Any converts from Manual to pdk here?
Discussion
koorby said:
As an expat Aussie now living in the UK these past three years, I am astonished just how Brits seem to be locked into a 1970's time warp when it comes to car transmission. In the USA, Canada, NZ and Australia almost every car sold is an automatic or DCT and manuals are usually special order. Kids learn to drive in automatics, rightly so, because they are much safer to drive by a massive margin and the old adage "what if they need to drive a manual?" is mostly irrelevant.
This completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars.
Weird. And utter bullsThis completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars.
t.Driving standards are far better in the UK than in Australia. Despite having dramatically less busy roads, and far less (essentially zero) discretion around speed limits compared to the UK, road deaths in Australia are 60% higher!
The only relevance of manual vs auto transmission would be theorising that the prevelance of the latter in Australia encourages laziness - leading to being inattentive - in drivers.
Edited to add - data here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...
Edited by braddo on Tuesday 28th April 10:16
koorby said:
As an expat Aussie now living in the UK these past three years, I am astonished just how Brits seem to be locked into a 1970's time warp when it comes to car transmission. In the USA, Canada, NZ and Australia almost every car sold is an automatic or DCT and manuals are usually special order. Kids learn to drive in automatics, rightly so, because they are much safer to drive by a massive margin and the old adage "what if they need to drive a manual?" is mostly irrelevant.
My British wife's 18yo son is learning to drive, in a manual (sigh!) of course, because that sadly is the norm here these days. The fact that he has almost zero driving aptitude, lives in a rural area where bikers use A-roads like F1 circuits, and struggles to do right-hand turns safely without either stalling or burning the clutch is largely ignored, because "he needs to learn to drive a manual". This completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars.
On top of that, the corrupt insurance industry here forces 18yo kids to buy clapped out decade-old 1.0 litre Corsas that have worn clutches and are accidents waiting to happen. Why not reward them for buying a modern, newer car with auto transmission and all the safety features that save lives?
So having driven manuals for the better part of 25 years then getting osteoarthritis in my left knee, my move to automatics/DCTs was very welcome and did not dilute the driving experience in any way whatsoever. In fact with PDK I can choose to be in whichever gear I want to be at any time, for as long as I want, and even rev to the limiter without intervention by electronics. If that's not control, what is? I can be in exactly the gear I choose when approaching a corner and exiting it.
So let the PH anoraks take the higher ground and preach their manual elitism, but the fact is that technology and the world has moved on and I am sure that those 10% of Porsche buyers who insist on a manual enjoy the experience, but don't let them deter you from enjoying a PDK.
Well said koorby!!!!My British wife's 18yo son is learning to drive, in a manual (sigh!) of course, because that sadly is the norm here these days. The fact that he has almost zero driving aptitude, lives in a rural area where bikers use A-roads like F1 circuits, and struggles to do right-hand turns safely without either stalling or burning the clutch is largely ignored, because "he needs to learn to drive a manual". This completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars.
On top of that, the corrupt insurance industry here forces 18yo kids to buy clapped out decade-old 1.0 litre Corsas that have worn clutches and are accidents waiting to happen. Why not reward them for buying a modern, newer car with auto transmission and all the safety features that save lives?
So having driven manuals for the better part of 25 years then getting osteoarthritis in my left knee, my move to automatics/DCTs was very welcome and did not dilute the driving experience in any way whatsoever. In fact with PDK I can choose to be in whichever gear I want to be at any time, for as long as I want, and even rev to the limiter without intervention by electronics. If that's not control, what is? I can be in exactly the gear I choose when approaching a corner and exiting it.
So let the PH anoraks take the higher ground and preach their manual elitism, but the fact is that technology and the world has moved on and I am sure that those 10% of Porsche buyers who insist on a manual enjoy the experience, but don't let them deter you from enjoying a PDK.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Alternatively ... if you've put a lot of time and effort into polishing your own helmet, it's because you enjoy the involvement and satisfaction it brings and thus the odds decrease that you'll trade that for the ease and efficiencies of getting a hand-job from, like, a real woman.Just sayin'
k
koorby said:
As an expat Aussie now living in the UK these past three years, I am astonished just how Brits seem to be locked into a 1970's time warp when it comes to car transmission. In the USA, Canada, NZ and Australia almost every car sold is an automatic or DCT and manuals are usually special order. Kids learn to drive in automatics, rightly so, because they are much safer to drive by a massive margin and the old adage "what if they need to drive a manual?" is mostly irrelevant.
My British wife's 18yo son is learning to drive, in a manual (sigh!) of course, because that sadly is the norm here these days. The fact that he has almost zero driving aptitude, lives in a rural area where bikers use A-roads like F1 circuits, and struggles to do right-hand turns safely without either stalling or burning the clutch is largely ignored, because "he needs to learn to drive a manual". This completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars.
On top of that, the corrupt insurance industry here forces 18yo kids to buy clapped out decade-old 1.0 litre Corsas that have worn clutches and are accidents waiting to happen. Why not reward them for buying a modern, newer car with auto transmission and all the safety features that save lives?
So having driven manuals for the better part of 25 years then getting osteoarthritis in my left knee, my move to automatics/DCTs was very welcome and did not dilute the driving experience in any way whatsoever. In fact with PDK I can choose to be in whichever gear I want to be at any time, for as long as I want, and even rev to the limiter without intervention by electronics. If that's not control, what is? I can be in exactly the gear I choose when approaching a corner and exiting it.
So let the PH anoraks take the higher ground and preach their manual elitism, but the fact is that technology and the world has moved on and I am sure that those 10% of Porsche buyers who insist on a manual enjoy the experience, but don't let them deter you from enjoying a PDK.
I disagree with most of what you have written, but for me the sentences in bold are important and consistent with my views.My British wife's 18yo son is learning to drive, in a manual (sigh!) of course, because that sadly is the norm here these days. The fact that he has almost zero driving aptitude, lives in a rural area where bikers use A-roads like F1 circuits, and struggles to do right-hand turns safely without either stalling or burning the clutch is largely ignored, because "he needs to learn to drive a manual". This completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars.
On top of that, the corrupt insurance industry here forces 18yo kids to buy clapped out decade-old 1.0 litre Corsas that have worn clutches and are accidents waiting to happen. Why not reward them for buying a modern, newer car with auto transmission and all the safety features that save lives?
So having driven manuals for the better part of 25 years then getting osteoarthritis in my left knee, my move to automatics/DCTs was very welcome and did not dilute the driving experience in any way whatsoever. In fact with PDK I can choose to be in whichever gear I want to be at any time, for as long as I want, and even rev to the limiter without intervention by electronics. If that's not control, what is? I can be in exactly the gear I choose when approaching a corner and exiting it.
So let the PH anoraks take the higher ground and preach their manual elitism, but the fact is that technology and the world has moved on and I am sure that those 10% of Porsche buyers who insist on a manual enjoy the experience, but don't let them deter you from enjoying a PDK.
braddo said:
Weird. And utter bullst.
Driving standards are far better in the UK than in Australia. Despite having dramatically less busy roads, and far less (essentially zero) discretion around speed limits compared to the UK, road deaths in Australia are 60% higher!
The only relevance of manual vs auto transmission would be theorising that the prevelance of the latter in Australia encourages laziness - leading to being inattentive - in drivers.
Edited to add - data here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...
You having to be kidding right? UK drivers are some of the most inattentive and inept drivers I have encountered (present PH company excluded of course). Take for instance how almost nobody uses indicators, how almost nobody understands how roundabouts work, how almost everyone over the age of 50 is stuck driving at 45mph whether they are in a 30/50/60/70 zone. Don't get me started on white van men and how tradies park anywhere on narrow roads causing untold traffic blockage and dangerous overtaking situations. Yes I am generalising but this is my experience here in the south of England.t.Driving standards are far better in the UK than in Australia. Despite having dramatically less busy roads, and far less (essentially zero) discretion around speed limits compared to the UK, road deaths in Australia are 60% higher!
The only relevance of manual vs auto transmission would be theorising that the prevelance of the latter in Australia encourages laziness - leading to being inattentive - in drivers.
Edited to add - data here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...
Edited by braddo on Tuesday 28th April 10:16
The reason road deaths are lower in the UK is because the roads are so ridiculously congested that the average speed is so much lower, especially on A/B roads.
Also the nanny-state government culture that is in Australia is likely the cause of road accidents, not speed. I spent most of my time in Oz monitoring the speedometer instead of relaxing in the drive and going with the traffic flow. There are hidden speed cameras every few miles and this leads to erratic driving by paranoid citizens. Wikipedia is hardly a term of reference mate, my 32 years driving experience in Oz is a little more trustworthy than that
koorby said:
"how almost everyone over the age of 50 is stuck driving at 45mph whether they are in a 30/50/60/70 zone. "
I take offence there !it's mainly the idiots on there mobile phones texting and the 4x4 crowd!
