Considering New Boxster as only car - 4Cyl Refresh Options?
Discussion
nickfrog said:
Torque again. The most misunderstood automotive metric. Seized bolt, loads of torque applied, no movement. You can't discuss torque separately, it's makes little sense. You need to associate power/torque/revs/gearing.
The Cayman chassis needs NA power delivery IMO. And 6-pot sound.
When we are talking torque I think even moose and I know what me mean - even if we don't agree about its importance (given the gearing that Porsche have lumbered us with). But in regards to the Cayman (981) chassis - and the gearing we have - it would actually benefit from torque to unstick it and make the handling more engaging/playful.The Cayman chassis needs NA power delivery IMO. And 6-pot sound.
bcr5784 said:
nickfrog said:
Torque again. The most misunderstood automotive metric. Seized bolt, loads of torque applied, no movement. You can't discuss torque separately, it's makes little sense. You need to associate power/torque/revs/gearing.
The Cayman chassis needs NA power delivery IMO. And 6-pot sound.
When we are talking torque I think even moose and I know what me mean - even if we don't agree about its importance (given the gearing that Porsche have lumbered us with). But in regards to the Cayman (981) chassis - and the gearing we have - it would actually benefit from torque to unstick it and make the handling more engaging/playful.The Cayman chassis needs NA power delivery IMO. And 6-pot sound.
I am talking about the torque that multiplied by revs gives power and the very last thing you want in a low PMOI chassis is anything but progressive and predictable power delivery.
nickfrog said:
Do you genuinely think that the gearing, including final drive, is the same between a T4 and a na f6 ? Seriously ?
I am talking about the torque that multiplied by revs gives power and the very last thing you want in a low PMOI chassis is anything but progressive and predictable power delivery.
Gearing certainly won't be any lower, but since both 981s are overgeared in 6th (NA) and vastly so in 7th (PDK) there would be no need (other than economy) to gear them higher. I'd actually be very surprized if the gearing actually changed - it's far more suitable for a turbo engine than a NA one.I am talking about the torque that multiplied by revs gives power and the very last thing you want in a low PMOI chassis is anything but progressive and predictable power delivery.
These days turbos can give very progressive power delivery once at reasonable revs (say above 2000 or so) - indeed the torque curve of the NA 981 engines are much less progressive in the 4000-4500 region than almost any turbo. Turbos generally are engineered to have a flat torque curve over a wide range - typically something like 2000-5500 for a sporting engine.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Have to agree, I never viewed the 944/68 seriously back in those days, it was 911 only for me. But strangely, once the Boxster was produced, I was very happy to have one (several, in fact).Now, the 911 is in a very different sector and in general, I am not so interested in them.
Some of the magazines are claiming a Frankfurt reveal for refreshed Boxster. Despite the seemingly blowout Black edition (A load of discounted extras I don't want) it seems discounts are thin on the ground. I can help but think Bluetooth and DAB should just be included and probably will be in the refresh.
tyrrell said:
I've been thinking about this, a new Cayman S with flat 4 turbocharged engine, 370BHP lighter weight, huge slugs of mid & low range torques, early thirties MPG around town, starts to sound quite appealing 
Yep and electric turbo- or rather superchargers would effectively remove all lag and provide throttle response absolutely equal to a N/A engine, because the turbo would keep on spinning and building boost off throttle.I would not be surprised to see this technology in the 991/981 facelifts. There's a lot of development going on around this behind the curtains and I think it could be a complete game changer.
http://articles.sae.org/13421/
more torque, more power, better fuel economy, same throttle response.
the only downsides are sound and additional weight, although not nearly as much as with a real hybrid system.
The downsides are:-
(1) It will sound terrible.
(2) It will not be lag free. That is a motoring journalism myth that gets repeated about all new FI systems.
As for the upsides, it will weigh no less and will be perhaps 10% more fuel efficient (which is an irrelevance given the total cost of ownership).
It will also be boring as all hell to drive because it will be too fast in the mid-range to allow you to rev it out.
It's turd. But Porsche has no choice if VAG has put out a requirement for 4 cyl engines.
(1) It will sound terrible.
(2) It will not be lag free. That is a motoring journalism myth that gets repeated about all new FI systems.
As for the upsides, it will weigh no less and will be perhaps 10% more fuel efficient (which is an irrelevance given the total cost of ownership).
It will also be boring as all hell to drive because it will be too fast in the mid-range to allow you to rev it out.
It's turd. But Porsche has no choice if VAG has put out a requirement for 4 cyl engines.
ORD said:
The downsides are:-
(1) It will sound terrible.
(2) It will not be lag free. That is a motoring journalism myth that gets repeated about all new FI systems.
As for the upsides, it will weigh no less and will be perhaps 10% more fuel efficient (which is an irrelevance given the total cost of ownership).
