Admission of negligence
Discussion
b2hbm said:
sebulban said:
So you can't get life for "attempted" murder?
But they didn't attempt to murder you, did they ? 
If you stand back and look at it - you've had a very serious problem with your car and quite understandably you're upset. The OPC has said "it's our fault" and has tried to put you back in the position you expected to be in 6 weeks ago with new tyres and presumably correct geometry.
That's annoying and I can see why you feel you're entitled to compensation but the facts are that you've already had what's fair. You might get a goodwill gesture, eg a free service or valet, but they really don't have to.
Should you take it to court you can bet that the Porsche legal team will say their admission was made as a gesture of goodwill but that you'd taken the car away for 6 weeks and who knows what had happened in that time ? You could have kerbed it or got someone else to mess with the geometry (can you prove you haven't ?).
Or as another poster has said, you didn't check the car before you drive because even a weekly check would have shown something was going wrong. And as the driver it's your responsibility, not Porsche's. A week you might get away with, but 6 weeks ?
Your legal advice might be upbeat but I think you'd lose on hard facts. If Porsche want to play hardball then they'll bring up sufficient doubt to make you look equally responsible for driving the car on public highways with illegal tyres.
Despite the tone of this post, I'm not knocking you or an OPC fanboy. But in your place I would play nice. People (even OPC's are "people") are more likely to co-operate with someone they like or feel they have wronged rather than people threatening them. And a free service or even just "being owed" is worth having.....
Edited by b2hbm on Thursday 20th August 06:34
A hopefully uncontentious statement: we all make mistakes, every day.
A few things follow from this, IMHO. When something goes wrong in my life, I try to look first at what I could have done better. I try to support others involved so they feel free to speak up about what I could have done better and what they as individuals could have done better. I expect everybody to learn from the lessons and work together to put things right.
This (at least on paper) is a common approach in industries where risk management is a key skill (like the one in which I work), either because there is a lot of money at risk when things go wrong, or a risk to life, or both. Like all of these sorts of things, it is easier said than done, but when it works well, it is a culture where people are open about their mistakes, so that everyone can learn from them, everyone can help put them right and people feel supported by each other, which results in more eyes on new situations and fewer new mistakes.
So, if I had been in this situation, I'd be thinking about what I could have done better and look to do that going forward. Check the tyres before driving (not just for (abnormal) wear, but also a slow puncture, or sidewall damage, or vandalism, etc). Pay attention to the PSM light and slow down and stop if it comes on unexpectedly. Learn a bit more about the handling characteristics of the car so that it is obvious when it's set up wrong. Do a car control course so that, if the tyre failure results in a loss of stability, skills are in place to manage it.
So it is not about being an OPC fanboy. I have bought cars from and/ or had them serviced by many different OPCs over the years. Yes, I have found one that I like and a use them exclusively now for several things, which makes sense for me for several reasons. But as it happens, I get the geometry done on all my cars at a suspension specialist and my tyres from a tyre specialist. Why? Because if all you do all day is fit tyres or do suspension geo you get very good at it. Getting these things done right can absolutely transform a car and looking for the perfect geometry for the track or the road is one of the things that brings me a lot of satisfaction in my cars.
I see yesterday you also mentioned the centre involved when you quoted your lawyer's response (notice that a moderator called jermeyc has edited out their name from your post and from the repost of the person who quoted you). I think it might also be worth asking how that will influence their reaction to this situation. I'd have a look back through here and make sure you'll be comfortable when THEIR lawyer reads your posts.
A few things follow from this, IMHO. When something goes wrong in my life, I try to look first at what I could have done better. I try to support others involved so they feel free to speak up about what I could have done better and what they as individuals could have done better. I expect everybody to learn from the lessons and work together to put things right.
This (at least on paper) is a common approach in industries where risk management is a key skill (like the one in which I work), either because there is a lot of money at risk when things go wrong, or a risk to life, or both. Like all of these sorts of things, it is easier said than done, but when it works well, it is a culture where people are open about their mistakes, so that everyone can learn from them, everyone can help put them right and people feel supported by each other, which results in more eyes on new situations and fewer new mistakes.
