981 Boxster vs 987 Cayman S
Discussion
I drove my Cayman S up to Silverstone today along the A413, and I drove back in a 981 Boxster loan car.
I really like it. I shall reserve my final view until I have driven it for a few hundred miles (rather than about 70 or so, albeit a mix of town, A road and a bit of motorway so quite a good opportunity to test it).
My impressions:-
(1) It is noticeably bigger inside (or at least feels so). The external dimensions (if changed at all) are similar enough that it is no less widely along typical English roads.
(2) The 2.7 engine is a bloody peach! I am not sure whether I prefer it to the 3.4, but I certainly wouldn't call it a clear second. It is very happy to rev above 4000rpm; it feels a bit zingier than the 3.4 at high revs. On the downside (if it is a downside), it has almost nothing low down the rev range and only really feels fast when you are 'on it' - the rest of the time, it pulls well enough but shows no signs of being quick.
If you want a car that feels quick at 3-4000 revs, look elsewhere! But it's a lovely engine.
(3) Handling - it is massively overtyred on 19s. The torque to grip ratio is silly. One big problem - the steering is a huge step backwards from the 987. No steering feel at all beyond a bit of patter. It's a huge loss, in my view. Otherwise, it handles very nicely and suffers little from being an open top.
(4) Ride. Pretty much identical to my 987. Aside from there being a bit more flex and it feeling a touch less 'tied down' (which I assume is just because it's an open car, rather than the platform changes), it is hard to distinguish from my daily. Perhaps a little bit softer and absorbs small bumps better, but a far smaller difference than I was expecting.
(5) Brakes. Contrary to what I have read on here, I don't find them over-assisted or Audi-like. The level of assistance is fine (even though I do prefer a bit more firmness). The problem is, as with the steeering, a loss of feel. The brakes are nice and progressive still, but the pedal didn't tell me much. The brakes in my 987 somehow feel more 'mechanical' , if that makes sense.
(6) Gearchange and clutch. Very nice. Box is fairly short throw and mechanical-feeling. Clutch is fine (if perhaps slightly soft). I drive a PDK so cannot compare it directly, but it's a pleasure to use.
(7) Gearing. It's bonkers, but we all know that. The upside in the 2.7 is that it just means you have to keep it in 2nd and make the engine sing. 3rd is barely an accelerating gear anywhere but the motorway, and 4,5 and 6 are all cruising gears.
After my first long drive in a 981, I can say two big things. First, it is nowhere near as different from the 987 as people make out - it isn't now just like an Audi; it is fundamentally a very similar drive. Secondly, it is not, in my view, a step forward: the loss of steering feel is fatal for me, and it is otherwise extremely similar to drive.
Oh yeah, it has nice stuff like sat nav (which worked fine) and cruise control (quite a good one) that my car doesn't. But I wouldn't pay a penny more for that stuff in a sports car. If it's free, great; but it's not going to make me love the car. The interior feels slightly lower quality than the 987, but it is certainly more modern and a bit more 'bling'. The boggo steering wheel looks horridly cheap compared to the multi whatsit one in my car.
I really like it. I shall reserve my final view until I have driven it for a few hundred miles (rather than about 70 or so, albeit a mix of town, A road and a bit of motorway so quite a good opportunity to test it).
My impressions:-
(1) It is noticeably bigger inside (or at least feels so). The external dimensions (if changed at all) are similar enough that it is no less widely along typical English roads.
(2) The 2.7 engine is a bloody peach! I am not sure whether I prefer it to the 3.4, but I certainly wouldn't call it a clear second. It is very happy to rev above 4000rpm; it feels a bit zingier than the 3.4 at high revs. On the downside (if it is a downside), it has almost nothing low down the rev range and only really feels fast when you are 'on it' - the rest of the time, it pulls well enough but shows no signs of being quick.
If you want a car that feels quick at 3-4000 revs, look elsewhere! But it's a lovely engine.
(3) Handling - it is massively overtyred on 19s. The torque to grip ratio is silly. One big problem - the steering is a huge step backwards from the 987. No steering feel at all beyond a bit of patter. It's a huge loss, in my view. Otherwise, it handles very nicely and suffers little from being an open top.
(4) Ride. Pretty much identical to my 987. Aside from there being a bit more flex and it feeling a touch less 'tied down' (which I assume is just because it's an open car, rather than the platform changes), it is hard to distinguish from my daily. Perhaps a little bit softer and absorbs small bumps better, but a far smaller difference than I was expecting.
(5) Brakes. Contrary to what I have read on here, I don't find them over-assisted or Audi-like. The level of assistance is fine (even though I do prefer a bit more firmness). The problem is, as with the steeering, a loss of feel. The brakes are nice and progressive still, but the pedal didn't tell me much. The brakes in my 987 somehow feel more 'mechanical' , if that makes sense.
(6) Gearchange and clutch. Very nice. Box is fairly short throw and mechanical-feeling. Clutch is fine (if perhaps slightly soft). I drive a PDK so cannot compare it directly, but it's a pleasure to use.
(7) Gearing. It's bonkers, but we all know that. The upside in the 2.7 is that it just means you have to keep it in 2nd and make the engine sing. 3rd is barely an accelerating gear anywhere but the motorway, and 4,5 and 6 are all cruising gears.
After my first long drive in a 981, I can say two big things. First, it is nowhere near as different from the 987 as people make out - it isn't now just like an Audi; it is fundamentally a very similar drive. Secondly, it is not, in my view, a step forward: the loss of steering feel is fatal for me, and it is otherwise extremely similar to drive.
Oh yeah, it has nice stuff like sat nav (which worked fine) and cruise control (quite a good one) that my car doesn't. But I wouldn't pay a penny more for that stuff in a sports car. If it's free, great; but it's not going to make me love the car. The interior feels slightly lower quality than the 987, but it is certainly more modern and a bit more 'bling'. The boggo steering wheel looks horridly cheap compared to the multi whatsit one in my car.
I often have a trip out to my nearest OPC in my 987 s and have a nose around the 981's. Just can't get excited about them, the bigger body and wheels seems pointless and the often talked about steering feel and long gearing issues just puts me off more. Would be nice if a 981 owner would put there case for it being a better sports car but usually it seems the comments are more about looks and how the cabin quality is better!
PR36 said:
I often have a trip out to my nearest OPC in my 987 s and have a nose around the 981's. Just can't get excited about them, the bigger body and wheels seems pointless and the often talked about steering feel and long gearing issues just puts me off more. Would be nice if a 981 owner would put there case for it being a better sports car but usually it seems the comments are more about looks and how the cabin quality is better!
The cabin is more modern and impressive to the typical car buyer - e.g. my youngest brother loved it (because he loves all the tech and bling). But I cannot see the argument that it is better quality - the leather definitely looks and feels thinner, and the plastics are no better (and in some places worse). I think it is a toss up as to whether the 987 cabin was better than the 986, too - the older interiors are simpler, more basic, but also solid and more "sporting".I think I understated how nice the box is. It's a really good unit. The gear ratios are utterly insane, and I now know what that guy meant about keeping up in traffic - I drove in to Central London in the 981 today, and it really does need revving just to pootle about!
I have just come from a supercharged GT86 to an ex-demo 981 2.7 PDK. I have in the past had SL350 and SLK55AMG. I had considered such cars as RS3, S3 etc etc but they would just be a re-incarnation of my wifes last car (A3 2.0T FSI petrol) and I would soon get bored. Had never driven a Porsche or been in a Porsche dealer before. The test drive sold it for me, the 981 for me ticks all the boxes. I have 20" wheels, full electric leather heated seats etc. The ride is firm but comfortable, the cabin is quiet and better than a Merc. It`s a nice place to be. You can cruise around in comfort or play silly ar$e on the many great Sussex "B" roads near me. For me it is a great multi purpose car. Perhaps I am the type of customer they are now aiming for ? If you want to experience cheap interior drive a GT86 for 2.5 years. I threw loads of money at it (supercharger, coil overs, body kit etc) but at the end of the day it was still a Toyota and the interior really cheesed me off.
PorscheGT4 said:
yes ideal buyer ;-)
the issue all us 987.2 owners have is the new car does not feel like a true sports car, imo the 987.2 did give you that feeling you were in a sports car.
it's that simple.
Don't fool yourself. As a past owner of 987/1 (two Boxster S) a 987/2 (CaymanS PDK) and a 997/2 Carrera S PDK I can assure you the 981 is every inch as good if not better sports car than the models that preceded it. There is a lot of nonsense spoken about the electric steering, it is 98% as good as the hydraulic system. After a few miles I would defy anyone to tell the difference. The body of both 981's (Boxster and Cayman) is more rigid than the past models making the handling as precise whilst being able to make the ride more compliant. It's faster, more economical, better built, better looking ( a matter of personal taste of course) but a more masculine style....every aspect of the car - with the exception of the steering - is an improvement - and more of an improvement than 987 / 997 were over the previous 986 / 996, as 987 / 997 were heavily revised versions of the earlier car. 981 / 991 is all new from the ground up, and benefitted from a huge R&D investment that Porsche simply could not afford when 986, 996, 987 and 997 were produced.the issue all us 987.2 owners have is the new car does not feel like a true sports car, imo the 987.2 did give you that feeling you were in a sports car.
it's that simple.