It will also be boring as all hell to drive because it will be too fast in the mid-range to allow you to rev it out.
It's turd. But Porsche has no choice if VAG has put out a requirement for 4 cyl engines.
It could be lag free, I was in Leeds opc on Saturday for their open day and one of the salesmen mentioned it might be 2 sequential turbos rather than how the 911 currently does it. I think it might have been done this way on the 959 but I'm not sure if that had lag or not. I'm more concerned about lack of noise and I reckon it will be synthesized like many other manufacturers have done.(1) It will sound terrible.
(2) It will not be lag free. That is a motoring journalism myth that gets repeated about all new FI systems.
As for the upsides, it will weigh no less and will be perhaps 10% more fuel efficient (which is an irrelevance given the total cost of ownership).
It will also be boring as all hell to drive because it will be too fast in the mid-range to allow you to rev it out.
It's turd. But Porsche has no choice if VAG has put out a requirement for 4 cyl engines.
chriscoates81 said:
It could be lag free, I was in Leeds opc on Saturday for their open day and one of the salesmen mentioned it might be 2 sequential turbos rather than how the 911 currently does it. I think it might have been done this way on the 959 but I'm not sure if that had lag or not. I'm more concerned about lack of noise and I reckon it will be synthesized like many other manufacturers have done.
Most sporting car manufacturers "engineer" the noise the car makes (tuned induction systems systems piped into the interior, PSE etc as Porsche do). At what point you regard it as "synthetic" is very much a personal thing. This is not a new thing - the original MX5 exhaust was engineered to sound like the Elan it aped many years ago. Personally I think it's already gone past the point where you can seriously regard the sound as truly natural in most mainstream sports cars. bcr5784 said:
Most sporting car manufacturers "engineer" the noise the car makes (tuned induction systems systems piped into the interior, PSE etc as Porsche do). At what point you regard it as "synthetic" is very much a personal thing. This is not a new thing - the original MX5 exhaust was engineered to sound like the Elan it aped many years ago. Personally I think it's already gone past the point where you can seriously regard the sound as truly natural in most mainstream sports cars.
True - always a matter of degree, but with some fairly clear categories of manipulation. I have no problem at all with designing an engine to sound good; I am not impressed by and don't like too much exhaust trickery (but that is also because I prefer induction noise to exhaust noise; I hate electronically generated sound being pumped through speakers! The Porsche sound tube thing is a hard one to have a clear feeling about. It's a bit naff but not wholly fake, so I think of it a bit like exhaust trickery - at least there is a physical progress generating real sound.ORD said:
True - always a matter of degree, but with some fairly clear categories of manipulation. I have no problem at all with designing an engine to sound good; I am not impressed by and don't like too much exhaust trickery (but that is also because I prefer induction noise to exhaust noise; I hate electronically generated sound being pumped through speakers! The Porsche sound tube thing is a hard one to have a clear feeling about. It's a bit naff but not wholly fake, so I think of it a bit like exhaust trickery - at least there is a physical progress generating real sound.
I frankly doubt most could tell the difference between the Porsche sound tube and a (well engineered?) arrangement via speakers - it's more-or-less a single source. The surround sound an exhaust creates would be much more difficult.bcr5784 said:
I frankly doubt most could tell the difference between the Porsche sound tube and a (well engineered?) arrangement via speakers - it's more-or-less a single source. The surround sound an exhaust creates would be much more difficult.
But that doesn't matter to me. I would know the sound was fake and that would ruin it. It's like a perfect copy of a painting - it can look identical and still be worthless because it isn't real.ORD said:
bcr5784 said:
I frankly doubt most could tell the difference between the Porsche sound tube and a (well engineered?) arrangement via speakers - it's more-or-less a single source. The surround sound an exhaust creates would be much more difficult.
But that doesn't matter to me. I would know the sound was fake and that would ruin it. It's like a perfect copy of a painting - it can look identical and still be worthless because it isn't real.Trotmant said:
The 918 uses electric motors to ‘turbo charge’ the car – surely this is the performance technology and aural benchmark to be disseminated throughout the Porsche range in years to come. There is clearly no performance or sound issue with the 918. So really its bottoms down to; is can Porsche accelerate this technology into a commercial platform that could be mainstream. The reality is we are perhaps a car generation away from that being financial economical IMO (or gov mandated) – so makes sense that this ‘bridging period’ will see a mix of technology some with pot4 and other premium models kept NA for now. Therefore providing maximum spread across the existing and prospect customer base. After all lots of people are happy to buy a Porsche for the brand, not the way it performs or sounds.
I guess it boils down to cost, after all a boxster a hell of a lot cheaper than a 918 and i imagine the electric engine in the 918 would add a fair whack ontop of the cost of a boxster.Gassing Station | Boxster/Cayman | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff