spa 6 hours being absolutely wonderful to see - but we're not driving like that nor are we driving cars like that.

What we are driving are massively over-gripped modern cars which are easy to drive - but some of you guys now believe you're utter driving gods because you've retained the modern, synchromeshed gearboxes.

By all means tell me that you prefer the manual gearbox, but please, ferchrissakes, spare me the utter driving god crap based on driving modern road cars.

[heebeegeetee]

mrdemon said:

"Because the manual gearbox is on the way out"

most manafactures are finding it hard to sell cars that sold well before because they took out the manual option.

MX5 is staying manual
Porsche GT4 to be manual
Polo Gti to offer a manual again in 2015 was DSG only in the last one
Renault Sport cannot sell the Clio 200, normally the best hot hatch you can buy , they are looking at manual again
Jag has just said the F type needs a manual option.
the fastest Hot hatch today the Magane Trophy is manual.
Honda is going to keep the new Civic Type R manual.

I could go on and list loads more cars

Manual is making a come back if anything ;-) they are just move fun and involving to drive and that's what people want to enjoy driving, it's that simple.

Edited by mrdemon on Sunday 30th November 14:23

As I said, all the cars we're discussing are manuals, it's just that some have different gear selection methods and have an auto option.

The stick-and-clutch will always remain I've no doubt. But dear god, it looks like older types such as myself will need to brace ourselves for the utter codswallop that's going to be increasingly spouted by those who insist on keeping the old tech. (The old tech only for gear changing mind - I still don't think we'll see you guys going anywhere near cars that you do indeed actually have to drive).

[heebeegeetee]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

No, I think I pretty much get it. Firstly, I get that we're all different. Secondly, I get that for me some 5% of the time a manual would be much better but for 95% of the time it wouldn't - or some sort of factor like that.

I get that you are far more experienced than me and I respect your knowledge and opinion and would factor that in, along with the knowledge that we're all different.

What I don't get are those now proclaiming to be more of man and an utter driving god to boot because they choose a bit of old tech in their modern, sanitised, over-gripped cars; and I don't get the assumption that anyone professing to think that both methods have something to offer automatically and immediate loses all knowledge of driving and has no knowledge of the 'intricacies' of a manual 'box at all. That bit I don't get.

[mrdemon]

heebeegeetee said:

Er no, wrong again. Technology in F1 was making cars ever faster and ever harder to drive due to the g-forces they generated and the cars became faster than suited the circuits. Back in the early 80s drivers were collapsing from the efforts needed to get the most out of their cars. So now year in, year out the tech is limited to keep the speeds manageable.


By all means tell me that you prefer the manual gearbox, but please, ferchrissakes, spare me the utter driving god crap based on driving modern road cars.

Traction and ABS did not make cars faster and esp not faster to a point drivers passed out lol

it made the cars too easy to drive and dull to watch F1 was having less viewers, so ABS and traction was banned, nothing to do with going faster !!!

I don't think any one is saying they are driving gods are they ? people just enjoy the extra involvement in using all their limbs.

Again not sure what having to double de clutch a 1980 truck has anything to do with it, you are using the same limbs and have the same amount of pedals, it's just one extra clutch press, so why do you make it out to be hardcore I don't know.

Having a syncromesh still makes you use both legs and both arms, you still have to rev match other wise you will lock a rear wheel or do your clutch in early or unbalance the car.

with PDK you switch off half your body, it's dull as fk to drive and easy to go fast with zero involvement.
You click a micro switch, the car does all the rev matching you will need and you can even change mid bend with no issue

syncromesh or not in a manual you cannot change gear mid corner your hands on the wheel for a start, you have to plan ahead, threshold brake to the max to stop tech (ABS) taking over, you then have to heal and toe to keep the car balanced and In a GT3 you might (prob will) have to trail brake a little also.

PDK on the other hand in full auto, you brake, turn in, foot full on throttle as PDK owners normally drive PSM on, then the car drops down the box after the bend and fks off, with you doing nothing but 1 press on the brake and turn in that's it all done.

then you say "BUT WE drive our PDK in MANUAL" woo hoo , so still the same driving bar you brake, you press a micro switch with your thumb, unless you specced 5k worth of PDK sports plus and paddal shift, in which case you still click a switch but pull it.

the cars does every thing for you again but this time because you choose to change down before the corner the cars fks off out the other side, no point changing up as Sports plus does that bit faster and you are out the bend now, so why drive in manual mode ?

SO no reason to ever drive manual mode, bar pre corner to force the PDK to change down for you, many don't though and the car will change down when it feels like, normally after the bend.