So, if I had been in this situation, I'd be thinking about what I could have done better and look to do that going forward. Check the tyres before driving (not just for (abnormal) wear, but also a slow puncture, or sidewall damage, or vandalism, etc). Pay attention to the PSM light and slow down and stop if it comes on unexpectedly. Learn a bit more about the handling characteristics of the car so that it is obvious when it's set up wrong. Do a car control course so that, if the tyre failure results in a loss of stability, skills are in place to manage it.
So it is not about being an OPC fanboy. I have bought cars from and/ or had them serviced by many different OPCs over the years. Yes, I have found one that I like and a use them exclusively now for several things, which makes sense for me for several reasons. But as it happens, I get the geometry done on all my cars at a suspension specialist and my tyres from a tyre specialist. Why? Because if all you do all day is fit tyres or do suspension geo you get very good at it. Getting these things done right can absolutely transform a car and looking for the perfect geometry for the track or the road is one of the things that brings me a lot of satisfaction in my cars.
I see yesterday you also mentioned the centre involved when you quoted your lawyer's response (notice that a moderator called jermeyc has edited out their name from your post and from the repost of the person who quoted you). I think it might also be worth asking how that will influence their reaction to this situation. I'd have a look back through here and make sure you'll be comfortable when THEIR lawyer reads your posts.
Oso said:
A hopefully uncontentious statement: we all make mistakes, every day.
A few things follow from this, IMHO. When something goes wrong in my life, I try to look first at what I could have done better. I try to support others involved so they feel free to speak up about what I could have done better and what they as individuals could have done better. I expect everybody to learn from the lessons and work together to put things right.
This (at least on paper) is a common approach in industries where risk management is a key skill (like the one in which I work), either because there is a lot of money at risk when things go wrong, or a risk to life, or both. Like all of these sorts of things, it is easier said than done, but when it works well, it is a culture where people are open about their mistakes, so that everyone can learn from them, everyone can help put them right and people feel supported by each other, which results in more eyes on new situations and fewer new mistakes.
So, if I had been in this situation, I'd be thinking about what I could have done better and look to do that going forward. Check the tyres before driving (not just for (abnormal) wear, but also a slow puncture, or sidewall damage, or vandalism, etc). Pay attention to the PSM light and slow down and stop if it comes on unexpectedly. Learn a bit more about the handling characteristics of the car so that it is obvious when it's set up wrong. Do a car control course so that, if the tyre failure results in a loss of stability, skills are in place to manage it.
So it is not about being an OPC fanboy. I have bought cars from and/ or had them serviced by many different OPCs over the years. Yes, I have found one that I like and a use them exclusively now for several things, which makes sense for me for several reasons. But as it happens, I get the geometry done on all my cars at a suspension specialist and my tyres from a tyre specialist. Why? Because if all you do all day is fit tyres or do suspension geo you get very good at it. Getting these things done right can absolutely transform a car and looking for the perfect geometry for the track or the road is one of the things that brings me a lot of satisfaction in my cars.
I see yesterday you also mentioned the centre involved when you quoted your lawyer's response (notice that a moderator called jermeyc has edited out their name from your post and from the repost of the person who quoted you). I think it might also be worth asking how that will influence their reaction to this situation. I'd have a look back through here and make sure you'll be comfortable when THEIR lawyer reads your posts.
What's THEIR lawyer going to do lol?! OP or his loved ones could have been fatally injured in slightly different circumstances....A few things follow from this, IMHO. When something goes wrong in my life, I try to look first at what I could have done better. I try to support others involved so they feel free to speak up about what I could have done better and what they as individuals could have done better. I expect everybody to learn from the lessons and work together to put things right.
