GT4 or modded Cayman R

[J-P]

PR36 said:

J-P said:

PR36, you need to go and see them. As I alluded to in my earlier post, they can do pretty much anything, supercharge the engine increase to 3.9l, dry sump the engine, add lightweight body parts, build full aero kit, install a full cage and seam weld if required. The world's your oyster, you can have whatever you want. The attraction for me is that unlike most specialists, they have chosen to use the Cayman as their main development platform. Yes they do loads of stuff for 911s, but they've set out their stall as a Cayman modifier and they have plenty of customers racing caymans to test their parts on. The quality of some of the parts that they have fabricated is beyond reproach. I was very impressed with their professionalism. Dom knows what he's doing, he's totally confident of his skills and that you'd be hard pressed to try his car and not like it. IMHO, he's right, his development car is exceptionally good to drive, just don't get the race cats!

Fair enough, totally get what you are saying. In fact i half suspected the issue is not what they can or can't do but actually they just haven't presented it in the mag and on the site in the best way. To me its common sense that you would run rollover protection if you have fixed buckets and harnesses otherwise its your bonce that becomes the roll bar. As for the oiling mods, svp sell a number of mods on their site, scavenge pump and sump etc so i strongly 'suspect' their race cars do in fact have this in them but their seems no mention of it in the car package they offer. In fact if you go on the site it isnt clear whether the list of parts under the 'cayman svp package' is everything you are getting or just a summary. Considering its £12k for the package i would like to see the whole list if I'm going to be forking out that much dough!

It's a very good point PR36, which is why I think it's worth going to see them. What SVP is saying is basically, here's an off the shelf package, which we can do for you and it will cost £12k all in. However, if you went to see them and said I want dry sump, 30hp, rose jointed suspension, GT3 MC, cage, harness bar and harnesses, cup cables and some RSS bits, then that's exactly what you'd get. You want ohlins? They'll fit those too if you want but they'll do and price exactly what you want. The advantage of their rolling test bed, is that you can get a sense of whether by and large they know what you'd want from the car and I have to say it's a good marketing tool.

[J-P]

fioran0 said:

Trev450 said:

Yes its great to see that the Cayman is starting to be considered as a real contender and as a result, ongoing development is gaining in pace.

Indeed, or at least that it can be gotten out there and done something with.
In the context of this thread what is of interest also is the 997 GTS that won the GS class. That class is similar to GT4 in terms of the cars (there were GT4 class cars running in GS yesterday). It will be interesting to see how close the upcoming Cayman GT4 is on paper then to the performance levels of a 997 GTS once the final details of the road variant are released.

Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 24th January 11:00

Yes I'm quite keen to understand that too! I'm somewhat comforted that the recent commentary by Hatz suggests that the GT4 is a significant step up from the R. And I have to say I love the way the GT4 looks in pics.

[J-P]

So Scuderia Systems reckons the full capristo exhaust and ECU map increases power by about 45bhp. That's a pretty epic gain!

[J-P]

PR36 said:

J-P said:

So Scuderia Systems reckons the full capristo exhaust and ECU map increases power by about 45bhp. That's a pretty epic gain!

If true…!

Might give it a go. Maybe to a before and after dyno. How much is a dyno measurement these days? Is it Surrey rolling roads that does PH members a deal?

[J-P]

PR36 said:

J-P said:

PR36 said:

J-P said:

So Scuderia Systems reckons the full capristo exhaust and ECU map increases power by about 45bhp. That's a pretty epic gain!

If true…!

Might give it a go. Maybe to a before and after dyno. How much is a dyno measurement these days? Is it Surrey rolling roads that does PH members a deal?

JP i have read up a ton on 987 exhaust mods including for the cayman r and there are a lot of claims out there which 'usually' all end up being shot down in flames when someone buys said exhaust then dynos it. What then happens is the manufacturer or dealer joins the forum to bamboozle everyone with an avalanche of technojargon to do with differing brands of dynos, differing air temp humidity etc etc and how the dyno runs were spurious etc. If i were you i would do some searches on the planet 9 forum and there will be a wealth of interesting material for you, they even have a section specifically for dyno runs. I would also add that whilst MrD or GT4Owner gets a lot of flak he has actually made some valid comments re improving the R which shouldn't be ignored. This thread may prove interesting if you haven't seen it before:

http://www.planet-9.com/porsche-dyno-charts/96561-...

Yes it's a fair point! Thanks, I'll look up the thread - cheers

[J-P]

fioran0 said:

Since I said I would post up on engines, and the post by J-P sort of opened that door again...

This will really be a two part post. I will get round to thoughts later as it relates to this thread and to the GT4 but for starters; and as a way to frame what will hopefully follow I wanted to put this in here.

Some years ago, I built out an early M96 engine for myself with the simple enough objective of seeing just what it could be made to do.
The engine was one of those times when there is no limit placed on a project. There were no end use limitations and no restrictions on what could be done. One simply ran with it to see how high the bar could be put.
I am not going to pile through it all in detail as I have no desire to step on anyones toes with this. It was a one time deal dabbling with an M96 that I won’t be repeating and in some ways stands as my dirty little secret. The point of this post also isn’t really about the engine in the end, the engine is simply a mechanism to put across one guys opinion (and its nothing more than that) in the wider context of the GT4 and this thread.

The engine itself though was certainly something as M9X units go. There were significant components used that were designed and manufactured purely (or for the first time) for this engine; unique work done with parts and every single thing done that could be applied. The engine was also worked on with respect to making it as bullet proof as possible. It got several changes that were done to address what were considered areas of question including oiling system changes. Anything that could be lightened or improved was and the pile of original internals and components sitting ready for scrap once it was completed was jaw dropping. It was also built with an ethos that goes with any race motor. There was no compromise left in there to dull it down in any way and no compromise with respect to cost over reliability. It was an M9X engine fully let rip and fully capable.
In the end the engine stood at near enough 4L capacity, completely NA and the cost to build it was sobering. It made absolutely no sense in any measure at all.
Below is where the numbers ended up. Those are uncorrected, raw dyno numbers. Don’t get too crazy about the absolute numbers, a dyno is what it is in the end but its fair enough to say that it was doing more than it originally did.

Very interesting Neil. Would you mind saying what was done? I'm erring very much on the side of modding the R and getting exactly what I want. That capristo exhaust sounds awesome even if it doesn't deliver 45bhp gains with a map. The other thing I was going to ask you, is. Do you think it's worth getting a deeper oil pan? Or getting the engine dry-sumped? I'm likely to buy stickier rubber and don't want to suffer oil starvation issues.

[J-P]

Great post, Neil. Couldn't agree more.

PR36 - it's my intention that any mod I do is reversible. Don't want to f the car up!

[J-P]

Harris_I said:

That's what we all say until the day you stare at a hole in the roof and the drill in your hand...

Yes I can see that. I'm hoping I just don't f it up!

[J-P]

I wouldn't do this for a while as the wheel / tyre combo I want is mega bucks but I'm thinking that a set of OZ superforgiatas would really finish it off as well as weigh significantly less than the OEM wheels.

The questions I have though, is what are offsets? Does it matter? Would getting significantly lighter wheels mean doing full geo to get the best from them?

Thanks All.

[J-P]

PorscheGT4 said:

J-P said:

I wouldn't do this for a while as the wheel / tyre combo I want is mega bucks but I'm thinking that a set of OZ superforgiatas would really finish it off as well as weigh significantly less than the OEM wheels.

The questions I have though, is what are offsets? Does it matter? Would getting significantly lighter wheels mean doing full geo to get the best from them?

Thanks All.

You need a full geo any way by the sound of things how you feel about your R, and no point having a geo until you fit some adjustable LCA and some solid toe links.

You keep looking at 10k shocks and 5k wheels, but have not done the basics yet !

The adjustable lower control arms not only allows you to dial in some front neg camber, you get more steering feel and a much wider front track and a lower front end so a better rake on the car.

Spend £2k get the car set up and then take it from there, you may find you don't want shocks and wheels and the money is better spent on a 6 pot caliper change out.

Will you please read my post. You have no idea what I a,pm or am not going to do so please stop making spurious assumptions on what "basics" I have or haven't done or what order I'll be doing mods.

Just in case you are hard of reading the very first line says I wouldn't do this for a while. I'd have thought that should have made absolutely clear that it's not top of my list of priorities and that I'm asking a simple question about something of which I have no knowledge. You've already made clear what you think I should do. Thank you for that, I don't need you to keep repeating it.

Edited by J-P on Saturday 31st January 15:39

[J-P]

Trev450 said:

J-P said:

The questions I have though, is what are offsets? Does it matter? Would getting significantly lighter wheels mean doing full geo to get the best from them?

Thanks All.

Fitting wheels with different offsets and/or weights to OE will not affect the geo in any way.

Thanks Trev. That's what I was looking for

[J-P]

I've found that I really notice the difference in unsprung mass. The difference between PCCB and steelies on the 911s I drove back to back was noticeable more from a handling perspective than actual braking force to me.

As Slippy said, I noticed this most on responsiveness and turn in but also ride quality.