It's dull and less involving, if you cannot see that then well, not a lot I can say, bar being rude, I try not to do that on forums ;-)

if you like the PDK because it makes YOU faster than that's ok with me just admit it, but a good geo will make you far far faster than any auto clutch.

BUT I will stereotype and say PDK owners are more like to never turn PSM off, will use ABS, will have a Stock geo and use N spec tyres and in fact will prob also drive in full Auto anyway.

you get the odd few who mod the cars with geo, tyres etc and take them to the limit and have PDK but it's rare.
I know of A R owner and a Spyder owner who can prob out drive me and own PDK cars, but I find these 2 people want to go faster on track and that's maybe to show a GT3 a thing or 2 as both seem to like hassling GT3 owners lol

I am 100% that I could drive on track faster in a PDK car, no question about it, but that's not why I own the 3 manual cars I own.

[bcr5784]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Never double-declutched! You must be a complete driving moron! You clearly know nothing about driving and have never seen someone drive properly or know the true pleasure that can be had from a crash box....

Sound familiar?

[Slippydiff]

mrdemon said:

Traction and ABS did not make cars faster and esp not faster to a point drivers passed out lol

it made the cars too easy to drive and dull to watch F1 was having less viewers, so ABS and traction was banned, nothing to do with going faster !!!

I don't think any one is saying they are driving gods are they ? people just enjoy the extra involvement in using all their limbs.

Again not sure what having to double de clutch a 1980 truck has anything to do with it, you are using the same limbs and have the same amount of pedals, it's just one extra clutch press, so why do you make it out to be hardcore I don't know.

Having a syncromesh still makes you use both legs and both arms, you still have to rev match other wise you will lock a rear wheel or do your clutch in early or unbalance the car.

with PDK you switch off half your body, it's dull as fk to drive and easy to go fast with zero involvement.
You click a micro switch, the car does all the rev matching you will need and you can even change mid bend with no issue

syncromesh or not in a manual you cannot change gear mid corner your hands on the wheel for a start, you have to plan ahead, threshold brake to the max to stop tech (ABS) taking over, you then have to heal and toe to keep the car balanced and In a GT3 you might (prob will) have to trail brake a little also.

PDK on the other hand in full auto, you brake, turn in, foot full on throttle as PDK owners normally drive PSM on, then the car drops down the box after the bend and fks off, with you doing nothing but 1 press on the brake and turn in that's it all done.

then you say "BUT WE drive our PDK in MANUAL" woo hoo , so still the same driving bar you brake, you press a micro switch with your thumb, unless you specced 5k worth of PDK sports plus and paddal shift, in which case you still click a switch but pull it.

the cars does every thing for you again but this time because you choose to change down before the corner the cars fks off out the other side, no point changing up as Sports plus does that bit faster and you are out the bend now, so why drive in manual mode ?

SO no reason to ever drive manual mode, bar pre corner to force the PDK to change down for you, many don't though and the car will change down when it feels like, normally after the bend.

It's dull and less involving, if you cannot see that then well, not a lot I can say, bar being rude, I try not to do that on forums ;-)

if you like the PDK because it makes YOU faster than that's ok with me just admit it, but a good geo will make you far far faster than any auto clutch.

BUT I will stereotype and say PDK owners are more like to never turn PSM off, will use ABS, will have a Stock geo and use N spec tyres and in fact will prob also drive in full Auto anyway.

you get the odd few who mod the cars with geo, tyres etc and take them to the limit and have PDK but it's rare.
I know of A R owner and a Spyder owner who can prob out drive me and own PDK cars, but I find these 2 people want to go faster on track and that's maybe to show a GT3 a thing or 2 as both seem to like hassling GT3 owners lol

I am 100% that I could drive on track faster in a PDK car, no question about it, but that's not why I own the 3 manual cars I own.

Says the man that owned an M3 CSL ........ (or was that another "crap car" car you didn't get..... ?)

Hold on, I thought you were a driving god ?, you've posted on here on numerous occasions that you can outbreak brake ;-) any GT3 driver, on any circuit, this whilst heal heel ;-) and toeing ?

And please, stop constantly banging on about non-standard geo set ups, N rated tyres and PSM, this thread is about PDK V's manuals, not how you set up your car.

P.S The first flappy paddal paddle gearshift utilised in an F1 car was so fitted because John Barnard saw an aerodynamic advantage in having the monocock (Mr D on his own ;-) Did you see what I did there ? monocoque as narrow as possible. The old style H pattern gearlever precluded that, hence flappy paddles became de rigeur.

[bcr5784]

mrdemon said:

SO no reason to ever drive manual mode, bar pre corner to force the PDK to change down for you, many don't though and the car will change down when it feels like, normally after the bend.

Forgetting all the subjective stuff (ie most of it). You are assuming that PDKs often don't obey your instructions - some don't, but the one we are talking about on the Cayman is generally regarded as amongst the very best around. There are rubbish manual changes around too which give no pleasure (Lotus have a job lot of them).

The bottom line is that the objective (on the track) is to get in the right gear at the right time for a corner. A good PDK operated manually simply does it better/faster/smoother than the very best driver. There is nothing forcing F1 cars (and MotoGP) to dual clutch - except the fact that they work better even than the best driver. And, while you wouldn't normally do so, because the upward change unsettles the car less than a manual one would, you can if circumstances require it, change up mid corner.

If you derive pleasure from changing gear - fine - but don't suggest that it's functionally better - because it simply and demonstrably isn't.

On the road with PDK you have the choice to have precise control of which gear you are in or, when driving in traffic (most of the time) let the box take the strain - with manual you have no such option. Seems like, objectively, a no-brainer.

[heebeegeetee]

mrdemon said:

1. Traction and ABS did not make cars faster and esp not faster to a point drivers passed out lol

it made the cars too easy to drive and dull to watch F1 was having less viewers, so ABS and traction was banned, nothing to do with going faster !!!

2. Again not sure what having to double de clutch a 1980 truck has anything to do with it, you are using the same limbs and have the same amount of pedals, it's just one extra clutch press, so why do you make it out to be hardcore I don't know.

3. Having a syncromesh still makes you use both legs and both arms, you still have to rev match other wise you will lock a rear wheel or do your clutch in early or unbalance the car.

4. syncromesh or not in a manual you cannot change gear mid corner your hands on the wheel for a start, you have to plan ahead, threshold brake to the max to stop tech (ABS) taking over, you then have to heal and toe to keep the car balanced and In a GT3 you might (prob will) have to trail brake a little also.

5. It's dull and less involving, if you cannot see that then well, not a lot I can say, bar being rude, I try not to do that on forums ;-)

6. if you like the PDK because it makes YOU faster than that's ok with me just admit it, but a good geo will make you far far faster than any auto clutch.

7. BUT I will stereotype and say PDK owners are more like to never turn PSM off, will use ABS, will have a Stock geo and use N spec tyres and in fact will prob also drive in full Auto anyway.

1. No, but sliding skirts, ground effect and no suspension did. And the viewing figures were tiny then compared to when ABS and TC came along.

2. Double de-clutching down a steep hill in a laden truck means the truck will accelerate as you de-clutch, which makes it harder to judge the revs you need on the double de-clutch and also means you want to brake as well. Trouble is the steering column passes through the floor between the brake and accelerator making heel and toe impossible, so you have a real (and quite urgent need) to press three pedals with two feet. Caught in neutral, you end up braking much harder than you'd like, given that they're drum brakes.

I can also recall going up Corley Bank ( garadient you barely notice in a car) in a 1972 Atkinson Borderer with a Gardner 180, which at 32 tons was so slow that you'd have to work down to first. When changing from second to first the truck by that stage was going so slowly that I'd have just one chance to get into first, and if I failed the truck stopped - in lane 1. It was horrendous at the time, and now here I am, being told by someone who seems to have only ever driven modern cars, telling me how easy it actually was. Honestly, this thread is priceless.

3. No you don't, this is made-up fantasy stuff. You don't have to rev match if you don't want to, the syncromesh does that for you, that's what it is there for. I've never locked a rear wheel and you won't unblance the car unless you doing something really wrong.

4. You don't have to do any of that either. This is fantasy stuff. You can do it if you want and tell yourself a driving god if you want (but you'd be in a race car, picking up trophies if you were, or making a handsome living from doing something you love, ie driving cars).

5. I'll grant, and would worry, that when out on the odd hoon a layer of involvement would be missing, I know that. The issue for me is how often that would happen. The other issue for me personally is that I get pleasure from the technology, enjoying the bloody marvel that dsg/pdk type gearboxes are.

6. How about a better geo AND a much faster, automated manual?

7. Oh dear god.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Sunday 30th November 20:11

[JeffC]

Wow this is like a pantomime with the Chuckle Brothers ! not sure why would anyone want to waste such a fine Sunday morning/afternoon sat debating which box is best and the fact that anyone would want to speaks volumes to me

Step away from the keyboard chaps, get your cars out the garage, fill up with petrol and get out in this freakishly warm weather and enjoy the cars we bought to drive. (obviously those with a manual will have had more enjoyment than us underlings with a Pdk )

(Jeff c just back from a days driving out in the sunshine with Mrs C and just about to open a bottle of wine life is good xx )

[V8KSN]

heebeegeetee said:

You didn't make it clear whether you were going to show me pdk or manual. Given that I've been changing gears manually since the mid seventies I'm curious to see what you're going to show me what I'm missing out on, or that you're going to show me that you're really accomplished at teaching grandmothers to suck eggs. I am more than happy to find out.

I offered to take you out in my manual gearbox car (taking time out of MY day using MY fuel) to show you what was meant by heel and toe gear changing as you had asked in a previous post about rev matching and seem to be confused about it.

Your answer regarding rev matching was because you thought it was 'a fashion thing' That's why I offered to show you what I meant.

[homerdog]

mollytherocker said:

By the way, I hope the above is not patronising

Don't you get it? You, cmoose, MrD et al, come across as exactly that!

"we will never get an answer. You do know that. Its because the question is not understood. Despite our efforts."

"The crux of the issue is if (as a PDK owner) you have never historically used a manual gearbox 'properly' then you will not see the value of it."

"Some people are just into driving more than others"

"The last few PDK owners are all admitting to buying a PDK because they lack the skills to drive a manual."

[heebeegeetee]

V8KSN said:

I offered to take you out in my manual gearbox car (taking time out of MY day using MY fuel) to show you what was meant by heel and toe gear changing as you had asked in a previous post about rev matching and seem to be confused about it.

Your answer regarding rev matching was because you thought it was 'a fashion thing' That's why I offered to show you what I meant.

I don't mind, but I was referring to pdk.

Somebody was asking why I think the latest pdk-type 'boxes blip the throttle on a down change. I think it's got more to do with this more than anything else, imo. http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[mollytherocker]

heebeegeetee said:

V8KSN said:

I have offered to take you out in my car and show you what I mean about rev matching when changing gear but you are obviously not interested in changing your view on manual gear changing.

You didn't make it clear whether you were going to show me pdk or manual. Given that I've been changing gears manually since the mid seventies I'm curious to see what you're going to show me what I'm missing out on, or that you're going to show me that you're really accomplished at teaching grandmothers to suck eggs. I am more than happy to find out.

mollytherocker said:

I am afraid your post proves that you (and many other) PDK fans have no idea what a manual gearbox is about. Anyone can learn one in 15 minutes? Hilarious.

You really think its just about dipping the clutch and engaging a gear dont you?

This is why you simply do not understand. And there isnt the space to explain it in text to you here. Somebody needs to show you.

I will give you one point. Some time ago I was on a track day and had a few rides with some what I thought were seasoned track dayers

One guy blew me away with his smooth driving style, balancing the car into the corner, using the gearbox seamlessly with rev matching etc and trail braking to the apex etc etc. I learnt lots in that 30 minutes.

Later that day, I was in a 997 3.8 GT3 RS. The guy had all the gear etc. I have never been so scared in my life. He was all over the place, ramming it into gear on change downs, no rev matching, unsettling the rear of the car, no finesse or car control whatsoever.

I have no doubt that he loves PDK now.

Oh, and dont ask me when and where as these guys are on here....

Edited by mollytherocker on Sunday 30th November 10:59

Have you ever driven a crash box? I have, for about 12 years in the truck I owned, in which you had to double de-clutch on every change.

Look, for my sins I started driving lorries in 1980 and did so for about 25 years onwards. The first trucks I drove were built in the 70s. I was a mechanic in the army in the 70s and worked on and drove pre-selector gearboxes. Can you imagine how many different types of gearboxes I've driven and how many times I've changed gear over the past nigh-on 40 years? For some 10 years or more I owned and drove a truck with a crash gearbox. So, going down hill fully laden, if you didn't double de-clutch and get the revs right on the downchange you were stuck in neutral, downhill in a fully laden truck.

Now, you guys who want to put me in a modern car, with it's lovely syncromeshed gearbox, what is it again you're going to show me?

bcr5784 said:

That is arrogance on a grand scale.

It is unbelievable. Because the manual gearbox is on the way out, we now have people telling us they're utter driving gods on the strength of driving road cars with syncromesh gearboxes all their (presumably short) lives.

If I wasn't here on this thread right now I'd never believe it.

It's absolutely fking ridiculous!

With regard to your comments about trucks and crash boxes, this is certainly relevant to this subject.

I still have my LGV C&E licence (HGV1) as i started my career as a truck fitter and spent a few years driving in the late 80s and early 90s. The Cummins engined Leyland Roadtrains I drove (amongst many others) actually gave me the basis for the skills I have now, although I didnt realise it at the time. You had to rev match every shift and could change gear without the clutch if you got it perfect. Going up a hill with a full load on and having to change down perfectly, was a proper skill and maybe thats why I am still fascinated with this whole area of vehicle control.

A few years later I heard Alain Prost being interviewed and he was explaining how performance driving was very like driving a truck and it just clicked with me.

With ref to the comments by you and others about cmoose, MrD and me coming across as driving gods, I am afraid that it is very difficult to discuss this subject without being accused of this.

I am not a driving god. Is that ok?

[Klippie]

Interesting you mention rev matching this is the most pleasurable part of driving a manual box, coming down the box and doing this for every gear is pure bliss, also say dropping from 6th to 3rd for a rapid overtake takes a bit of practice to get right you need to know your way round the box.

The perfect example and one of the best ways to learn rev matching is get yourself a motorcycle you need to do this to make the thing go properly...I had a bike before I learned to drive and found this very helpful as changing gears was easy in the car.

[heebeegeetee]

mollytherocker said:

With regard to your comments about trucks and crash boxes, this is certainly relevant to this subject.

I still have my LGV C&E licence (HGV1) as i started my career as a truck fitter and spent a few years driving in the late 80s and early 90s. The Cummins engined Leyland Roadtrains I drove (amongst many others) actually gave me the basis for the skills I have now, although I didnt realise it at the time. You had to rev match every shift and could change gear without the clutch if you got it perfect. Going up a hill with a full load on and having to change down perfectly, was a proper skill and maybe thats why I am still fascinated with this whole area of vehicle control.

A few years later I heard Alain Prost being interviewed and he was explaining how performance driving was very like driving a truck and it just clicked with me.

With ref to the comments by you and others about cmoose, MrD and me coming across as driving gods, I am afraid that it is very difficult to discuss this subject without being accused of this.

I am not a driving god. Is that ok?

The only reason I posted as I did is because I do think that people are vastly overstating the skills required to operate a manual car gearbox, and then it seems that the moment anyone professes that they might see the benefits of pdk-type 'box they're immediately accused of knowing nothing about driving or changing gear etc - as witnessed by this thread.

[V8KSN]

heebeegeetee said:

V8KSN said:

I offered to take you out in my manual gearbox car (taking time out of MY day using MY fuel) to show you what was meant by heel and toe gear changing as you had asked in a previous post about rev matching and seem to be confused about it.

Your answer regarding rev matching was because you thought it was 'a fashion thing' That's why I offered to show you what I meant.

I don't mind, but I was referring to pdk.

Somebody was asking why I think the latest pdk-type 'boxes blip the throttle on a down change. I think it's got more to do with this more than anything else, imo. http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&a...

OK, if you still believe that the PDK gearbox blips the throttle on downshifts because its a 'fashion thing' or because it sounds good then I am not sure what to say.

What I will say is this, I didn't meant to offend any PDK drivers with my posts and if I did then I apologise

[mollytherocker]

heebeegeetee said:

The only reason I posted as I did is because I do think that people are vastly overstating the skills required to operate a manual car gearbox, and then it seems that the moment anyone professes that they might see the benefits of pdk-type 'box they're immediately accused of knowing nothing about driving or changing gear etc - as witnessed by this thread.

There is no doubt that the PDK has certain benefits over a manual box, that is not in dispute.

The whole question revolves around whether these 'benefits' are desirable. What we are talking about is the automation of a number of actions that make many traditional skill sets redundant. Thats progress you may say.

But if you truly enjoy the process of driving, then some of the enjoyment has been removed. The self driving car is not that far away, and if it drives itself better than you can, is that more progress? To some it will be of course, not everybody likes driving.

In terms of me overstating these skills, do you know what they are and why they work? Anybody can drive a manual, its easy. Thats not what I am talking about. Its far more advanced than that.

I have witnessed 100's of drivers first hand as a passenger, and I can honestly say that only a couple could use a manual gearbox correctly around the limit.

[heebeegeetee]

I'm very sorry but these statements are really starting to sound a bit tin-foil to me.

And again, I'm sorry but cars have been all but driving themselves anyway, for years. None more so than the modern cars of today. I agree that the danger of pdk-etc is that of removing a layer of involvement but the the manual gearbox has long been so easy to use that it really isn't a big deal imo.

The mechanisms within the synchromesh gearbox remove the need for skill when gearchanging. The 'box does everything for you apart from the actual selection itself. Whether you've got the rev-matching right or not, the 'box (and clutch) will take care of it so it doesn't matter. That's why personally I find a manual box a little frustrating because I know that a computer can do it better.

It's a bit like ABS - a computer can do it better, and in any case a human can't brake all four wheels differently anyway, so why worry whether ABS is better or not - just accept that it is.