This (at least on paper) is a common approach in industries where risk management is a key skill (like the one in which I work), either because there is a lot of money at risk when things go wrong, or a risk to life, or both. Like all of these sorts of things, it is easier said than done, but when it works well, it is a culture where people are open about their mistakes, so that everyone can learn from them, everyone can help put them right and people feel supported by each other, which results in more eyes on new situations and fewer new mistakes.
So, if I had been in this situation, I'd be thinking about what I could have done better and look to do that going forward. Check the tyres before driving (not just for (abnormal) wear, but also a slow puncture, or sidewall damage, or vandalism, etc). Pay attention to the PSM light and slow down and stop if it comes on unexpectedly. Learn a bit more about the handling characteristics of the car so that it is obvious when it's set up wrong. Do a car control course so that, if the tyre failure results in a loss of stability, skills are in place to manage it.
So it is not about being an OPC fanboy. I have bought cars from and/ or had them serviced by many different OPCs over the years. Yes, I have found one that I like and a use them exclusively now for several things, which makes sense for me for several reasons. But as it happens, I get the geometry done on all my cars at a suspension specialist and my tyres from a tyre specialist. Why? Because if all you do all day is fit tyres or do suspension geo you get very good at it. Getting these things done right can absolutely transform a car and looking for the perfect geometry for the track or the road is one of the things that brings me a lot of satisfaction in my cars.
I see yesterday you also mentioned the centre involved when you quoted your lawyer's response (notice that a moderator called jermeyc has edited out their name from your post and from the repost of the person who quoted you). I think it might also be worth asking how that will influence their reaction to this situation. I'd have a look back through here and make sure you'll be comfortable when THEIR lawyer reads your posts.
IMI A said:
What's THEIR lawyer going to do lol?! OP or his loved ones could have been fatally injured in slightly different circumstances....
Yes they could, and if that had happened it would be a very different situation. But it didn't.Using the dubious attempted murder analogy - it's like the murderer walking towards his victims house, tripping over and accidentally firing his gun into the pavement. Despite his intentions and what might have happened, that isn't going to result in a prosecution for attempted murder (assuming he was arrested at that point obviously).
It's very different from the situation where he reached a victims house and causes fatal or life threatening injuries.
IMI A said:
What's THEIR lawyer going to do lol?! OP or his loved ones could have been fatally injured in slightly different circumstances....
What their lawyer will do is look for reasons why the OP's negligence contributed to this situation and argue that it was the OPs negligence that in fact was the proximate cause in this tyre failure. If he is a particularly robust operator, he may well also throw in a defamation claim against the OP for good measure.Live by the sword die by the sword.
And why pick the fight? They've already fixed the car and apologised and I'm sure the OP would have got a further goodwill gesture if he hadn't kicked off this whole debate on here.
davek_964 said:
IMI A said:
What's THEIR lawyer going to do lol?! OP or his loved ones could have been fatally injured in slightly different circumstances....
Yes they could, and if that had happened it would be a very different situation. But it didn't.Using the dubious attempted murder analogy - it's like the murderer walking towards his victims house, tripping over and accidentally firing his gun into the pavement. Despite his intentions and what might have happened, that isn't going to result in a prosecution for attempted murder (assuming he was arrested at that point obviously).
It's very different from the situation where he reached a victims house and causes fatal or life threatening injuries.
Oso said:
IMI A said:
What's THEIR lawyer going to do lol?! OP or his loved ones could have been fatally injured in slightly different circumstances....
What their lawyer will do is look for reasons why the OP's negligence contributed to this situation and argue that it was the OPs negligence that in fact was the proximate cause in this tyre failure. If he is a particularly robust operator, he may well also throw in a defamation claim against the OP for good measure.Live by the sword die by the sword.
And why pick the fight? They've already fixed the car and apologised and I'm sure the OP would have got a further goodwill gesture if he hadn't kicked off this whole debate on here.
Oso said:
IMI A said:
I'm sorry thats just nonsense and this will never get that far. lal la land to think this is going to go legal.
What are you sorry for? I told the OP on page 1 not to get the lawyers involved. It's not me who has got the lawyers involved.IMI A said:
Oso said:
IMI A said:
I'm sorry thats just nonsense and this will never get that far. lal la land to think this is going to go legal.
What are you sorry for? I told the OP on page 1 not to get the lawyers involved. It's not me who has got the lawyers involved.
I have done nothing but present the facts. So should in some fairy tale land the Porsche lawyers look on here then I haven't done anything untoward.
My main rationale for posting about this was to share the experience.... and gain some knowledge in reverse. One thing I have learnt for sure... that I kind of knew.... is that there are some argumentative tossers in this world ;-)
As a martial artist (to follow on from a previous post someone made) I am always looking to better myself. I will of course learn from this. Taking the vehicle to a suspension specialist maybe a good shout.
FYI to everyone I have "set the lawyers" on them. I have followed the correct process. I have found out what the problem is/was. I said from the outset how the heck could I ever prove it was the OPC fault. BUT - that one of their management has advised me it was a tracking issue (and the evidence points that way) and also due to previous issues - I have asked it is escalated to head office. I have had a call from them - the usual sorry we will investigate and await that. In the interim I have "spoken" with a negligence solicitor to see where I stand legally. Which is a reasonable thing to do.
If all that is reasonable is that I get everything covered thats cool. If Porsche head office deem this worthy of something else - cool. If there is precedent in law here to prove negligence - cool.
This is a forum - where you can debate things figuratively. There seems to be a lot of straw man debating going on. But again I'm used to people doing that.
My main rationale for posting about this was to share the experience.... and gain some knowledge in reverse. One thing I have learnt for sure... that I kind of knew.... is that there are some argumentative tossers in this world ;-)
As a martial artist (to follow on from a previous post someone made) I am always looking to better myself. I will of course learn from this. Taking the vehicle to a suspension specialist maybe a good shout.
FYI to everyone I have "set the lawyers" on them. I have followed the correct process. I have found out what the problem is/was. I said from the outset how the heck could I ever prove it was the OPC fault. BUT - that one of their management has advised me it was a tracking issue (and the evidence points that way) and also due to previous issues - I have asked it is escalated to head office. I have had a call from them - the usual sorry we will investigate and await that. In the interim I have "spoken" with a negligence solicitor to see where I stand legally. Which is a reasonable thing to do.
If all that is reasonable is that I get everything covered thats cool. If Porsche head office deem this worthy of something else - cool. If there is precedent in law here to prove negligence - cool.
This is a forum - where you can debate things figuratively. There seems to be a lot of straw man debating going on. But again I'm used to people doing that.
Oso said:
IMI A said:
Oso said:
IMI A said:
I'm sorry thats just nonsense and this will never get that far. lal la land to think this is going to go legal.
What are you sorry for? I told the OP on page 1 not to get the lawyers involved. It's not me who has got the lawyers involved.No just a law degree lol - obviously I did not learn anything!
IMI A said:
davek_964 said:
IMI A said:
What's THEIR lawyer going to do lol?! OP or his loved ones could have been fatally injured in slightly different circumstances....
Yes they could, and if that had happened it would be a very different situation. But it didn't.Using the dubious attempted murder analogy - it's like the murderer walking towards his victims house, tripping over and accidentally firing his gun into the pavement. Despite his intentions and what might have happened, that isn't going to result in a prosecution for attempted murder (assuming he was arrested at that point obviously).
It's very different from the situation where he reached a victims house and causes fatal or life threatening injuries.
This has all got a bit juicy now hasn't it?!
An adversary has been charged with attempted murder having shot the tyres out with a gun that may have been discharged accidentally on purpose when he tripped on the pavement.
The lawyers have been called in and the local council have a criminally civil case to answer (look up table available now on here to determine case type).
I don't know which way this one is going to go, but I'm hooked. OP, I think there could be a potential movie in this. You may even be able to play yourself and get to chop up a few baddies.
An adversary has been charged with attempted murder having shot the tyres out with a gun that may have been discharged accidentally on purpose when he tripped on the pavement.
The lawyers have been called in and the local council have a criminally civil case to answer (look up table available now on here to determine case type).
I don't know which way this one is going to go, but I'm hooked. OP, I think there could be a potential movie in this. You may even be able to play yourself and get to chop up a few baddies.
GaryF said:
This has all got a bit juicy now hasn't it?!
An adversary has been charged with attempted murder having shot the tyres out with a gun that may have been discharged accidentally on purpose when he tripped on the pavement.
The lawyers have been called in and the local council have a criminally civil case to answer (look up table available now on here to determine case type).
I don't know which way this one is going to go, but I'm hooked. OP, I think there could be a potential movie in this. You may even be able to play yourself and get to chop up a few baddies.
Bwahahahahahaa what have I caused.An adversary has been charged with attempted murder having shot the tyres out with a gun that may have been discharged accidentally on purpose when he tripped on the pavement.
The lawyers have been called in and the local council have a criminally civil case to answer (look up table available now on here to determine case type).
I don't know which way this one is going to go, but I'm hooked. OP, I think there could be a potential movie in this. You may even be able to play yourself and get to chop up a few baddies.
I think what people need to research is straw man logic and also figurative talk!
When did I say I was looking at taking Porsche to court for attempted murder? haha!
sebulban said:
When did I say I was looking at taking Porsche to court for attempted murder? haha!
You didn't. However :sebulban said:
Doesn't matter how much a lawyer is paid per se if its clear that a law has been broken .....
davek_964 said:
sebulban said:
I will wait to see how it all unfolds. But yes - I don't expect anything much to happen.
Doesn't matter how much a lawyer is paid per se if its clear that a law has been broken .....
The law of 'could have happened'?Doesn't matter how much a lawyer is paid per se if its clear that a law has been broken .....
sebulban said:
davek_964 said:
The law of 'could have happened'?
So you can't get life for "attempted" murder? But I'm inclined to agree with Oso - they are already compensating you directly for any real loss you suffered, and I think any goodwill Porsche were likely to offer for any loss you <might> have suffered is likely to disappear now the lawyers are involved.
Regardless of whether Porsche were responsible for the tyres wearing excessively- which does seem to be the case - it is always going to be your responsibility to make sure the car is roadworthy, which means that you should have noticed this long before the tyre exploded.
Good luck, and I hope you do get a positive result. But I suspect that unless you're using an ambulance chasing no-win-no-fee lawyer, you're simply going to end up with a legal bill.
davek_964 said:
I don't think anybody disputes that it COULD have been very serious.
But I'm inclined to agree with Oso - they are already compensating you directly for any real loss you suffered, and I think any goodwill Porsche were likely to offer for any loss you <might> have suffered is likely to disappear now the lawyers are involved.
Regardless of whether Porsche were responsible for the tyres wearing excessively- which does seem to be the case - it is always going to be your responsibility to make sure the car is roadworthy, which means that you should have noticed this long before the tyre exploded.
Good luck, and I hope you do get a positive result. But I suspect that unless you're using an ambulance chasing no-win-no-fee lawyer, you're simply going to end up with a legal bill.
To reiterate I havent "set the lawyers on them." - Im awaiting Porsche Head Office response to their "investigations." I took legal advice before posting here just to see where I stand. And after hearing peoples thoughts on here Im guessing the ultimate result will be rectifying their error... maybe an offer of a service or something & a pretty cheap life lesson, which Im all for.But I'm inclined to agree with Oso - they are already compensating you directly for any real loss you suffered, and I think any goodwill Porsche were likely to offer for any loss you <might> have suffered is likely to disappear now the lawyers are involved.
Regardless of whether Porsche were responsible for the tyres wearing excessively- which does seem to be the case - it is always going to be your responsibility to make sure the car is roadworthy, which means that you should have noticed this long before the tyre exploded.
Good luck, and I hope you do get a positive result. But I suspect that unless you're using an ambulance chasing no-win-no-fee lawyer, you're simply going to end up with a legal bill.
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