981 Boxster vs 987 Cayman S
Discussion
I can't understand the negativity towards the 981. I switched from a Spyder to a 981 S and from 20k miles in them I feel I'm in a decent position to pass comments. Firstly lets establish how much better a Spyder drove than a standard 987. My answer is lots!!! Does anyone disagree?
Secondly on the roads in my area, which Evo Magazine state are the best in the UK for enthusiasts, the Spyder is ever so slightly better than my 20" wheeled 981 S. However there's absolutely no way a Spyder would pull away from a well driven 981. For the rest of the time when 10/10ths isn't the required driving mode, the 981 is simply in a different league to live with. Less scuttle shake over the Spyder, which had much less than a standard 987 in my opinion, more comfortable, quieter and a very relaxing place to enjoy a long journey.
For me though the ultimate Boxster would have to be the best bits of a 981, mixed with the Spyders best bits and a bit more power. Happily my new Spyder will be built in October and arrive in time for Xmas. I'm quite sure that it'll be the best Boxster ever!
Secondly on the roads in my area, which Evo Magazine state are the best in the UK for enthusiasts, the Spyder is ever so slightly better than my 20" wheeled 981 S. However there's absolutely no way a Spyder would pull away from a well driven 981. For the rest of the time when 10/10ths isn't the required driving mode, the 981 is simply in a different league to live with. Less scuttle shake over the Spyder, which had much less than a standard 987 in my opinion, more comfortable, quieter and a very relaxing place to enjoy a long journey.
For me though the ultimate Boxster would have to be the best bits of a 981, mixed with the Spyders best bits and a bit more power. Happily my new Spyder will be built in October and arrive in time for Xmas. I'm quite sure that it'll be the best Boxster ever!
None of these cars are going to pull away from each other, you need 100bhp to notice a big change.
So that just leaves feel and the 987.2 cars have that over the 981, it's that simple.
The 981 may be a better car in all areas, but people who have come from an Elise, Atom, Caterham etc which are many Spyders owners, the 981 just don't cut it.
If you are coming from any mainstream brand it's going to feel amazing, it's a great car.
The market was tiny for the Spyder and the R with only 400 cars sold in total.
And as many know I had to adjust mine to be more focused even then.
So that just leaves feel and the 987.2 cars have that over the 981, it's that simple.
The 981 may be a better car in all areas, but people who have come from an Elise, Atom, Caterham etc which are many Spyders owners, the 981 just don't cut it.
If you are coming from any mainstream brand it's going to feel amazing, it's a great car.
The market was tiny for the Spyder and the R with only 400 cars sold in total.
And as many know I had to adjust mine to be more focused even then.
PorscheGT4 said:
None of these cars are going to pull away from each other, you need 100bhp to notice a big change.
So that just leaves feel and the 987.2 cars have that over the 981, it's that simple.
The 981 may be a better car in all areas, but people who have come from an Elise, Atom, Caterham etc which are many Spyders owners, the 981 just don't cut it.
If you are coming from any mainstream brand it's going to feel amazing, it's a great car.
The market was tiny for the Spyder and the R with only 400 cars sold in total.
And as many know I had to adjust mine to be more focused even then.
Just to clarify my position. Yes, the steering of the 981 is seriously deficient. But ANY modern Porsche is a numb tank compared with an Elise, Atom or Caterham If you want a REALLY focused sportscar get one (and accept the serious compromise that results) - but Porsche don't make one. If you want a well rounded DD sporting car the 981 is a great choice - despite its steering. Which is why I bought one.So that just leaves feel and the 987.2 cars have that over the 981, it's that simple.
The 981 may be a better car in all areas, but people who have come from an Elise, Atom, Caterham etc which are many Spyders owners, the 981 just don't cut it.
If you are coming from any mainstream brand it's going to feel amazing, it's a great car.
The market was tiny for the Spyder and the R with only 400 cars sold in total.
And as many know I had to adjust mine to be more focused even then.
Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 28th May 22:18
bcr5784 said:
PorscheGT4 said:
None of these cars are going to pull away from each other, you need 100bhp to notice a big change.
So that just leaves feel and the 987.2 cars have that over the 981, it's that simple.
The 981 may be a better car in all areas, but people who have come from an Elise, Atom, Caterham etc which are many Spyders owners, the 981 just don't cut it.
If you are coming from any mainstream brand it's going to feel amazing, it's a great car.
The market was tiny for the Spyder and the R with only 400 cars sold in total.
And as many know I had to adjust mine to be more focused even then.
Just to clarify my position. Yes, the steering of the 981 is seriously deficient. But ANY modern Porsche is a numb tank compared with an Elise, Atom or Caterham If you want a REALLY focused sportscar get one (and accept the serious compromise that results) - but Porsche don't make one. If you want a well rounded DD sporting car the 981 is a great choice - despite its steering. Which is why I bought one.So that just leaves feel and the 987.2 cars have that over the 981, it's that simple.
