Proof that a manual is quicker than a PDK!!
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
I'm very sorry but these statements are really starting to sound a bit tin-foil to me.
And again, I'm sorry but cars have been all but driving themselves anyway, for years. None more so than the modern cars of today. I agree that the danger of pdk-etc is that of removing a layer of involvement but the the manual gearbox has long been so easy to use that it really isn't a big deal imo.
The mechanisms within the synchromesh gearbox remove the need for skill when gearchanging. The 'box does everything for you apart from the actual selection itself. Whether you've got the rev-matching right or not, the 'box (and clutch) will take care of it so it doesn't matter. That's why personally I find a manual box a little frustrating because I know that a computer can do it better.
It's a bit like ABS - a computer can do it better, and in any case a human can't brake all four wheels differently anyway, so why worry whether ABS is better or not - just accept that it is.
Once again, I afraid that it is evident that you are not aware of what I am talking about.And again, I'm sorry but cars have been all but driving themselves anyway, for years. None more so than the modern cars of today. I agree that the danger of pdk-etc is that of removing a layer of involvement but the the manual gearbox has long been so easy to use that it really isn't a big deal imo.
The mechanisms within the synchromesh gearbox remove the need for skill when gearchanging. The 'box does everything for you apart from the actual selection itself. Whether you've got the rev-matching right or not, the 'box (and clutch) will take care of it so it doesn't matter. That's why personally I find a manual box a little frustrating because I know that a computer can do it better.
It's a bit like ABS - a computer can do it better, and in any case a human can't brake all four wheels differently anyway, so why worry whether ABS is better or not - just accept that it is.
You then go on to repeat that computers are better at these things than humans and that we should accept it.
I am more than happy for you to accept it. It sounds right for you.
mollytherocker said:
See, now I am thinking you are actually winding us all up with your fake ignorance. Maybe we have all fallen for it?
At the bottom of the previous page you stated something about using these boxes 'at the limit'. What do you mean 'at the limit'? Have we come full circle back around to 'because race car'?When I'm driving my road car on the roads what the hell does 'at the limit' have to do with anything? Are we talking about racing road cars now, or about track days involving lardy cars being driven by people who won't compete?
I am not going to choose a road car based on 'the limit', whatever that 'limit' might be.
mrdemon said:
"Because the manual gearbox is on the way out"
most manafactures are finding it hard to sell cars that sold well before because they took out the manual option.
MX5 is staying manual
Porsche GT4 to be manual
Polo Gti to offer a manual again in 2015 was DSG only in the last one
Renault Sport cannot sell the Clio 200, normally the best hot hatch you can buy , they are looking at manual again
Jag has just said the F type needs a manual option.
the fastest Hot hatch today the Magane Trophy is manual.
Honda is going to keep the new Civic Type R manual.
I could go on and list loads more cars
Manual is making a come back if anything ;-) they are just move fun and involving to drive and that's what people want to enjoy driving, it's that simple.
You have cheered me up with this post! I hope you are right.most manafactures are finding it hard to sell cars that sold well before because they took out the manual option.
MX5 is staying manual
Porsche GT4 to be manual
Polo Gti to offer a manual again in 2015 was DSG only in the last one
Renault Sport cannot sell the Clio 200, normally the best hot hatch you can buy , they are looking at manual again
Jag has just said the F type needs a manual option.
the fastest Hot hatch today the Magane Trophy is manual.
Honda is going to keep the new Civic Type R manual.
I could go on and list loads more cars
Manual is making a come back if anything ;-) they are just move fun and involving to drive and that's what people want to enjoy driving, it's that simple.
Edited by mrdemon on Sunday 30th November 14:23
heebeegeetee said:
At the bottom of the previous page you stated something about using these boxes 'at the limit'. What do you mean 'at the limit'? Have we come full circle back around to 'because race car'?
When I'm driving my road car on the roads what the hell does 'at the limit' have to do with anything? Are we talking about racing road cars now, or about track days involving lardy cars being driven by people who won't compete?
I am not going to choose a road car based on 'the limit', whatever that 'limit' might be.
And this from a guy who argues that the PDK is quicker and so is better! You cant have it every way! Make your mind up what your argument is!When I'm driving my road car on the roads what the hell does 'at the limit' have to do with anything? Are we talking about racing road cars now, or about track days involving lardy cars being driven by people who won't compete?
I am not going to choose a road car based on 'the limit', whatever that 'limit' might be.
mollytherocker said:
And this from a guy who argues that the PDK is quicker and so is better! You cant have it every way! Make your mind up what your argument is!
I'm struggling to see how a gearbox can be better by being slower, but this has got nothing to do with whatever speed the car may be travelling at.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes. Its so difficult to sum it up in a few paragraphs. People have written 500 page books on this subject, its so big.And then PDK comes along and makes it all redundant. Did you see the video of Walter Rohrl driving the 991 GT3 and being absolutely gobsmacked at its technical competence? He just shrugged his shoulders and said, 'what can I do?'
Sums it up for me.
manual Spyder
http://youtu.be/0vNeLjB9IXA?list=UUL-Rm-7D8xHVNA8A...
991 gt3
how ever great and fast this GT3 is prob 5 to 10 seconds a lap faster I know which one I want to be in.
The GT3 just looks dull and very easy
http://youtu.be/OijhOQhonsI
PS I do think the PDK guys are winding you guys up, because no one is that stuipid.
http://youtu.be/0vNeLjB9IXA?list=UUL-Rm-7D8xHVNA8A...
991 gt3
how ever great and fast this GT3 is prob 5 to 10 seconds a lap faster I know which one I want to be in.
The GT3 just looks dull and very easy
http://youtu.be/OijhOQhonsI
PS I do think the PDK guys are winding you guys up, because no one is that stuipid.
Edited by mrdemon on Monday 1st December 09:16
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think you have to accept that there are plenty of people like me who have spent a great deal of their life at racetracks, in and out of cars, karts, analysing data logs, looking for fractions of a second here or there, with top class drivers and on the road have driven lots of types of manual and auto boxes in cars and bikes who STILL choose PDK.It is just personal preference thing - there is no right or wrong (unless you are actually racing)
bcr5784 said:
It is just personal preference thing - there is no right or wrong
Exactly right! The frustration for me are the posters who claim to have learnt all there is to know about manual gear changing but demonstrably have no clue what heel and toe gear changing is all about. Further more, its their refusal to believe there is anything more to learn that really grates with me.Have been following this thread with interest. I have gone from a manual 987 Boxster to a 987 manual Cayman to a new 981 PDK Cayman.
Had the new car three months now and would comment as follows:
For the first few weeks I thought I had made a mistake with opting for PDK. I have been driving for nearly fifty years and always like to feel connected to the car, if that makes sense.
Initially I felt that even in manual mode the PDK left me feeling a little disconnected and less involved.
I then did the Porsche experience at Silverstone. The instructor suggested that if I did not get on with PDK I was probably using it wrongly. After a few laps I certainly felt more at home with it. Using manual mode and paddles seemed to make the car more alive.
Now three months into ownership my thoughts are that both systems have their merits. If I was asked to choose again my logic and experience would go like this.
I currently drive about 20.000 miles per year. My Cayman is my daily driver used for business in all sorts of conditions. Lots of motorway and a fair amount of local B roads.So, in these circumstances I would go PDK.
If the car was a week end or second car then manual for sure.
If a mixture of the above say, 12,000 miles per year, think I would have to spin a coin!
So, I have a foot in both camps. I can see the benefit of both systems. I think it depends on what the car will mainly be used for.
Not sure that helps anyone but just me experience so far.
Had the new car three months now and would comment as follows:
For the first few weeks I thought I had made a mistake with opting for PDK. I have been driving for nearly fifty years and always like to feel connected to the car, if that makes sense.
Initially I felt that even in manual mode the PDK left me feeling a little disconnected and less involved.
I then did the Porsche experience at Silverstone. The instructor suggested that if I did not get on with PDK I was probably using it wrongly. After a few laps I certainly felt more at home with it. Using manual mode and paddles seemed to make the car more alive.
Now three months into ownership my thoughts are that both systems have their merits. If I was asked to choose again my logic and experience would go like this.
I currently drive about 20.000 miles per year. My Cayman is my daily driver used for business in all sorts of conditions. Lots of motorway and a fair amount of local B roads.So, in these circumstances I would go PDK.
If the car was a week end or second car then manual for sure.
If a mixture of the above say, 12,000 miles per year, think I would have to spin a coin!
So, I have a foot in both camps. I can see the benefit of both systems. I think it depends on what the car will mainly be used for.
Not sure that helps anyone but just me experience so far.
mrdemon said:
what car do you drive, and why did you pick it over lets say a BMW330D ?
And what geo and tyres are on your current car ?
I trust that is intended to be an insult - and it's just the sort of silly remark I expect from you.And what geo and tyres are on your current car ?
I drive a Cayman S with PASM on Zeros. I have owned a 330D with sport suspension - much overrated understeered like crazy round Thruxton. Have also owned and raced a Caterham, and owned a couple of Loti, not to mention two Subarus and lots of hot hatches.
So can you actually accept there are people out there who actually have as much (more - I suspect I'm quite a bit older?) experience than you who happen to, quite reasonably, take a different view.
Now what races and championships have you won, to justify your arrogance?
V8KSN said:
bcr5784 said:
It is just personal preference thing - there is no right or wrong
Exactly right! The frustration for me are the posters who claim to have learnt all there is to know about manual gear changing but demonstrably have no clue what heel and toe gear changing is all about. Further more, its their refusal to believe there is anything more to learn that really grates with me.V8KSN no point getting annoyed if people don't want to learn, it's the same in all things some people are happy to just to be able to do something others want to constantly try to do it better.
It's obviously complete nonsense to say that changing gear manually is ALWAYS easy - most of the time in road driving, it is very easy to change gear smoothly, but it is nothing like easy when you are braking hard into a corner and trying to slot into 2nd at 4500 rpm. I think that it was what was meant by "at the limit".
A manual is more fun all of the time in a spirited drive, and it is much harder for a few corners on any such drive. For example, I drove my wife's 320i touring (not actually a bad steer at all, surprisingly) up fish hill with 3 people in it this weekend. You need the top of 2nd and the middle of 3rd to drive that hill fastish with that amount of weight (1700kg plus 3 people) and that amount of power (about 180bhp). I had to make 3 downchanges into 2nd, and I got one perfect, one OK and one crap. In my car (987.2 PDK), it is impossible to (a) get a change as good as my perfect one (and certainly not as satisfying) and (b) get a change as bad as the other two!
I would choose a manual car every day of the week for that kind of driving, despite (/because of) the fact that it would definitely slow me down and make me cock up a few changes.
A lot of people both love manual cars and drive a PDK. I would rather have a manual overall, but only just, because a manual is more fun 50% of the time and a bit irritating 50% of the time (for the driving that I do).
A manual is more fun all of the time in a spirited drive, and it is much harder for a few corners on any such drive. For example, I drove my wife's 320i touring (not actually a bad steer at all, surprisingly) up fish hill with 3 people in it this weekend. You need the top of 2nd and the middle of 3rd to drive that hill fastish with that amount of weight (1700kg plus 3 people) and that amount of power (about 180bhp). I had to make 3 downchanges into 2nd, and I got one perfect, one OK and one crap. In my car (987.2 PDK), it is impossible to (a) get a change as good as my perfect one (and certainly not as satisfying) and (b) get a change as bad as the other two!
I would choose a manual car every day of the week for that kind of driving, despite (/because of) the fact that it would definitely slow me down and make me cock up a few changes.
A lot of people both love manual cars and drive a PDK. I would rather have a manual overall, but only just, because a manual is more fun 50% of the time and a bit irritating 50% of the time (for the driving that I do).
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