"Don't get me started on white van men and how tradies park anywhere on narrow roads causing untold traffic blockage and dangerous overtaking situations. "
Where else are they meant to park when delivering I tend to find'tradies'the better drivers that's why I hate driving at weekends because all the idiots who do not drive all week come out!
"Yes I am generalising but this is my experience here in the south of England."
And I live in South of England
"Also the nanny-state government culture "
That was mainly Queensland pubs use to shut Sunday lunch time for the rest of the day
when I was there 28 years ago,loved the N.T roads myself!
I take offence there !it's mainly the idiots on there mobile phones texting and the 4x4 crowd!
"Don't get me started on white van men and how tradies park anywhere on narrow roads causing untold traffic blockage and dangerous overtaking situations. "
Where else are they meant to park when delivering I tend to find'tradies'the better drivers that's why I hate driving at weekends because all the idiots who do not drive all week come out!
"Yes I am generalising but this is my experience here in the south of England."
And I live in South of England
"Also the nanny-state government culture "
That was mainly Queensland pubs use to shut Sunday lunch time for the rest of the day
when I was there 28 years ago,loved the N.T roads myself!Edited by itsybitsy on Tuesday 28th April 13:11
nsm3 said:
I'm a happy convert, but I'm not daft enough to bother rationalising it in here.
so true .... in fact don't bother discussing anything on the internet because its so much better talking in real lifeyou know, like, down the pub
with your mates
where you can get some proper feedback and a real converstaion
the internet is for cretins and people who just want to throw a bit of anger around
great answers all (apart from page 3 where it de-generates into a slanging match!). Seems a pretty even split on opinions. It has opened my mind to at least trying a PDK variant rather than just dismissing it, so hopefully I will get to try out both and make my own conclusions. I still err towards a manual but hope to be suitably impressed with a PDK too as it gives me more options in the buying market.
One other question related to a PDK, I assume it cannot be over-revved? ie when I read of cayman/boxsters being bought, its often mentioned on here about getting it inspected at an OPC for over-revs. Guess an OPC inspection would still be required though on something like an R just for piece of mind.
One other question related to a PDK, I assume it cannot be over-revved? ie when I read of cayman/boxsters being bought, its often mentioned on here about getting it inspected at an OPC for over-revs. Guess an OPC inspection would still be required though on something like an R just for piece of mind.
Edited by MJ911 on Tuesday 28th April 13:18
MJ911 said:
One other question related to a PDK, I assume it cannot be over-revved? ie when I read of cayman/boxsters being bought, its often mentioned on here about getting it inspected at an OPC for over-revs. Guess an OPC inspection would still be required though on something like an R just for piece of mind.
Without checking the book of words to be sure I believe in sport plus there is no over rev limit.Edited by MJ911 on Tuesday 28th April 13:18
dreamcar said:
Without checking the book of words to be sure I believe in sport plus there is no over rev limit.
The PDK won't let you change down if this would cause a 'money shift' and if you hit the limiter on the way up, you'll just stay there, banging the limiter but not doing any damage.koorby said:
...Wikipedia is hardly a term of reference mate, my 32 years driving experience in Oz is a little more trustworthy than that
Where did you spend most of your time driving? Unless it was around Syndey/Melbourne/Brisbane it won't be comparable to SE England. My own experience and those of Aussie family and friends around SE Qld and Sydney paint a very different picture to your rosy view (especially when they see the driving in the UK themselves). In any case, the manual gearbox has no real bearing on driving standards in the UK.
For me, for a fun car I only want manual and that won't change. It doesn't mean I couldn't enjoy a PDK car, but I would prefer manual.
jackal said:
so true .... in fact don't bother discussing anything on the internet because its so much better talking in real life
you know, like, down the pub
with your mates
where you can get some proper feedback and a real converstaion
the internet is for cretins and people who just want to throw a bit of anger around
That is byou know, like, down the pub
with your mates
where you can get some proper feedback and a real converstaion
the internet is for cretins and people who just want to throw a bit of anger around
ks what sort of "mates" have you got who want to talk about PDK vs manual in the pub ? Far better on forums with like minded "specialist" nutters.... + its harmless.TB993tt said:
That is bks what sort of "mates" have you got who want to talk about PDK vs manual in the pub ? Far better on forums with like minded "specialist" nutters.... + its harmless.