The 981 may be a better car in all areas, but people who have come from an Elise, Atom, Caterham etc which are many Spyders owners, the 981 just don't cut it.
If you are coming from any mainstream brand it's going to feel amazing, it's a great car.
The market was tiny for the Spyder and the R with only 400 cars sold in total.
And as many know I had to adjust mine to be more focused even then.
Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 28th May 22:18
Porsches are still very special.....
bcr5784 said:
Just to clarify my position. Yes, the steering of the 981 is seriously deficient. But ANY modern Porsche is a numb tank compared with an Elise, Atom or Caterham If you want a REALLY focused sportscar get one (and accept the serious compromise that results) - but Porsche don't make one. If you want a well rounded DD sporting car the 981 is a great choice - despite its steering. Which is why I bought one.
This^^ a lot. And just to add another 2p worth, I'd wager that in a blindfolded test (not safe but hey Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 28th May 22:18
) driving a variety HPAS and EPAS Porsches back to back, 99% of people here wouldn't be able to reliably say which ones were EPAs and which were HPAS. In fact, I'm sure if someone handed a 981 to us and lied to us saying it had a retro HPAS system installed, we'd probably wax lyrical on the improvement over the EPAS system and make tits of ourselves Mario149 said:
This^^ a lot. And just to add another 2p worth, I'd wager that in a blindfolded test (not safe but hey ) driving a variety HPAS and EPAS Porsches back to back, 99% of people here wouldn't be able to reliably say which ones were EPAs and which were HPAS. In fact, I'm sure if someone handed a 981 to us and lied to us saying it had a retro HPAS system installed, we'd probably wax lyrical on the improvement over the EPAS system and make tits of ourselves
But PAS vs manual? The real thing is that EPAS is more difficult to get right than HPAS and the 981's EPAS really isn't that special an example of the breed. I'd wager that any racing driver (and the vast majority of keen drivers) could get tell the difference between an Elise and any PAS Porsche blindfold. And between any manual Porsche 911 and PAS 911 Porsche too. Can't speak for everyone - people buy Porsches (in particular) for all sorts of reasons not associated with their driving appeal - but I'd be astonished if even 99% of them couldn't make those distinctions. ) driving a variety HPAS and EPAS Porsches back to back, 99% of people here wouldn't be able to reliably say which ones were EPAs and which were HPAS. In fact, I'm sure if someone handed a 981 to us and lied to us saying it had a retro HPAS system installed, we'd probably wax lyrical on the improvement over the EPAS system and make tits of ourselves But if they can't it's a measure of how far Porsche's clients (if not their cars) have become more interested in the car's image than its driving characteristics.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I agree and feel the same. My 987 is already a step away from what I want, and the 981 is better in ways that don't matter to me (faster, more economical) and worse in ways that do (steering feel).I suspect that my tastes fall somewhere closer to a 993 given that I keep asking myself whether I actually want a lotus (I never actually go so far as to prepare to buy one, but it shows what my tastes are).
The steering feel debate is weird. The difference is really very very noticeable if you are used to driving with a deliberate awareness of the feedback from the car. Just like you can diagnose that something has gone wrong with the dampers even if you arent technically minded enough to say quite what. The loss of brake feel is more marginal but it does grate after a while.
bcr5784 said:
But PAS vs manual?
That's definitely a difference I like to think we could all notice 
I just get very frustrated when people bang on about how crap EPAS compared to HPAS. I've got a 993, a 7.1 GT3 (both of which I take on track) and an inbound Boxster GTS that I spent half a day in at PEC Silverstone. Are they different? Yes. Is it a massive issue in real life? No. Do they all steer bloody well? Yes. Methinks that sometimes people have been watching a few too many Chris Harris or Evo videos where they bang on about HPAS/EPAS endlessly because the cars are so good and that have to find *something* to complain about, and steering feel is a more petrolhead thing to whinge about than boot space.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It'd be an interesting test to see whether we could, but I think you give most of us too much credit. IME just changing the geo so it's correct (or what you like for what you use the car for) can have a bigger effect than an HPAS/EPAS difference in terms of feel of the wheel in your hands. I get my cars geo-ed every year so have a fair idea of how they all should drive. I suspect a lot of people don't even have that baseline Mario149 said:
That's definitely a difference I like to think we could all notice I just get very frustrated when people bang on about how crap EPAS compared to HPAS. I've got a 993, a 7.1 GT3 (both of which I take on track) and an inbound Boxster GTS that I spent half a day in at PEC Silverstone. Are they different? Yes. Is it a massive issue in real life? No. Do they all steer bloody well? Yes.
Methinks that sometimes people have been watching a few too many Chris Harris or Evo videos where they bang on about HPAS/EPAS endlessly because the cars are so good and that have to find *something* to complain about, and steering feel is a more petrolhead thing to whinge about than boot space.
