Cayman R - owners/buyers/mods

[Beanoir]

Wasting youre breath Sarnie - you're arguing with a bunch of Gen1 Cayman S owners that have never owned the car that is the subject of this debate, so their experience, in the context of this debate speaks volumes.

[996GT2]

I can't notice any weight difference between the R and any of the gen 1 Caymans I've owned, to notice weight reduction in a car I think it has to be significant, but then mine has the heated leather sofas. It's the combination of everything that just makes it feel that bit more responsive, and you do notice the diff. If you love the Cayman chassis then the R is just more of the same but that bit more focused, personally I just find the whole package and look of the car that bit more compelling than a standard S, but it's not for everyone.

[Beanoir]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Theory is great and all, but there's not substitute for the real thing. I loved my Cayman S too Moose, great car, but i'm under no illusion that it wasn't bettered in the Cayman R...are the dampers any good...If I compare to the Cayman S, yes they are better. Do you disagree?

[PR36]

Its quite funny when people get upset when there cars are criticised. Gees its only a piece of metal! At the end of the day no one is suggesting the CR isn't far better than a stock S and a very nice thing to have. Its just the degree to which it is better. Some people seem to have the idea its a 'lightweight' and 'built in limited numbers' with all the connotations in the P world that carries. Myself I think that's stretching the imagination just a bit! Lets be honest its never going to have the cachet of a GT3, a lightweight RS or any other of the limited run cars. But its still a nice piece of kit. If people want to buy into that and pay extra so be it, personally I have no interest in that and would rather spend the 10k premium (and then some) on modding a stock S. Happy driving!

[edc]

I don't think anyone is under any illusion that you could spend more money and get a better quality damper. I think one of the points is that if the damping and suspension on an R is a major bugbear then you aren't likely going to pay the initial premium for the R only to devalue it and change the suspension out. You might as well start with a leggy S. I think people are buying the R because of the suspension and not in spite of it. Have the majority of owners or prospective purchasers tried a super expensive quality damper? Probably not but if the R ticks the 'top handling' box then ergo no mods. In the main for most people, making substantial mods or changes to what is after all still an in warranty and pretty new car isn't that normal. For big mods, most people enter a bit lower down the food chain / price point / age.

[Dan911]

Has anyone upgraded the exhaust tips?

[J-P]

I'm not precious about whether people think my car is good or not and I think I'm reasonably balanced even though I do own an R.

I totally agree that you could improve the car by improving the dampers but I would not call the OEM set-up "crappy". I also agree that if you were starting from scratch, it would make more sense to mod an s than mod an r.

But the OEM set-up of the R is good, definitely better than a std car. As for future values, who knows/cares? But there's no denying that currently the market is prepared to pay a significant premium for an R. This may continue or it may not?

[ChrisW.]

Isn't the question whether or not a good standard R is better than one fitted with PSS9's in place of the standard set-up ?

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Chap you need to have a good read of page 30. But here's the full post, just in case you can't be bothered to look back.

PR36 said:

Sarnie said:

New manual car;

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

No offence chaps but a 10k premium over an s for some stiffer shocks (but still the crappy oem variant), marginal weight saving and a very marginal power increase.

Nice car but Really?

ETA - so in summary I'm not reading things into posts that aren't there, I'm merely reading posts. The comment is there for all to see in black and white

Edited by J-P on Wednesday 24th June 19:50

[J-P]

ChrisW. said:

Isn't the question whether or not a good standard R is better than one fitted with PSS9's in place of the standard set-up ?

A decent after market damper system would be better IMHO and is normally adjustable too, so can be set-up to meet driver requirements.

[Beanoir]

J-P said:

I'm not precious about whether people think my car is good or not and I think I'm reasonably balanced even though I do own an R.

I totally agree that you could improve the car by improving the dampers but I would not call the OEM set-up "crappy". I also agree that if you were starting from scratch, it would make more sense to mod an s than mod an r.

But the OEM set-up of the R is good, definitely better than a std car. As for future values, who knows/cares? But there's no denying that currently the market is prepared to pay a significant premium for an R. This may continue or it may not?

Nailed it, that's what I couldn't manage to get out of my mouth.

[J-P]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

[fridaypassion]

Any R owners in West Yorkshire?

