Rev Matching Blips on Downshift.

Rev Matching Blips on Downshift.

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Discussion

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Wednesday 17th June 2015
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mollytherocker said:
Please tell me you are joking here? Do you know whats going on in the car industry currently?

Surely, you know what is at the root of all this?
Course I do - economy/emissions - but the suggestion was that this was damaging to the engine (allowing it to labour). Is it damaging? Frankly I don't know - do you? Given that whatever an upchange indicator may or may not do has no effect whatsoever on official economy figures, why would a manufacturer suggest drivers do something that might damage (cause a warranty claim?) to their cars?


Edited by bcr5784 on Wednesday 17th June 21:11

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Wednesday 17th June 2015
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
mollytherocker said:
Please tell me you are joking here? Do you know whats going on in the car industry currently?

Surely, you know what is at the root of all this?
Course I do - economy/emissions - but the suggestion was that this was damaging to the engine (allowing it to labour). Is it damaging? Frankly I don't know - do you?
I don't mean to be patronising as its not in my nature, but you need to understand the bigger picture for Porsche, or indeed any other automotive brand. You may be surprised to learn that their strategy and direction may be compromised more than any of us can truly appreciate.

They are a business, and a bloody successful one at that, but they can only operate within the window of regulation and that makes them have to manage buyers expecations very cleverly.

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Wednesday 17th June 2015
quotequote all
mollytherocker said:
I don't mean to be patronising as its not in my nature, but you need to understand the bigger picture for Porsche, or indeed any other automotive brand. You may be surprised to learn that their strategy and direction may be compromised more than any of us can truly appreciate.

They are a business, and a bloody successful one at that, but they can only operate within the window of regulation and that makes them have to manage buyers expecations very cleverly.
So what are you trying to say - spit it out man!

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
So what are you trying to say - spit it out man!
The upchange indicators are probably programmed to match the shift points used for the official cycle test - so Porsche can say "At 35mph, the manual car is in 6th" and have the testing done on that basis.

I know what a labouring engine feels and sounds like, and the manual gear indicator and PDK both allow the engine to labour a lot.

I would be amazed if it is not damaging, especially as the main weaknesses of these engines manifest in low rev / high load situations (e.g. the Tip box used to shag engines by pulling off in 2nd). I don't allow my engine to spend much time below 2,000 revs, as it sounds a bit iffy below that and like it is labouring below about 1750 with any load at all (i.e. it is fine going downhill or with very minimal throttle, but I certainly wouldn't accelerate at all at those revs).

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
ORD said:
The upchange indicators are probably programmed to match the shift points used for the official cycle test - so Porsche can say "At 35mph, the manual car is in 6th" and have the testing done on that basis.

I know what a labouring engine feels and sounds like, and the manual gear indicator and PDK both allow the engine to labour a lot.

I would be amazed if it is not damaging, especially as the main weaknesses of these engines manifest in low rev / high load situations (e.g. the Tip box used to shag engines by pulling off in 2nd). I don't allow my engine to spend much time below 2,000 revs, as it sounds a bit iffy below that and like it is labouring below about 1750 with any load at all (i.e. it is fine going downhill or with very minimal throttle, but I certainly wouldn't accelerate at all at those revs).
I'm pretty sure that isn't the case regarding economy. As I understand it the testing cycle mandates the gears used at the various parts of the cycle - nothing to do with what the indicator might say. That's probably the main reason why the manual has such long gears. Obviously the auto is allowed to do its own thing - and uses higher gears as a result, and in the case of Porsche gets better official economy figures.

Regarding labouring - as I say it does use higher gears than I would, and I sometimes knock it down a gear as a result. But it sounds like your engine seems unhappier than mine at low revs. Mine sounds fine at 1500 revs (with the amount of throttle the auto will allow) even in 7th - and with fewer revs in lower gears. Mine does (or would if I let it) grumble briefly on occasion in 7th when the auto allows it to get down to 1200 rpm before knocking down to 6th. But all that said I've never spotted the upshift indicator telling me to shift up when to do so would cause the engine to labour (not that I take much notice of it - but I find it interesting to see what it "thinks" on occasion).

As I say it would be rather foolish of Porsche - particularly with their history - to advise you to do something that would might cause a warranty claim, but they may have got it wrong.


Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 18th June 13:38

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
I'm pretty sure that isn't the case regarding economy. As I understand it the testing cycle mandates the gears used at the various parts of the cycle - nothing to do with what the auto might do - which, in any case has, different gearing so wouldn't be a valid basis anyway. That's probably the main reason why the manual has such long gears. Obviously the auto is allowed to do its own thing - and uses higher gears as a result, and in the case of Porsche gets better official economy figures.

Regarding labouring - as I say it does use higher gears than I would, and I sometimes knock it down a gear as a result. But it sounds like your engine seems unhappier than mine at low revs. Mine sounds fine at 1500 revs (with the amount of throttle the auto will allow) even in 7th - and with fewer revs in lower gears. Mine does (or would if I let it) grumble briefly on occasion in 7th when the auto allows it to get down to 1200 rpm before knocking down to 6th. But all that said I've never spotted the upshift indicator telling me to shift up when to do so would cause the engine to labour (not that I take much notice of it - but I find it interesting to see what it "thinks" on occasion).

As I say it would be rather foolish of Porsche - particularly with their history - to advise you to do something that would might cause a warranty claim, but they may have got it wrong.
Labouring is unlikely to cause damage that manifests within the warranty period. It's more about repeated excessive wear, etc. As contrasted to that, Porsche has bright line CO2 obligations from on high. It's obvious which way that cookie crumbles.

Porsche couldnt care less about what happens 5 years down the line.

PorscheGT4

21,146 posts

264 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
I don't take any car below 2k revs it's just not nice for it.

labouring an engine is bad driving and very stressfull on the engine parts esp as you also might have very low oil pressure at those revs, so bye bye bearings etc

1.2k revs screw that!


bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
PorscheGT4 said:
I don't take any car below 2k revs it's just not nice for it.

labouring an engine is bad driving and very stressfull on the engine parts esp as you also might have very low oil pressure at those revs, so bye bye bearings etc

1.2k revs screw that!
I agree wholeheartedly that labouring is bad driving and as I said I choose to override the autos choices quite often, and use more revs than it would when driving manually

. But to suggests 2000 as a blanket limit is simplistic - many modern turbos (petrols that is - all diesels do) develop peak torque from below 2000, which would be crackers if that caused the engine to labour. In any case an auto (unlike a manual) limits the throttle you can apply at low revs - the question is whether it limits it enough.

Oil pressure isn't low at those revs on my Porsche - check on your display (and if it is on yours get it fixed!) It uses an electric pump so revs shouldn't enter into it.

Engines can be made to run smoothly at almost any revs - in days of yore some engines would pull quite happily down to a 1000 rpm or less. It's just a matter of designing it to do so. Given the current focus on economy there is doubtless a great deal of design focus on making engines run well at low revs - and any car with a gear change indicator will have you using less than 2000 revs frequently in gentle driving. Porsche may of may not have got it wrong - but I don't think ALL car manufacturers have.


Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 18th June 14:56

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
ORD said:
Porsche couldnt care less about what happens 5 years down the line.
I am ( I thought) as cynical as anyone about Porsche's customer care - but I would have thought that self interest would have made them care - or at be concerned about possible consequences of another bore scoring or IMS type event. Porsche's reputation is significantly based upon the perception that, unlike Ferrari, Lotus, Maserati etc they make durable everyday drivers. Lose that reputation and they would be in real trouble.

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
I am ( I thought) as cynical as anyone about Porsche's customer care - but I would have thought that self interest would have made them care - or at be concerned about possible consequences of another bore scoring or IMS type event. Porsche's reputation is significantly based upon the perception that, unlike Ferrari, Lotus, Maserati etc they make durable everyday drivers. Lose that reputation and they would be in real trouble.
It didnt stop them making the troublesome M96/97 engine for 10 years! They could have fixed it properly at any point.

They chose not to.

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
mollytherocker said:
bcr5784 said:
I am ( I thought) as cynical as anyone about Porsche's customer care - but I would have thought that self interest would have made them care - or at be concerned about possible consequences of another bore scoring or IMS type event. Porsche's reputation is significantly based upon the perception that, unlike Ferrari, Lotus, Maserati etc they make durable everyday drivers. Lose that reputation and they would be in real trouble.
It didnt stop them making the troublesome M96/97 engine for 10 years! They could have fixed it properly at any point.

They chose not to.
The long-term reliability of a current Porsche (or indeed any current premium car) is way, way, way down the list of priorities. Look at all the highly complex and fairly highly stressed engines kicking about - a recipe for repairs that will exceed the value of the car within a few years.

The fairly high-profile (for these things) problems with the 996/997 barely registered at all with the general public. The Times is hardly going to run a front page saying "Porsches turn out to be a bit unreliable after 5 years".

Porsche will also think "In 5 or 10 years time, the reliability of the next gen of powerplants will be irrelevant because there will be a whole new wave of tech". Porsche will not be making 4 cyl turbos in 2025.

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
ORD said:
The long-term reliability of a current Porsche (or indeed any current premium car) is way, way, way down the list of priorities. Look at all the highly complex and fairly highly stressed engines kicking about - a recipe for repairs that will exceed the value of the car within a few years.

The fairly high-profile (for these things) problems with the 996/997 barely registered at all with the general public. The Times is hardly going to run a front page saying "Porsches turn out to be a bit unreliable after 5 years".

Porsche will also think "In 5 or 10 years time, the reliability of the next gen of powerplants will be irrelevant because there will be a whole new wave of tech". Porsche will not be making 4 cyl turbos in 2025.
In the short term you may well be right - but it has taken Jaguar a long time (20 + years?) to recover its brand image after producing (and then crucifying) what was arguably the most iconic sportscar of its era - the E-Type - because of their insensitivity to reliability issues. We will see....

cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
philnotts said:
Hello.

Just to confirm, as long as i have Sports Chrono, the rev matching blips on downshift will happen in the 2.7, 3.4 and GTS manual Cayman?

Thanks,
Phil
Yes, but the real point is that if you have PDK you will only use Sport Plus if you take the car on track. Otherwise the car is undriveable because it is always at max rpm in the lowest available gear. If on the other hand you have a manual, you can use Sport Plus all the time. I have driven a new Boxster GTS manual which has, obviously, Sport Plus, and it is a superb, intuitive experience. Another reason to go manual.

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
Yes, but the real point is that if you have PDK you will only use Sport Plus if you take the car on track. Otherwise the car is undriveable because it is always at max rpm in the lowest available gear. If on the other hand you have a manual, you can use Sport Plus all the time. I have driven a new Boxster GTS manual which has, obviously, Sport Plus, and it is a superb, intuitive experience. Another reason to go manual.
Not sure why that is an argument against PDK. Sure it's an argument against the use of PDK and Sport+ except on the track - but you can use Sport or Normal or manual with PDK.

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
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No idea what you're on about. Sports + in a manual does the square root of fk all!

Trotmant

385 posts

113 months

Thursday 18th June 2015
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bcr5784 said:
cardigankid said:
Yes, but the real point is that if you have PDK you will only use Sport Plus if you take the car on track. Otherwise the car is undriveable because it is always at max rpm in the lowest available gear. If on the other hand you have a manual, you can use Sport Plus all the time. I have driven a new Boxster GTS manual which has, obviously, Sport Plus, and it is a superb, intuitive experience. Another reason to go manual.
Not sure why that is an argument against PDK. Sure it's an argument against the use of PDK and Sport+ except on the track - but you can use Sport or Normal or manual with PDK.
This is nonsense. I drive my gts in pdk manual with sport plus on EVERY time I drive the car. I like the additional punch of the gears and enjoy not having to use a clutch and get lighting shifts perfectly timed every time. There is no relationship between only using sport plus on the track.. Granted if you only drive the car in auto it will do as you have described, but unless I'm in London traffic I never use auto mode. Much more fun pulling the paddles and controlling the Rev damage yourself.

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Friday 19th June 2015
quotequote all
Trotmant said:
This is nonsense. I drive my gts in pdk manual with sport plus on EVERY time I drive the car. I like the additional punch of the gears and enjoy not having to use a clutch and get lighting shifts perfectly timed every time. There is no relationship between only using sport plus on the track.. Granted if you only drive the car in auto it will do as you have described, but unless I'm in London traffic I never use auto mode. Much more fun pulling the paddles and controlling the Rev damage yourself.
He was talking about auto. Personally I'm not keen on Sport let alone Sport + in manual - the over-exaggerated blips on down changes are a bit too boy-racer for me.

Trotmant

385 posts

113 months

Friday 19th June 2015
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bcr5784 said:


Personally I'm not keen on Sport let alone Sport + in manual - the over-exaggerated blips on down changes are a bit too boy-racer for me.
This is exactly why I love it beer

Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

245 months

Friday 19th June 2015
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Does anyone know of an aftermarket conversion which will equip my OH with rev-matching?

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Friday 19th June 2015
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Ozzie Osmond said:
Does anyone know of an aftermarket conversion which will equip my OH with rev-matching?
laugh

You are joking, right?