Edited by dreamcar on Thursday 28th May 11:34
I'm currently in a 981 Boxster loaner while my 981 Cayman S is in for warranty work for the 4th time.
The Boxster is on 18's and I have 20's on mine so the ride is a bit more comfortable but I never thought my Cayman S was uncomfortable, I think the trade off for the better looks of the bigger wheels is worthwhile.
Driving on the same Surrey roads on my work commute I can defo feel a slight shimmy through the steering wheel, my loose fitting watch jiggles a bit and it doesn't in the Cayman, otherwise it feels admirably stiff.
I find the 2.7 fine, it sounds great with the roof down, I imagine it would sound epic with PSE. PDK shifts are so quick that you are never really caught out in the wrong gear, just let it rev. It would annoy me just knowing the latest breed of hot hatches seriously outgun it though.
The biggest difference I've noticed is that I feel very exposed with the roof down, I don't really want people at traffic lights to see my bottle of Diet Coke or judge me by the sunnies I'm wearing. I guess you would get used to it after a while.
The Boxster is on 18's and I have 20's on mine so the ride is a bit more comfortable but I never thought my Cayman S was uncomfortable, I think the trade off for the better looks of the bigger wheels is worthwhile.
Driving on the same Surrey roads on my work commute I can defo feel a slight shimmy through the steering wheel, my loose fitting watch jiggles a bit and it doesn't in the Cayman, otherwise it feels admirably stiff.
I find the 2.7 fine, it sounds great with the roof down, I imagine it would sound epic with PSE. PDK shifts are so quick that you are never really caught out in the wrong gear, just let it rev. It would annoy me just knowing the latest breed of hot hatches seriously outgun it though.
The biggest difference I've noticed is that I feel very exposed with the roof down, I don't really want people at traffic lights to see my bottle of Diet Coke or judge me by the sunnies I'm wearing. I guess you would get used to it after a while.
dreamcar said:
Don't fool yourself. As a past owner of 987/1 (two Boxster S) a 987/2 (CaymanS PDK) and a 997/2 Carrera S PDK I can assure you the 981 is every inch as good if not better sports car than the models that preceded it. There is a lot of nonsense spoken about the electric steering, it is 98% as good as the hydraulic system. After a few miles I would defy anyone to tell the difference. The body of both 981's (Boxster and Cayman) is more rigid than the past models making the handling as precise whilst being able to make the ride more compliant. It's faster, more economical, better built, better looking ( a matter of personal taste of course) but a more masculine style....every aspect of the car - with the exception of the steering - is an improvement - and more of an improvement than 987 / 997 were over the previous 986 / 996, as 987 / 997 were heavily revised versions of the earlier car. 981 / 991 is all new from the ground up, and benefitted from a huge R&D investment that Porsche simply could not afford when 986, 996, 987 and 997 were produced.
The steering is a notable step down in turns of feel. I would say that it is the biggest single difference between the cars - the 987's steering is hardly the most feelsome set up in the World, but it is good enough; the 981 EPAS is closer to BMW than Porsche steering - nice and accurate but without any feel beyond patter. I defy anyone to have a clue from the wheel what the road surface or front end grip is like.Edited by dreamcar on Thursday 28th May 11:34
Rigidity is a marketing thing, primarily, as the 987 was hardly soft. Unless you are at 140mph, the difference is barely perceptible, if at all. And the engines are as near as can be to identical - just tweaked. There is, what, about 10bhp difference from the 987.2 to the 981?
As I said, it surprised me how similar the 981 is to the 987.2. Aside from the facts that it is roomier and has less steering feel, the differences are either subjective (looks) or minor (performance being better and brakes being a little worse).
Having driven the Boxster again this morning, the 2.7 feels slower in normal driving than it does on a fastish drive - it suffers a lot from feeling underpowered at low revs.
ORD said:
Rigidity is a marketing thing, primarily, as the 987 was hardly soft. Unless you are at 140mph, the difference is barely perceptible, if at all. And the engines are as near as can be to identical - just tweaked. There is, what, about 10bhp difference from the 987.2 to the 981? .