Happy to do a back to back/swap in mine against an R on my test route. I'm interested to see what the difference is I would wager it aint a lot in the grand scheme.

We are on the interwebz and a particularly fierce corner of it. People will defend their own choice of car thats human nature. I'm happy to give a totally unbiased opinion after a ride on an R. I'm fortunate to have stuff in the business that kicks the arse of any S/R whatever Cayman on road and track so I have high standards in ride and handling dealing with the Lotus stuff which is the pinnacle of whats possible with windows and a roof. The Honda K20 powered Elise I sold to fund the Cayman would tear an Cayman R a new bum hole in any situation other than long journey comfort!

Me personally not really fussed if the R is better I'm happy to report that the premium is worth it but if it isnt you'll get to find out. As I reported from my initial drive I have a test route I use for test drives and benchmarking of all kinds of different cars. I was expecting nothing more than average from the Cayman S and it proved to be pretty darn good. This is with the active suspension in normal mode. The sport mode is simply overdamped for road use but the regular mode is very compliant for a car of this weight. The steering is excellent, its reasonably fast. Its completely different to a Boxster which I've had before and its better in almost every way other than noise than the Z4M coupe which is a very solid benchmark for the Cayman.

[J-P]

fridaypassion said:

Any R owners in West Yorkshire?

Happy to do a back to back/swap in mine against an R on my test route. I'm interested to see what the difference is I would wager it aint a lot in the grand scheme.

We are on the interwebz and a particularly fierce corner of it. People will defend their own choice of car thats human nature. I'm happy to give a totally unbiased opinion after a ride on an R. I'm fortunate to have stuff in the business that kicks the arse of any S/R whatever Cayman on road and track so I have high standards in ride and handling dealing with the Lotus stuff which is the pinnacle of whats possible with windows and a roof. The Honda K20 powered Elise I sold to fund the Cayman would tear an Cayman R a new bum hole in any situation other than long journey comfort!

Me personally not really fussed if the R is better I'm happy to report that the premium is worth it but if it isnt you'll get to find out. As I reported from my initial drive I have a test route I use for test drives and benchmarking of all kinds of different cars. I was expecting nothing more than average from the Cayman S and it proved to be pretty darn good. This is with the active suspension in normal mode. The sport mode is simply overdamped for road use but the regular mode is very compliant for a car of this weight. The steering is excellent, its reasonably fast. Its completely different to a Boxster which I've had before and its better in almost every way other than noise than the Z4M coupe which is a very solid benchmark for the Cayman.

Would love to do this but I'm based in Surrey. However, I would say that any view on whether a car is worth its premium over another is pretty futile. It is currently worth more in the market, end of. Is that fair, right, justified? Yes to some (clearly) and no to others. You want a case for a £10k premium in favour of a CR over a CS? The buckets alone would cost you £7k to buy for an S, aluminium doors? Probably another £2k at least, Spyder alloys? (£1200 each), diff? Another £1500 etc. So yes can be justified in pure cost terms.

You want a case against? None of these things make an enormous difference to the car. It's subtly better and if you were to spend £10k in mods on an S you could get a much nicer driver's car.

My view? an S will never be an R and you'd have to be mad to turn an S into an actual R, much cheaper to just buy an R or mod an S and enjoy it in the knowledge that it'll outperform a std R.

Edited by J-P on Wednesday 24th June 20:45

[fridaypassion]

Sure I think theres a big danger of overthinking it. I made a call based on an exceptionally well specced S. The killer for me is the LSD which my car has. If it didnt have the LSD it wouldnt be in the same league IMO and I wouldnt have bought any other none LSD equipped S over an R. Most people wont even think about the LSD or even really use it but its just something I'm picky about. My Elise has been fitted with one ad thats a car you really dont need one in.

What about a base spec R like that blue one that was kicking about? That was a lot more expensive than my S but had no options on it. Still bothered about some dampers and an ARB? Nope.

[J-P]

fridaypassion said:

Sure I think theres a big danger of overthinking it. I made a call based on an exceptionally well specced S. The killer for me is the LSD which my car has. If it didnt have the LSD it wouldnt be in the same league IMO and I wouldnt have bought any other none LSD equipped S over an R. Most people wont even think about the LSD or even really use it but its just something I'm picky about. My Elise has been fitted with one ad thats a car you really dont need one in.

