Rev Matching Blips on Downshift.
Discussion
V8KSN said:
You have changed your tune somewhat! 
You once said that PDK owners/drivers were lame because they cant concentrate on braking, changing down a gear and turning the wheel at the same time! Now its become clear that your hallowed GT4 has an auto-blip function its the best thing since sliced bread!
As for the track...If you are wanting the fastest lap times then get a PDK.
If you want to be as fast as you can while controlling the gearbox, get a manual and learn how to heel and toe yourself.
IMO a manual gearbox with this auto-blip function is pointless! Why have it? Because you want to be the fastest 'manual' driver on track?
AFter 2 laps I can turn auto blip off, PDK is PDK no tune changed, you cannot turn it off can you lol , I find PDK dull only using 1 leg and not my left arm, Auto blip is still using all my limbs to the max.You once said that PDK owners/drivers were lame because they cant concentrate on braking, changing down a gear and turning the wheel at the same time! Now its become clear that your hallowed GT4 has an auto-blip function its the best thing since sliced bread!
- If you like a manual gearbox, you like the interaction of having to manually blip the throttle to make a smooth mechanically-sympathetic shift. You know its not as quick as a PDK and you don't care.
- If you like a PDK gearbox you like the fact that the car can shift so quickly and seamlessly and you are willing to give up the 'heel-and-toe' technique as the car can do it so much better. Plus it's a lot faster and smoother and the car is more thrilling for you as a driver than a manual gearbox car.
As for the track...If you are wanting the fastest lap times then get a PDK.
If you want to be as fast as you can while controlling the gearbox, get a manual and learn how to heel and toe yourself.
IMO a manual gearbox with this auto-blip function is pointless! Why have it? Because you want to be the fastest 'manual' driver on track?
I enjoyed the 981 auto blip, maybe that's because the 5 laps before I was in a PDK dull as **** thing lol, and it was nice to get back into a manual again.
Only time will tell if it gets used, but imo it's a great feature and worked very well for the 5 laps I did with it.
I have always said at my level I could lap faster in a PDK car, it's not what I want. not hard to grasp imo.
Why does everyone use the term "blip" when describing rev-matching? Isnt a blip entirely the wrong way of doing it? It sounds "cool", but isn't the whole point to actually match the revs, rather than flaring up the tacho only to fall back down?
Perhaps I have missed something (a genuine statement - not being a nob).
Perhaps I have missed something (a genuine statement - not being a nob).
anonymous said:
[redacted]
There is nothing for me to understand. I just don't see everything in black and white as you do. I can see absolutely no difference to anyone being wedded to a crash box (when you could buy a road car with one) and decrying synchromesh as deskilling driving (as it does), than you taking the same attitude to heel and toe. Similar arguments apply to ABS - it's far more important/difficult to get your heel and toe right when you haven't got ABS to lean on. As people keep trying to tell you there is no right or wrong in this - just personal choice. And given that I have chosen PDK for MY car on the road and use a manual car with no ABS on the track, to suggest I don't "understand" is simply nonsense.anonymous said:
[redacted]
I will try one last time. What I ACTUALLY said was that IF the autoblipper was invented donkeys years ago then no one would have seen the need to invent the heel and toe technique. (And indeed IF synchromesh had existed before cars were developed then double declutching technique would never have been used). They are, as I put it, both the result of the chronology (order of development) of the driving aids (autoblip and synchromesh). Given that both are accidents of history - I see no reason to be unreasonably attached to either - though I enjoy both.And religious fervour? If your defense of the manual gearbox isn't akin to religious fervour, I'm not sure what is.
I can see the sense of that, but it misses that there is quite an important difference between auto-blip and synchromesh.
Synchro got rid of something annoying but that didnt require the learning of a technical skill - double declutching is slow but not technically hard.
Auto-blip gets rid of the need for quite a delicate skill that, if you like that kind of thing, materially increases the sense of engagement and driving pleasure.
It's horses for courses in my view - I wouldn't object to auto-blip on an everyday car. It's a ball ache to have to rev-match into first around town, for example. But I wouldn't want it on a sports car - if I couldn't get the rev matching right, I would just work on the skill.
One point that might not apply to Porsches but does to a lot of modern cars - if the clutch has a huge delay and is slushy, the brakes are over-assisted and the throttle is binary, heel and toe is like hitting your head against a brick wall.
I would definitely choose a good auto over a bad manual, and the auto blip function probably makes bad manuals a bit more bearable. Also has a massive advantage over an auto of having a H pattern box rather than sequential gears - I absolutely hate approaching a roundabout in a PDK car: holding down a paddle and counting the gears is infinitely s
t compared to braking braking braking, slot 2nd and go!
Synchro got rid of something annoying but that didnt require the learning of a technical skill - double declutching is slow but not technically hard.
Auto-blip gets rid of the need for quite a delicate skill that, if you like that kind of thing, materially increases the sense of engagement and driving pleasure.
It's horses for courses in my view - I wouldn't object to auto-blip on an everyday car. It's a ball ache to have to rev-match into first around town, for example. But I wouldn't want it on a sports car - if I couldn't get the rev matching right, I would just work on the skill.
One point that might not apply to Porsches but does to a lot of modern cars - if the clutch has a huge delay and is slushy, the brakes are over-assisted and the throttle is binary, heel and toe is like hitting your head against a brick wall.
I would definitely choose a good auto over a bad manual, and the auto blip function probably makes bad manuals a bit more bearable. Also has a massive advantage over an auto of having a H pattern box rather than sequential gears - I absolutely hate approaching a roundabout in a PDK car: holding down a paddle and counting the gears is infinitely s
t compared to braking braking braking, slot 2nd and go!ORD said:
I can see the sense of that, but it misses that there is quite an important difference between auto-blip and synchromesh.
Synchro got rid of something annoying but that didnt require the learning of a technical skill - double declutching is slow but not technically hard.
Auto-blip gets rid of the need for quite a delicate skill that, if you like that kind of thing, materially increases the sense of engagement and driving pleasure.
It's horses for courses in my view - I wouldn't object to auto-blip on an everyday car. It's a ball ache to have to rev-match into first around town, for example. But I wouldn't want it on a sports car - if I couldn't get the rev matching right, I would just work on the skill.
One point that might not apply to Porsches but does to a lot of modern cars - if the clutch has a huge delay and is slushy, the brakes are over-assisted and the throttle is binary, heel and toe is like hitting your head against a brick wall.
I would definitely choose a good auto over a bad manual, and the auto blip function probably makes bad manuals a bit more bearable. Also has a massive advantage over an auto of having a H pattern box rather than sequential gears - I absolutely hate approaching a roundabout in a PDK car: holding down a paddle and counting the gears is infinitely st compared to braking braking braking, slot 2nd and go!
Not sure I'd agree with the bit about double declutching being easy - I don't know what cars you have driven with crash boxes - there weren't many around when even I was young - though quite a lot had a crash first gear. Most of mine was done on a BMW motor cycle - which in days of old had a gearbox which required every bit as much delicacy as heel and toe to get a smooth silent gearchange. I took great pleasure in making silent changes when police bikes went by sometimes clonking theirs - I had the same R90/6 bike (childish I know - but I was young). And slow? Yes a bit. But no slower than a manual box (when sympathetically used) is relative to PDK.Synchro got rid of something annoying but that didnt require the learning of a technical skill - double declutching is slow but not technically hard.
Auto-blip gets rid of the need for quite a delicate skill that, if you like that kind of thing, materially increases the sense of engagement and driving pleasure.
It's horses for courses in my view - I wouldn't object to auto-blip on an everyday car. It's a ball ache to have to rev-match into first around town, for example. But I wouldn't want it on a sports car - if I couldn't get the rev matching right, I would just work on the skill.