I said it was crap years ago like I say long ratios are a pain, it seems to take a few years befor people agree and for jurno's to start writing about both issue. I just get very frustrated when people bang on about how crap EPAS compared to HPAS. I've got a 993, a 7.1 GT3 (both of which I take on track) and an inbound Boxster GTS that I spent half a day in at PEC Silverstone. Are they different? Yes. Is it a massive issue in real life? No. Do they all steer bloody well? Yes. Methinks that sometimes people have been watching a few too many Chris Harris or Evo videos where they bang on about HPAS/EPAS endlessly because the cars are so good and that have to find *something* to complain about, and steering feel is a more petrolhead thing to whinge about than boot space.
But the steering is a real issue over the older cars, looking at the RS vid and gt4 vid though they may have got the software right .
In a non GT car the steering stops me buying one full stop and while it may be ok to some, when I get back in my cars after a loan car, it's quite shocking. And to not know you would have to be dead.
Like wise too much feed back was also not a good thing, the 996 GT3 cannot cope on UK B roads the steering gets knocked all over the place to a point it starts to get out of control
Lotus are also not the best but a close 2nd to Noble who nailed the steering in the 3r and the ride.
You seem to have to re geo every lotus as they are still scared to give you a dialled in car and just sell under steering annoyance out the box, it's annoying you have to re geo the car to work in that sector market !
I am waiting to see the 540s they have put real arb back on the car and NOT put in electric steering .
Could be a very nice super car.
Mario149 said:
This^^ a lot. And just to add another 2p worth, I'd wager that in a blindfolded test (not safe but hey ) driving a variety HPAS and EPAS Porsches back to back, 99% of people here wouldn't be able to reliably say which ones were EPAs and which were HPAS. In fact, I'm sure if someone handed a 981 to us and lied to us saying it had a retro HPAS system installed, we'd probably wax lyrical on the improvement over the EPAS system and make tits of ourselves
On reflection having had a cup of tea and walked the dog, the above may have been a little flippant. Thinking about it, I do think most of us could tell the difference if we literally drove the same car back to back with EPAS and HPAS if we were told which one was which, but between models/years I think it would be a lot more difficult. And if you added a couple of days gap between drives, more difficult still. All assuming/tyres etc were the same ) driving a variety HPAS and EPAS Porsches back to back, 99% of people here wouldn't be able to reliably say which ones were EPAs and which were HPAS. In fact, I'm sure if someone handed a 981 to us and lied to us saying it had a retro HPAS system installed, we'd probably wax lyrical on the improvement over the EPAS system and make tits of ourselves PorscheGT4 said:
In a non GT car the steering stops me buying one full stop and while it may be ok to some, when I get back in my cars after a loan car, it's quite shocking. And to not know you would have to be dead.
Interestingly I was going to mention this. For people who do ensure their cars drive correctly, I'm sure loaners are always a bit disappointing - you get out of your well kept, set up as you like it vehicle that's going in for a service, and in return, they give you a loaner that probably hasn't seen an alignment machine since it left the factory and in the meantime has been thrashed over bumpy roads/potholes etc for a few thousand test drive miles. It's not wonder that the loaner doesn't quite live up to expectations, EPAS or not 
I find the 981 steering is "ok" and "pleasant" as a car to get from A to B but you're kidding yourself if you think it's more engaging/fun/sporty/whatever then a 987.
That said the 987 steering isn't perfect in my opinion, it took me 6 months to accept the variable power assistance b
ks, I much prefer the steering in my FWD Ford.
That said the 987 steering isn't perfect in my opinion, it took me 6 months to accept the variable power assistance b
ks, I much prefer the steering in my FWD Ford.ORD said:
It is not a marginal thing. If the 987 is a 7/10 for steering feel, the 981 is a 5/10 and a BMW 3 series is 2/10. I think people confuse the car steering nicely (which the 981 does - the actual responses are very similar to a 987) and having feel in the steering.
Agree. Take Chris Harris's review of the PASM 981S on launch - he says he can put the car where he wants, which is different from praising the actual feel/sensations of the steering.I have heard speccing the sport chassis improves the feel.
Does anyone know how much the steering feel has improved through software since launch? I just can't see Porsche getting the steering wrong on the spyder or GT4 (perhaps GT4 owners can comment?). It's been 3 years or so since the 981 was launched so I would hope that things have improved a little with each model year.
Aside from the actual development of the technology, I think a wider issue is that many buyers probably don't want to feel every last bit of the road - remember a lot of boxster get sold to wives of bankers living in Chelsea who just want a bit of a fun drive for the weekend!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Hey cmoose, totally agree with your thinking but my reasoning is based on the fact that no one seems to complain about the 991 GT3 steering.I agree stuff like downsizing engines (and in fact the change to electric steering) etc is not to benefit the customer but to meet EU emissions targets etc.
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