What about a base spec R like that blue one that was kicking about? That was a lot more expensive than my S but had no options on it. Still bothered about some dampers and an ARB? Nope.

Base spec R has all the stuff I described. You had to spec the less exotic stuff like, chairs and heavier alloys.

[Beanoir]

Personally I think LSDs are overhyped on these type of cars, it makes little difference to 99% of driving conditions.

Hey if all else fails thoughs just weld it right

[Beanoir]

J-P said:

Base spec R has all the stuff I described. You had to spec the less exotic stuff like, chairs and heavier alloys.

Correct, you can't spec R standard extras to an S for anywhere near £10k

[PR36]

J-P said:

fridaypassion said:

Any R owners in West Yorkshire?

Happy to do a back to back/swap in mine against an R on my test route. I'm interested to see what the difference is I would wager it aint a lot in the grand scheme.

We are on the interwebz and a particularly fierce corner of it. People will defend their own choice of car thats human nature. I'm happy to give a totally unbiased opinion after a ride on an R. I'm fortunate to have stuff in the business that kicks the arse of any S/R whatever Cayman on road and track so I have high standards in ride and handling dealing with the Lotus stuff which is the pinnacle of whats possible with windows and a roof. The Honda K20 powered Elise I sold to fund the Cayman would tear an Cayman R a new bum hole in any situation other than long journey comfort!

Me personally not really fussed if the R is better I'm happy to report that the premium is worth it but if it isnt you'll get to find out. As I reported from my initial drive I have a test route I use for test drives and benchmarking of all kinds of different cars. I was expecting nothing more than average from the Cayman S and it proved to be pretty darn good. This is with the active suspension in normal mode. The sport mode is simply overdamped for road use but the regular mode is very compliant for a car of this weight. The steering is excellent, its reasonably fast. Its completely different to a Boxster which I've had before and its better in almost every way other than noise than the Z4M coupe which is a very solid benchmark for the Cayman.

Would love to do this but I'm based in Surrey. However, I would say that any view on whether a car is worth its premium over another is pretty futile. It is currently worth more in the market, end of. Is that fair, right, justified? Yes to some (clearly) and no to others. You want a case for a £10k premium in favour of a CR over a CS? The buckets alone would cost you £7k to buy for an S, aluminium doors? Probably another £2k at least, Spyder alloys? (£1200 each), diff? Another £1500 etc. So yes can be justified in pure cost terms.

You want a case against? None of these things make an enormous difference to the car. It's subtly better and if you were to spend £10k in mods on an S you could get a much nicer driver's car.

My view an S will never be an R and you'd have to be mad to turn an S into an actual R, much cheaper to just buy an R or mod an S and enjoy it in the knowledge that it'll outperform a std R.

Or lets look at that 10k parts list another way, if you are not bothered about bling. Firstly the diff on the CR is basically a cosmetic item (not my words but those of the resident technical guru on here) so we don't need to cover that. So to the weight savings - Recaro buckets 1k, composite hatch 1k, lightweight battery £500, radio/amp delete £100 and bingo for not a lot of effort you lose 50kg for just over 2.5k on a stock S. The only thing missing then on our stock s is the 'base model' (removing the word crap so as not to offend) bilstein CR dampers, CR ARB which is inferior to an aftermarket one (and i repeat for Mrd's benefit the difference in thickness to a stock S is negligible), oh and 10bhp! All of the parts i listed can be taken off at resale and sold to habitual modders like me. So for not a lot of cash i get 99pct of a CR.

In the words of CH, tell me I'm wrong!

[John McM]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

True but the first two words are Owners/Buyers. As an R owner I want to hear from actual R owners who drive their cars and have modded them so I can learn from their experiences. What I'm seeing is non R owners pitching views/opinions.

I have done the mod route on a 964 and seen how after market suspension improved handling but that car was manufactured 25 years ago. I specifically bought an R because I wanted the benefit of Porsche researched and designed suspension for the particular use I have for the car. No doubt there were economic limitations in that choice. I'd love to know what they are from someone who has been there done that. The observation that I could have taken a cheaper car and modded it to end up with the same result doesn't hold water for me as I know that it would be money spent and not recovered at sale time. As I wrote in an earlier post it's better to just buy the Porsche designed car you want than try and turn a car into something it isn't.