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yes I'd agree with that and (sadly) I think I'm one of those that couldnt cope with the look of the R on 17" wheels. In any case I doubt that the 17" wheels are lighter than those 19" OZ wheels, they're around 8kg or something! Stupidly light!

[J-P]

Slippydiff said:

J-P said:

I've found that I really notice the difference in unsprung mass. The difference between PCCB and steelies on the 911s I drove back to back was noticeable more from a handling perspective than actual braking force to me.

I suspect that plenty won't spec PCCB over steels's because they can't see any worthwhile value in them over and above the perceived performance benefits (which in reality are negligible). Whereas in reality the reduction in unsprung weight is just as great, if not moreso impressive (or certainly was on the 996 GT cars) The unfortunate thing being that those who have specced PCCBs are very unlikely to be aware that something as simple as a tyre change could nullify their weight reduction benefits........... It'd be interesting to see the differential in weights between the correctly sized N rated front 991 Pirellis, Continentals, Bridgestones and Michelin tyres......

Yes that's a very good point (and BCRB's above) I really like PCCB and if I was never going near a track, I'd have been tempted by them but they're simply too expensive for hard use.

[J-P]

OK - I've made my decision and my god it was a tough one but I'm going to mod the R. I've given up my no.1 slot at OPC for the GT4.

I know the GT4 will be an awesome car but I just can't justify the swap. Also, I'll be able to do more track days and I think the R with a few mods would be utterly epic and finally it allows us to be a 3 car household, which is very appealing. And Mrs will allow me to get a 991 GTS (funds depending, so that should ease the pain bit!)

I've done a fair amount of research, know the cost of all the mods I want done and I'm looking forward to seeing the end result. I also can't escape the fact that the CR's spec is exactly what I want in a car. And I think the GT4's engine choice was a bit of a let-down.

So watch this space in March and I'll keep you all updated on what I've had done and my view of how it's impacted the drive of the CR. I'll be keeping all original parts, so if there's anything I don't like, I can revert to std.

The next few months/years should be a lot of fun!

[J-P]

stefan1 said:

J-P said:

OK - I've made my decision and my god it was a tough one but I'm going to mod the R. I've given up my no.1 slot at OPC for the GT4.

I know the GT4 will be an awesome car but I just can't justify the swap. Also, I'll be able to do more track days and I think the R with a few mods would be utterly epic and finally it allows us to be a 3 car household, which is very appealing. And Mrs will allow me to get a 991 GTS (funds depending, so that should ease the pain bit!)

I've done a fair amount of research, know the cost of all the mods I want done and I'm looking forward to seeing the end result. I also can't escape the fact that the CR's spec is exactly what I want in a car. And I think the GT4's engine choice was a bit of a let-down.

So watch this space in March and I'll keep you all updated on what I've had done and my view of how it's impacted the drive of the CR. I'll be keeping all original parts, so if there's anything I don't like, I can revert to std.

The next few months/years should be a lot of fun!

I have decided to do the same rather than order a GT4. The CR comes out of warranty this March, and so I plan to ask those wizards at Manthey Racing to work on freeing up some engine performance, sorting the brakes (mine are steel and very weak), KW suspension set up and hopefully some harnesses. I think it will be a simply lovely track tool to go alongside the 996 RS.

Look forward to seeing your updates!

Cool! Let me know what Manthey say they can do. The biggest power gain mod is the 200cell cats, so I have been told, but it would be good to know what Manthey recommend.

[J-P]

Slippydiff said:

stefan1 said:

Currently they are rebuilding my old 1989 Club Sport - this is a shot of the engine bay (post full rebuild) they sent me this afternoon.

Not bad 9.5/10.



Manthey have tinkered with the Cayman previously, the results were rather good too .....

Yes I'd seen that, Slippy. The car looks amazing!

[J-P]

Beedub said:

OP, are you on your way to modding your R???

Are you regretting the decision since we've seen more details on the GT4???


This thread particularly interested me tbh as I've done a similar thing albeit on a different platform.

Hi Beedub - haven't started the work yet but will book the initial items in the next couple of weeks.

No I don't regret not getting a GT4 - I'm sure it's an epic car but I doubt it's steering is better than the R and the cost to change is very, very high for the spec I'd want. Would rather spend more money on a GT4 RS. And I really like the R, it's a very well-judged but of kit for road and occasional track use.

[J-P]

So the first couple of bits have been booked in - GT3MC and remap (may get air filter upgrade too). I'll try those for the next few months and then think about what to do next.

[J-P]

Car went in yesterday. Will pick up a week on Tuesday, looking forward to it!