Disagree with you about rigidity, it's not at V-max where you notice the improvement in rigidity, it's when driving even quite moderately down a challenging but uneven road, in the 981 Boxster there is noticeably less body "flex" than existed in 987 - as much as anything with the roof up there is a noticeably less squeaking between the top and screen rail as the body moves and the car does feel more secure and precise. This alone more than makes up for any steering deficiency. And having had modern BMW's the 981 steering feel and precision is far superior. Downsides comparing 987 and 981 Boxster? Little details, I miss the handy little storeage box on the bulkhead behind the seats, I think there is more buffeting from the wind at speed, and I suspect the rear boot is not quite as deep (fwd - aft) as the 987's was. Need to try to see if two aircraft size cabin bags fit, they did in 987 not convinced they will in 981.
Edited by dreamcar on Thursday 28th May 15:00
dreamcar said:
Don't fool yourself. As a past owner of 987/1 (two Boxster S) a 987/2 (CaymanS PDK) and a 997/2 Carrera S PDK I can assure you the 981 is every inch as good if not better sports car than the models that preceded it. There is a lot of nonsense spoken about the electric steering, it is 98% as good as the hydraulic system.
why would I buy something only 98% as good when I have 100% as is ?If you like it that's great, I hate it, my Ford has better steering feel than a 981.
PorscheGT4 said:
why would I buy something only 98% as good when I have 100% as is ?
If you like it that's great, I hate it, my Ford has better steering feel than a 981.
Only the steering is 98% as good. All the other improvements far outweigh that. Your Ford has better steering than a 981? Only if it is a GT40.If you like it that's great, I hate it, my Ford has better steering feel than a 981.
dreamcar said:
Only the steering is 98% as good. All the other improvements far outweigh that. Your Ford has better steering than a 981? Only if it is a GT40.
you like it I don't, you own what you like , I own what I like :-) every ones happy, I don't see any other improvments either, quite a few things are not as nice inc the shape/lines even LONGER gearing, 20" wheels etc etc the list goes on.But serious my Ford does have more feel esp central feel than a 981 sorry to say.
PorscheGT4 said:
you like it I don't, you own what you like , I own what I like :-) every ones happy, I don't see any other improvments either, quite a few things are not as nice inc the shape/lines even LONGER gearing, 20" wheels etc etc the list goes on.
But serious my Ford does have more feel esp central feel than a 981 sorry to say.
Yeah, whatever if that's what you want to believe.....But serious my Ford does have more feel esp central feel than a 981 sorry to say.
PorscheGT4 said:
But serious my Ford does have more feel esp central feel than a 981 sorry to say.
I'm sorry to have to agree with you about the 981 steering. Can't speak for your Ford, but it's definitely better on my wife's Suzuki Swift Sport. That said it does depend on the wheel/tyre combination. I have 19" and Pzeros and feel is disappointing, definitely better on 18s with Goodyear Eagles and much the same as the 19s on a couple of 20" shod cars I've driven (I foolishly forgot to check the tyre make). It's also noticeably better (but not great) with the 19s when PASM is set to Sport.How big an issue it is, is very personal. As an ex Elise owner it's probably the most disappointing thing about the car for me (perhaps apart for the bloody handbrake).
bcr5784 said:
I'm sorry to have to agree with you about the 981 steering. Can't speak for your Ford, but it's definitely better on my wife's Suzuki Swift Sport. That said it does depend on the wheel/tyre combination. I have 19" and Pzeros and feel is disappointing, definitely better on 18s with Goodyear Eagles and much the same as the 19s on a couple of 20" shod cars I've driven (I foolishly forgot to check the tyre make). It's also noticeably better (but not great) with the 19s when PASM is set to Sport.
How big an issue it is, is very personal. As an ex Elise owner it's probably the most disappointing thing about the car for me (perhaps apart for the bloody handbrake).
yes as I stated, like us both past Elise owners the 981 steering is unforgivable. but from a Merc owner it might be just fine.How big an issue it is, is very personal. As an ex Elise owner it's probably the most disappointing thing about the car for me (perhaps apart for the bloody handbrake).
PorscheGT4 said:
But serious my Ford does have more feel esp central feel than a 981 sorry to say.
Why are you sorry to say? Don't be sorry....you are happy with what you have...you only need to be sorry for yourself if you've been stupid enough to order an 981 with steering you clearly hate.But you wouldn't do that now.,,,,would you?
FrankCayman said:
Why are you sorry to say? Don't be sorry....you are happy with what you have...you only need to be sorry for yourself if you've been stupid enough to order an 981 with steering you clearly hate.
But you wouldn't do that now.,,,,would you?
nope only after the motorsport dept have fixed it :-pBut you wouldn't do that now.,,,,would you?
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