One point that might not apply to Porsches but does to a lot of modern cars - if the clutch has a huge delay and is slushy, the brakes are over-assisted and the throttle is binary, heel and toe is like hitting your head against a brick wall.
I would definitely choose a good auto over a bad manual, and the auto blip function probably makes bad manuals a bit more bearable. Also has a massive advantage over an auto of having a H pattern box rather than sequential gears - I absolutely hate approaching a roundabout in a PDK car: holding down a paddle and counting the gears is infinitely s
t compared to braking braking braking, slot 2nd and go!And sequential vs H. Well the normal racing technique is to go down through ALL the ratios when braking for a bend - you don't "block" shift - so sequential is much better there. Of course you don't NEED to do that on the road - but you don't NEED to heel and toe either. You COULD do as the police do and do your rev matching when you have finished braking (Slower I know - but you are not racing on the road).
On PDKs the gearing is still high and so if you are driving manually (and presumably sportingly) you only typically have to change down a couple of gears - and a couple of pulls on the lever is actually easier than a 4th to 2nd change on a manual box.
On the road it's just a matter of what gives you pleasure AS MOST OF US KEEP SAYING there are no rights and wrongs, just personal preference.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I said the EXISTENCE of H&T is a quirk of history which it is - NOT it's enjoyment.BUT!!!! are you ACTUALLY NOW saying that the choice of Manual or PDK is purely a matter of personal preference with no right or wrong - not a religious tenet?????? REALLY? I'd better sit down while I take that in.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think I've lost track here, can we take it from the top please? 
What I want to know which is much more important is why the subject of rev matching (plus HnT and DDC) always generates such enthusiastic debate? Just pop over the the Advanced Driving bit and see the endless streams of rhetoric on the subject there.
Bert
PS I happen to have some sympathy to the other chap's view about things we think of as inviolate pleasures being just a result of chronology.
bcr5784 said:
Not sure I'd agree with the bit about double declutching being easy - I don't know what cars you have driven with crash boxes - there weren't many around when even I was young - though quite a lot had a crash first gear. Most of mine was done on a BMW motor cycle - which in days of old had a gearbox which required every bit as much delicacy as heel and toe to get a smooth silent gearchange. I took great pleasure in making silent changes when police bikes went by sometimes clonking theirs - I had the same R90/6 bike (childish I know - but I was young). And slow? Yes a bit. But no slower than a manual box (when sympathetically used) is relative to PDK.
And sequential vs H. Well the normal racing technique is to go down through ALL the ratios when braking for a bend - you don't "block" shift - so sequential is much better there. Of course you don't NEED to do that on the road - but you don't NEED to heel and toe either. You COULD do as the police do and do your rev matching when you have finished braking (Slower I know - but you are not racing on the road).
On PDKs the gearing is still high and so if you are driving manually (and presumably sportingly) you only typically have to change down a couple of gears - and a couple of pulls on the lever is actually easier than a 4th to 2nd change on a manual box.
On the road it's just a matter of what gives you pleasure AS MOST OF US KEEP SAYING there are no rights and wrongs, just personal preference.
Unless you've been pootling along in 7th on a straight road and need to go down 5 bloody gears. An automated H pattern box would be so much better.And sequential vs H. Well the normal racing technique is to go down through ALL the ratios when braking for a bend - you don't "block" shift - so sequential is much better there. Of course you don't NEED to do that on the road - but you don't NEED to heel and toe either. You COULD do as the police do and do your rev matching when you have finished braking (Slower I know - but you are not racing on the road).
On PDKs the gearing is still high and so if you are driving manually (and presumably sportingly) you only typically have to change down a couple of gears - and a couple of pulls on the lever is actually easier than a 4th to 2nd change on a manual box.
On the road it's just a matter of what gives you pleasure AS MOST OF US KEEP SAYING there are no rights and wrongs, just personal preference.
ORD said:
Unless you've been pootling along in 7th on a straight road and need to go down 5 bloody gears. An automated H pattern box would be so much better.
If I'm pootling I'd let the auto take the strain - but IF I happen to be in manual - AND pootling - the box will still prevent me letting the engine labour. So, if I'm (say) approaching a roundabout it will change down to second or first as I enter the roundabout anyway without any action from me. It's a feature I quite often use when I'm pootling. In all normal circumstances either I am in complete control over the gear I'm in or I'm happy to let the box take the strain. You really never need to go down 5 "bloody" gears manually - unless you want to. To be fair you do need to understand what the box will do unaided - but that is hardly a criticism, most of it is in the manual.bcr5784 said:
If I'm pootling I'd let the auto take the strain - but IF I happen to be in manual - AND pootling - the box will still prevent me letting the engine labour. So, if I'm (say) approaching a roundabout it will change down to second or first as I enter the roundabout anyway without any action from me. It's a feature I quite often use when I'm pootling. In all normal circumstances either I am in complete control over the gear I'm in or I'm happy to let the box take the strain. You really never need to go down 5 "bloody" gears manually - unless you want to. To be fair you do need to understand what the box will do unaided - but that is hardly a criticism, most of it is in the manual.
Are you being deliberately obtuse and patronising? I have been driving the car for quite a while now and there is nothing I don't know about how PDK works.I never use it in auto because the ECU is stupid. It 'learns' in a really crude way and tries to force you into a caricature of your driving style.
In the circumstance you describe, the box would (even in manual mode) select a lower gear, but it would select one that would give you about 1500 revs as you go around the roundabout. It reverts to 'granny driving' whenever it can. I have had this argument 5 or 6 times, but in my view PDK emphatically does allow you to labour the engine; in fact, it loves to labour the engine in auto mode. Catch it in a high gear, apply gentle throttle and it will labour pretty badly rather than dropping a gear.
ORD said:
Are you being deliberately obtuse and patronising? I have been driving the car for quite a while now and there is nothing I don't know about how PDK works.
I never use it in auto because the ECU is stupid. It 'learns' in a really crude way and tries to force you into a caricature of your driving style.
In the circumstance you describe, the box would (even in manual mode) select a lower gear, but it would select one that would give you about 1500 revs as you go around the roundabout. It reverts to 'granny driving' whenever it can. I have had this argument 5 or 6 times, but in my view PDK emphatically does allow you to labour the engine; in fact, it loves to labour the engine in auto mode. Catch it in a high gear, apply gentle throttle and it will labour pretty badly rather than dropping a gear.
Certainly not trying to be patronising - just explaining how I drive it. I'd agree that, left to its own devices, it uses lower revs than I would naturally use. But that is common to ANY (manual) car I have driven with an upchange indicator - it always suggests an upchange before I would naturally do it. Have all manufacturers got it wrong? I don't know - but since I can override/anticipate it - it really doesn't cause me an issue.I never use it in auto because the ECU is stupid. It 'learns' in a really crude way and tries to force you into a caricature of your driving style.
In the circumstance you describe, the box would (even in manual mode) select a lower gear, but it would select one that would give you about 1500 revs as you go around the roundabout. It reverts to 'granny driving' whenever it can. I have had this argument 5 or 6 times, but in my view PDK emphatically does allow you to labour the engine; in fact, it loves to labour the engine in auto mode. Catch it in a high gear, apply gentle throttle and it will labour pretty badly rather than dropping a gear.
And yes - the algorithm certainly gets "over excited" when you start driving sportingly - which I have mentioned in earlier posts.
My view is
Is PDK better at choosing the right gear than me - Answer No!
Is it better at changing gear than me - Answer Yes!
So I decide and let IT change - and use its "foibles" where it helps.
Edited by bcr5784 on Wednesday 17th June 21:00
bcr5784 said:
But that is common to ANY (manual) car I have driven with an upchange indicator - it always suggests an upchange before I would naturally do it. Have all manufacturers got it wrong?
Please tell me you are joking here? Do you know whats going on in the car industry currently?Surely, you know what is at the root of all this?
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