Nothing quite like "keyboard Warriors"!!! I think I might start a new thread extolling the virues of Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes - that also normally starts the fur flying...ks what sort of "mates" have you got who want to talk about PDK vs manual in the pub ? Far better on forums with like minded "specialist" nutters.... + its harmless.Edited by dreamcar on Tuesday 28th April 15:25
dreamcar said:
Without checking the book of words to be sure I believe in sport plus there is no over rev limit.
There is a rev limiter for sure. In Sport Plus mode using manual shift I bounced off the rev limiter a few days ago when departing from a set of lights over-enthusiastically (my bad). It's just a software routine that protects the engine revving past 8,000 rpm; when you hit the limiter the throttle will retard in bursts.dreamcar said:
Without checking the book of words to be sure I believe in sport plus there is no over rev limit.
Wrong for the 987 at least - the box never allows a "money shift".It does, however, let you smack right into the hard limiter (at least sometimes), which is nice. If Porsche insists on making cars that only rev to 7,200 revs and are only fun above 4k, this will happen
PDK is fine. It is streets ahead of an old school auto (which, to my mind, includes even the best ZF box) and any other dual clutch box that I have used.
But its an auto at the end of the day. It knocks 10-20% off the enjoyment of a spirited drive and makes the car stupidly fast through the gears, which isn't a good thing given that these cars can barely be revved on most roads if you like having a driving licence.
Exiting a tight corner on a B-road in a manual Cayman, I would smash through 2nd, cack up the change to 3rd and find myself still going 60-70mph before braking for the next corner and cacking up the change down, but I would have a lot more fun than mashing the pedal in a PDK car and ending up at 90mph before flicking the paddles twice to get back to 2nd for the next corner.
I can heel and toe about as well as most PHers can think and write, so I am not writing from the position of "Driving God". Ultimately, driving a PDK car on our roads is just too bloody easy. And easy things aren't usually fun. If there were no speed limits, I might well choose a PDK again, because I am much faster driving one and could take enough extra enjoyment from the speed, engine note, braking etc to make up for missing the gear changing; but driving these cars at legal speeds is insanely easy.
As for driving in traffic, I am not really persuaded that PDK is much better than a manual. You still have to use the paddles (unless you drive like a t
t or don't mind an idiot changing gear for you), and I am pretty sure that I am better at low speed clutch control than a PDK box.klootzak said:
Alternatively ... if you've put a lot of time and effort into polishing your own helmet, it's because you enjoy the involvement and satisfaction it brings and thus the odds decrease that you'll trade that for the ease and efficiencies of getting a hand-job from, like, a real woman.
Just sayin'
k
Having, over donkeys years, spend a lot time trying to get double declutching right, heel and toe right, tuning 40DCOes right, starting single cylinder motorcycles right etc I might think those skills are critical to the enjoyment of driving. Or I might think that the important things about driving on the road - planning, anticipation, steering, balance, braking remain. Driving on the road is (for me) about elegance. Times move on about how this might be best achieved. Manual gearchanging is on the cusp....Just sayin'
k
On the track (for Me) the stopwatch is king - and there is no way I would abuse MY P&J to the degree necessary to achieve the ultimate time.
bcr5784 said:
Having, over donkeys years, spend a lot time trying to get double declutching right, heel and toe right, tuning 40DCOes right, starting single cylinder motorcycles right etc I might think those skills are critical to the enjoyment of driving. Or I might think that the important things about driving on the road - planning, anticipation, steering, balance, braking remain. Driving on the road is (for me) about elegance. Times move on about how this might be best achieved. Manual gearchanging is on the cusp....
On the track (for Me) the stopwatch is king - and there is no way I would abuse MY P&J to the degree necessary to achieve the ultimate time.
True. Changing gear well doesn't make you a much better road driver, but it does make road driving more engaging and fun. There isn't much fun in anticipation and planning, notwithstanding that they are extremely important to safe, smooth driving on the road.On the track (for Me) the stopwatch is king - and there is no way I would abuse MY P&J to the degree necessary to achieve the ultimate time.
ORD said:
There isn't much fun in anticipation and planning, notwithstanding that they are extremely important to safe, smooth driving on the road.
We'll have to disagree on that - indeed I'd argue that anticipation and planning are amongst the KEY ingredients that separate the outstanding RACERS from the merely good.Gassing Station | Boxster/Cayman | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff