Do I need to replace both front tyres due to a puncture?
Discussion
RacerMike said:
At the end of the day, especially on a Porsche, what on earth is the point in fitting non N rated tyres? !
Simple, I only run Pilot Super sports, they are better than any N spec tyre for a Cayman, it's that simple.why buy a £70k car and fit s
t tyres, when you can fit Pilot Super sports ?PorscheGT4 said:
Simple, I only run Pilot Super sports, they are better than any N spec tyre for a Cayman, it's that simple.
why buy a £70k car and fit st tyres, when you can fit Pilot Super sports ?
I thought you were only running Dunlop Sport Race Maxx Ultimate Speed - special imported "take the chequered flag" editions - or something and you thought the Super Sports were guff?why buy a £70k car and fit s
t tyres, when you can fit Pilot Super sports ?Is there an update on rubber we should know?
Orangecurry said:
Because there is a wider choice of more modern tyres.
....that won't have the original attributes designed to work with the car! If you want a trackday tyre, go for it, but if you want to maintain the original chassis balance, ride comfort, turn in response, wear, longitudinal grip, water clearance, slip behavior on high Mu, slip behavior on medium Mu, heat resistance, steering feel, braking feel, traction control performance, ABS performance, Stability Control performance, PASM response, fuel economy etc. etc. then you have to get the N rated tyre as specced for the car.There's a huge amount of work that goes in to choosing a tyre spec. The submission process alone for a tyre from a manufacturer takes months just for one surface. And the difference between one submission and the next can mean one (quite literally) falls apart after 10mins and the other lasts indefinitely.
Orangecurry said:
And now you've shot yourself in the foot.
How so? I'm not sure I follow?Although I'm not a tyre tester, I do regularly test on the different tyre submissions as the job role I do is linked closely to the tyre performance. I have also done a blind test for Avon Motorsport of 3 different tyre constructions for the CR500 (Caterham fitment). Outwardly, they appeared identical, but the difference between the 3 constructions was night and day. Not just in feel, but also lap time, and wear.
I'm not going to discuss any further, but, despite you perhaps not being able to feel any difference, I can 100% tell you, based on the work I do and on the knowledge I have working in the industry, N rated tyres are different. Full Stop.
fioran0 said:
I thought you were only running Dunlop Sport Race Maxx Ultimate Speed - special imported "take the chequered flag" editions - or something and you thought the Super Sports were guff?
Is there an update on rubber we should know?
I have used 4 sets of SS 1st on release day on my TTRS then on my M3 and now on my R from day 1, best road tyre available.Is there an update on rubber we should know?
My Spyder has the race maxx, but I am going for CUP 2's this year on that, I found the Race maxx to have a small heat window, hoping the CUP 2's will be better.
RacerMike said:
....that won't have the original attributes designed to work with the car! If you want a trackday tyre, go for it, but if you want to maintain the original chassis balance, ride comfort, turn in response, wear, longitudinal grip, water clearance, slip behavior on high Mu, slip behavior on medium Mu, heat resistance, steering feel, braking feel, traction control performance, ABS performance, Stability Control performance, PASM response, fuel economy etc. etc. then you have to get the N rated tyre as specced for the car.
.
SS out classes any N spec tyre in all those area's ;-).
RacerMike said:
Orangecurry said:
Because there is a wider choice of more modern tyres.
....that won't have the original attributes designed to work with the car! If you want a trackday tyre, go for it, but if you want to maintain the original chassis balance, ride comfort, turn in response, wear, longitudinal grip, water clearance, slip behavior on high Mu, slip behavior on medium Mu, heat resistance, steering feel, braking feel, traction control performance, ABS performance, Stability Control performance, PASM response, fuel economy etc. etc. then you have to get the N rated tyre as specced for the car.There's a huge amount of work that goes in to choosing a tyre spec. The submission process alone for a tyre from a manufacturer takes months just for one surface. And the difference between one submission and the next can mean one (quite literally) falls apart after 10mins and the other lasts indefinitely.
All of the technical points in what you say is obviously 'true', but this argument falls apart because the same tyre is specced for the rear of a 964 turbo, 993, 996.1, 996.2, 986.1 and 986.2 and probably a few others.
There is no PASM on the air-cooled cars.
A boxster is a mid-engined car, which weighs and 'handles' very differently from a rear-engined 996 - you tell me how critical the tyre-design is for both, and yet somehow, in all the random factors in the universe, wow look at that, the same critically-designed tyre works ideally on both cars.
Then add in the fact that most cars are not on factory suspension settings, or indeed factory suspension.
EFClarity
Edited by Orangecurry on Tuesday 24th March 11:57
front CGT tyres same N spec as rear Cayman tyre lol it's a joke
the Man from Michelin posted here and would NOT give any direct answers, which proves a point N spec is a joke.
Every major Super car has SS tyres these days, every ring record is on SS or CUP'2's
fastest car on the earth is on SS
you telling me a N spec Bridgestone is better lol ?
Porsche N spec line up is pants (bar GT cars on CUP 2's), old Bridgestone or nasty Pirelli, only tyre which is any good is the PS2 and that is a 10 year old design, yes a great tyre but not a SS.
the Man from Michelin posted here and would NOT give any direct answers, which proves a point N spec is a joke.
Every major Super car has SS tyres these days, every ring record is on SS or CUP'2's
fastest car on the earth is on SS
you telling me a N spec Bridgestone is better lol ?
Porsche N spec line up is pants (bar GT cars on CUP 2's), old Bridgestone or nasty Pirelli, only tyre which is any good is the PS2 and that is a 10 year old design, yes a great tyre but not a SS.
RacerMike said:
Orangecurry said:
And now you've shot yourself in the foot.
How so? I'm not sure I follow?It isn't - full stop.
RacerMike said:
I'm not going to discuss any further, but, despite you perhaps not being able to feel any difference, I can 100% tell you, based on the work I do and on the knowledge I have working in the industry, N rated tyres are different. Full Stop.
I'm sure that some N-rated tyres may have different compounds and construction. But until Porsche are prepared to publish those functional and constructional differences, we can't make an informed decision.I have several sets of both N-rated and non-N on my wheelsets, and I can tell you they are all different, and each set is better than the others in different circumstances.
Like every tyre.
RacerMike said:
At the end of the day, especially on a Porsche, what on earth is the point in fitting non N rated tyres?
When they change the compound so it wears out in half the time?Michelins on then rear of my cayman s over 90k miles:
n1's lasted 12-14k
n2's lasted 12-14k
n3's lasted 6-7k
non n's lasted 12-14k
no change in my driving route or MPG throughout and no bl00dy difference in how the car drove. N rated tyres: the tyre equivalent of The Wizard of Oz.
ilduce said:
RacerMike said:
Orangecurry said:
Sorry but this is simply not true. Porsche and the tyre manufactures refuse to provide ANY information on functional or constructional differences between N-rated and non-N.
Porsche may refuse to provide information, but working in an aspect of vehicle dynamics for an OEM and having had experience of both OEM spec and non OEM spec tyres of the same brand/model, I can guarantee you that there is a difference. It's not a conspiracy.I put non MO (Merc only) tyres on the rear of an SLK and it was difficult driving it without the traction light flashing.
On the other hand I fitted non N to a Cayman and the only difference was that they didn't wear out in 6k miles like the previous set of PS2's.
Summing up: If Porsche said it was day, I'd still pop outside to check.
My car didn't come with MO tyres from new - no manufacturer makes both front and rear sizes in MO versions.
Ultimately, you can theorize all you want, but I'm telling you facts based on what I know having worked in an area of vehicle dynamics for an OEM. Whatever you wish to base your conjecture on, the fact of the matter is, an N marked tyre is different to a non N marked tyre. The reason the guy from Michelin wouldn't tell you specifics will be quite obviously down to avoiding saying anything which may get him fired. Remember that there's a huge amount of competition between tyre companies, so if he was to give away what they'd changed to achieve certain attributes on a Porsche, he would more than likely no longer be working for Michelin. Or any other tyre company for that matter.
I'm not suggesting it's dangerous to fit a non N marked tyre, and it's a free market, so you are absolutely entitled to fit an non OEM spec tyre to your car (I've done it on my cars in the past too). If you want to do trackdays, of course you should fit a SS or C2 or similar. You'll loose some aspect of the original designed performance though. Which is what I'm saying. In an extreme case, fitting a slick would give you excellent dry grip, however, you'd probably lunch your engine from oil surge, and/or crash the moment you got any standing water. And they'd be as uncomfortable as anything on the road as compliance for ride is of zero importance on a race tyre.
What I've been saying all along is: if you want your car to have identical handling/ride/nvh/steering feel to the day it came off the production line, get the OEM tyre (and that means N1 where it came off the line on N1s. Not N2s or N3s). If you don't care about that, then that's fine. However, there is a difference in performance whether you care to believe it or not, and ultimately, that's the point under discussion. As I said before, if you care so much about an old tyre (which would still arguable perform better than a Ling Long) then buying an OEM spec one should also be high on your list of priorities. If you don't have the ability to tell the difference between an OEM or an off the shelf tyre, you probably won't be able to tell the difference between age....
I'm not suggesting it's dangerous to fit a non N marked tyre, and it's a free market, so you are absolutely entitled to fit an non OEM spec tyre to your car (I've done it on my cars in the past too). If you want to do trackdays, of course you should fit a SS or C2 or similar. You'll loose some aspect of the original designed performance though. Which is what I'm saying. In an extreme case, fitting a slick would give you excellent dry grip, however, you'd probably lunch your engine from oil surge, and/or crash the moment you got any standing water. And they'd be as uncomfortable as anything on the road as compliance for ride is of zero importance on a race tyre.
What I've been saying all along is: if you want your car to have identical handling/ride/nvh/steering feel to the day it came off the production line, get the OEM tyre (and that means N1 where it came off the line on N1s. Not N2s or N3s). If you don't care about that, then that's fine. However, there is a difference in performance whether you care to believe it or not, and ultimately, that's the point under discussion. As I said before, if you care so much about an old tyre (which would still arguable perform better than a Ling Long) then buying an OEM spec one should also be high on your list of priorities. If you don't have the ability to tell the difference between an OEM or an off the shelf tyre, you probably won't be able to tell the difference between age....
Edited by RacerMike on Tuesday 24th March 11:56
Ahhh Pistonheads - where what I say is theory and conjecture, and what you say is fact. 
But I don't care about my conjecture or your facts - with your industry knowledge, just answer this simple question:
How can a single tyre be optimised for the back of a Boxster and the back of a 996?
Or the back of a Cayman and the front of a CGT?
And these cars were concurrent, so they have the same verion of tyre.
But I don't care about my conjecture or your facts - with your industry knowledge, just answer this simple question:
How can a single tyre be optimised for the back of a Boxster and the back of a 996?
Or the back of a Cayman and the front of a CGT?
And these cars were concurrent, so they have the same verion of tyre.
ilduce said:
dreamcar said:
It never fails to amaze me that some people will cheerfully pay £60k + for a new Porsche and then even think of compromising on non OEM tyre specification for the sake of maybe £100. Crazy and foolish.
It never fails to amaze me that, people who are intelligent enough to be able to earn enough, to afford a £60k car, will believe something they're told by someone who has a financial interest in that very something.Crazy and foolish.
Link from an independent tyre supplier which sums the situation up regarding N rated tyres very well:-
http://www.puretyre.co.uk/tyre-information/tyre-de...
Edited by dreamcar on Tuesday 24th March 12:19
Orangecurry said:
How can a single tyre be optimised for the back of a Boxster and the back of a 996?
Or the back of a Cayman and the front of a CGT?
You'll find that it isn't! OEM spec from someone like Blackcircles will be closer than the a non N rated version, however, the same tyre, same 'spec' (i.e. N1) can also then have a different part number which means it is different, but without any identifiable markings apart from the sticker. Obviously, if you order your tyres from a Porsche dealer, they order the relevant part number which means you get the correct model spec of the same rating. Personally, I'm happy to accept the attribute trade on my car, but if it was brand new, I'd probably order it from Porsche.Or the back of a Cayman and the front of a CGT?
Just to add to the mix.
The N rated version of the MPSC is generally considered to be a "faux" MPSC. It's basically a high performance street tyre rather than an out and out road legal track tyre like the non oem MPSC versions are.
It is hard to get clear answers on the compound itself but what is clear is that it is neither as fast (data/lap time proven) nor does it possess the feel and grip of the non OEM MPSC version. Owners who tracked their cars did all they could to avoid the N rated version.
It also very clearly had a tread pattern with changes to improve wet weather running - wider water channel grooves, a slim extra groove on the outer shoulder, larger cross hatch pattern on the outer shoulder etc. These are all seen only on the N rated version. It is very easy to spot the difference once you know what you are looking for or have the tyres side by side.
So in that case the N rating meant a tire that lasted longer, was safer in the wet but not as sticky. I can see why Porsche as a company would want these features but....
Edit to add a picture. N rated MPSC on the right.
The N rated version of the MPSC is generally considered to be a "faux" MPSC. It's basically a high performance street tyre rather than an out and out road legal track tyre like the non oem MPSC versions are.
It is hard to get clear answers on the compound itself but what is clear is that it is neither as fast (data/lap time proven) nor does it possess the feel and grip of the non OEM MPSC version. Owners who tracked their cars did all they could to avoid the N rated version.
It also very clearly had a tread pattern with changes to improve wet weather running - wider water channel grooves, a slim extra groove on the outer shoulder, larger cross hatch pattern on the outer shoulder etc. These are all seen only on the N rated version. It is very easy to spot the difference once you know what you are looking for or have the tyres side by side.
So in that case the N rating meant a tire that lasted longer, was safer in the wet but not as sticky. I can see why Porsche as a company would want these features but....
Edit to add a picture. N rated MPSC on the right.
Edited by fioran0 on Tuesday 24th March 12:52
While the post above relating to MPSC is from time spent at the track. I remembered reading something some years ago that suggested that the N rating from Porsche's point of view was all about wet weather performance requirements. This was always interesting given the obvious changes on the MPSC when N rated.
I couldn't find the original article but I did find something on tirerack saying the same thing when I went off looking after my other post.
Relevant paragraph reads...
"The focus in recent radial tire development for Porsche vehicles has primarily included optimum handling on dry surfaces and the safest possible behavior on wet surfaces, even at high speeds. Tires developed by various manufacturers, in concert with Porsche, offer a specific set of wet grip properties which few, if any, other automobile manufacturers demand in equal measure from the tires they use on their vehicles."
Link itself is here http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.js...
How true that is I dont know but it's an interesting perspective. It also raises some interesting questions about the decision on whether or not to remain with an N rated tyre of appropriate the age to your vehicle or whether you move forward with tyre technology.
I couldn't find the original article but I did find something on tirerack saying the same thing when I went off looking after my other post.
Relevant paragraph reads...
"The focus in recent radial tire development for Porsche vehicles has primarily included optimum handling on dry surfaces and the safest possible behavior on wet surfaces, even at high speeds. Tires developed by various manufacturers, in concert with Porsche, offer a specific set of wet grip properties which few, if any, other automobile manufacturers demand in equal measure from the tires they use on their vehicles."
Link itself is here http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.js...
How true that is I dont know but it's an interesting perspective. It also raises some interesting questions about the decision on whether or not to remain with an N rated tyre of appropriate the age to your vehicle or whether you move forward with tyre technology.
RacerMike said:
Orangecurry said:
How can a single tyre be optimised for the back of a Boxster and the back of a 996?
Or the back of a Cayman and the front of a CGT?
You'll find that it isn't! OEM spec from someone like Blackcircles will be closer than the a non N rated version, however, the same tyre, same 'spec' (i.e. N1) can also then have a different part number which means it is different, but without any identifiable markings apart from the sticker. Obviously, if you order your tyres from a Porsche dealer, they order the relevant part number which means you get the correct model spec of the same rating.Or the back of a Cayman and the front of a CGT?
Where are these part numbers held?
RacerMike said:
You'll find that it isn't! OEM spec from someone like Blackcircles will be closer than the a non N rated version, however, the same tyre, same 'spec' (i.e. N1) can also then have a different part number which means it is different, but without any identifiable markings apart from the sticker. Obviously, if you order your tyres from a Porsche dealer, they order the relevant part number which means you get the correct model spec of the same rating. Personally, I'm happy to accept the attribute trade on my car, but if it was brand new, I'd probably order it from Porsche.
Don't bother wasting your time RacerMike - If others want to believe that there is a huge conspiracy going on by Porsche to con people to spend more money than they need to on tyres let them carry on believing it, neither you, I or anyone else will be able to convince them otherwise.Me - I'll carry on being foolish and fit overpriced N rated tyres to my Porsche as and when they are needed.
Sheepshanks said:
ilduce said:
RacerMike said:
Orangecurry said:
Sorry but this is simply not true. Porsche and the tyre manufactures refuse to provide ANY information on functional or constructional differences between N-rated and non-N.
Porsche may refuse to provide information, but working in an aspect of vehicle dynamics for an OEM and having had experience of both OEM spec and non OEM spec tyres of the same brand/model, I can guarantee you that there is a difference. It's not a conspiracy.I put non MO (Merc only) tyres on the rear of an SLK and it was difficult driving it without the traction light flashing.
On the other hand I fitted non N to a Cayman and the only difference was that they didn't wear out in 6k miles like the previous set of PS2's.
Summing up: If Porsche said it was day, I'd still pop outside to check.
My car didn't come with MO tyres from new - no manufacturer makes both front and rear sizes in MO versions.
dreamcar said:
ilduce said:
dreamcar said:
It never fails to amaze me that some people will cheerfully pay £60k + for a new Porsche and then even think of compromising on non OEM tyre specification for the sake of maybe £100. Crazy and foolish.
It never fails to amaze me that, people who are intelligent enough to be able to earn enough, to afford a £60k car, will believe something they're told by someone who has a financial interest in that very something.Crazy and foolish.
Link from an independent tyre supplier which sums the situation up regarding N rated tyres very well:-
http://www.puretyre.co.uk/tyre-information/tyre-de...
"The “N” Marking means that the tyres compound and pattern stays the exactly the same as the day it was tested by Porsche as tyre companies normally make small alterations to the compound or tread pattern etc, with an “N” marked tyre no alterations are permitted as alterations could have a negative effect on the Porsche’s handling."
Explain to me how over 90k miles:
N1's did 12-14k miles
n2's did 12-14k miles
n3's did 6-7k miles
same driving route. same MPG. same driving style.
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