Discussion
Ref seasonal dip, in terms of benefit for buyers I'm not sure there is one: I've bought soft tops at the "wrong" time of year before and there's been no noticeable dip - there are less buyers for them but also there are less vehicles for sale so supply/demand all evens out in my experience.
On a newish car you're much more likely to get a better buy by buying this autumn than now simply because the cars available will on average be older with a few more miles. But you have to trade that extra cost against the use you'd get out of the car over this summer that you'd miss out on by buying this autumn.
On a newish car you're much more likely to get a better buy by buying this autumn than now simply because the cars available will on average be older with a few more miles. But you have to trade that extra cost against the use you'd get out of the car over this summer that you'd miss out on by buying this autumn.
Had a v8 Audi R8 sold it last October.v10 spyders (manual) are similar money but cabin is getting dated and identical to v8's.had Maserati grantourismo.997 gen 1 carrera s.its not about the power it's the progress in ride and handling that attracts.I live in Scotland and highland blasts like on evo ecoty are my summer evening weekend drives.
Mario149 said:
On the (admittedly fairly significant) assumption that the 718S is not going to be given better throttle response than the 991.2 models, it's not looking good given what I experienced on my 991.2 C2S test drive.
Least bad option in terms of lag/throttle sounds like it's going to be the vanilla 991.2 Carrera as from memory it's running smaller turbos than the S version.
Still don't understand why Porsche didn't go the way of the 488 with some torque curve engineering, seems a no brainer.
I had a 991.2s cab for the day recently and thought the engine was really nice. I didn't find lag an issue at all with PDK. Sure you could find it if you actually looked for it (stick it in a high gear at 2000 rpm cruise along and then floor it), but drive it like you meant it and it was simply not an issue for me. And it revved freely to over 6k - and I rarely use more than 6500 on 981S. Least bad option in terms of lag/throttle sounds like it's going to be the vanilla 991.2 Carrera as from memory it's running smaller turbos than the S version.
Still don't understand why Porsche didn't go the way of the 488 with some torque curve engineering, seems a no brainer.
Given that the 2 litre 718 must be using more boost (it has a higher specific output) and doesn't use variable geometry lag may be more of an issue. On the other hand the 2.5 litre has a lower specific output and variable geometry.
Mario149 said:
On the (admittedly fairly significant) assumption that the 718S is not going to be given better throttle response than the 991.2 models, it's not looking good given what I experienced on my 991.2 C2S test drive.
Least bad option in terms of lag/throttle sounds like it's going to be the vanilla 991.2 Carrera as from memory it's running smaller turbos than the S version.
Still don't understand why Porsche didn't go the way of the 488 with some torque curve engineering, seems a no brainer.
Porsche always end up with a brilliant product but they do make major mistakes along the way. First generation PDK was a dog, current version is probably the best paddle box on the market. Electric steering in the 991 (early cars) was cr@p, but by the GTS it was more than respectable and brilliant in the RS. I think the same will be for the turbo engines. First version highly average, but by the time the 991.2 GTS comes along it will be an awesome engine.Least bad option in terms of lag/throttle sounds like it's going to be the vanilla 991.2 Carrera as from memory it's running smaller turbos than the S version.
Still don't understand why Porsche didn't go the way of the 488 with some torque curve engineering, seems a no brainer.
bcr5784 said:
Mario149 said:
On the (admittedly fairly significant) assumption that the 718S is not going to be given better throttle response than the 991.2 models, it's not looking good given what I experienced on my 991.2 C2S test drive.
Least bad option in terms of lag/throttle sounds like it's going to be the vanilla 991.2 Carrera as from memory it's running smaller turbos than the S version.
Still don't understand why Porsche didn't go the way of the 488 with some torque curve engineering, seems a no brainer.
I had a 991.2s cab for the day recently and thought the engine was really nice. I didn't find lag an issue at all with PDK. Sure you could find it if you actually looked for it (stick it in a high gear at 2000 rpm cruise along and then floor it), but drive it like you meant it and it was simply not an issue for me. And it revved freely to over 6k - and I rarely use more than 6500 on 981S. Least bad option in terms of lag/throttle sounds like it's going to be the vanilla 991.2 Carrera as from memory it's running smaller turbos than the S version.
Still don't understand why Porsche didn't go the way of the 488 with some torque curve engineering, seems a no brainer.
Given that the 2 litre 718 must be using more boost (it has a higher specific output) and doesn't use variable geometry lag may be more of an issue. On the other hand the 2.5 litre has a lower specific output and variable geometry.
991.2 lag is def not an issue if you're "on it", but having it in a high gear at low revs is ironically where we're being told the new engine is better than the old - it's being championed as flexible. Yet if you even look at the throttle too hard in auto the PDK will drop a cog or two (even in normal mode) rather than riding the torque, clearly because Porsche don't want you to notice the lag. So they're simultaneously giving you a more flexible engine while at the same time not making use of it in auto mode where people want to waft. And if you do have it in manual and try and use the flexibility, you'll get the lag. Porsche couldn't be sending a more confused message if it tried.
As for not using all the revs, as I said in a previous post (on this thread or another I can't remember), if you're someone that doesn't ever really rev out your car to the redline then the 991.2 will be a stonking car for you. It's also more likely that if you're that person you're probably also not the type to worry about a bit of lag - double win. It's basically a 996 Turbo Lite with a better sound and less lag which is objectively no bad thing. It is a very good car.
But if you're someone who really loved the previous NA engine offering and the salesman is trying to sell it to you as having all the good bits of the last one but with more flexibility, it's a con. Incidentally, the fuel consumption is a con as well, you spend so much time on boost accidentally using the performance I don't think I got more than 21mpg out of it average over an hour in mixed B-road and DC driving.
Mario149 said:
Good spot, I had forgotten the S will be 2.5 litres not 2, fingers crossed it helps.
991.2 lag is def not an issue if you're "on it", but having it in a high gear at low revs is ironically where we're being told the new engine is better than the old - it's being championed as flexible. Yet if you even look at the throttle too hard in auto the PDK will drop a cog or two (even in normal mode) rather than riding the torque, clearly because Porsche don't want you to notice the lag. So they're simultaneously giving you a more flexible engine while at the same time not making use of it in auto mode where people want to waft. And if you do have it in manual and try and use the flexibility, you'll get the lag. Porsche couldn't be sending a more confused message if it tried.
As for not using all the revs, as I said in a previous post (on this thread or another I can't remember), if you're someone that doesn't ever really rev out your car to the redline then the 991.2 will be a stonking car for you. It's also more likely that if you're that person you're probably also not the type to worry about a bit of lag - double win. It's basically a 996 Turbo Lite with a better sound and less lag which is objectively no bad thing. It is a very good car.
But if you're someone who really loved the previous NA engine offering and the salesman is trying to sell it to you as having all the good bits of the last one but with more flexibility, it's a con. Incidentally, the fuel consumption is a con as well, you spend so much time on boost accidentally using the performance I don't think I got more than 21mpg out of it average over an hour in mixed B-road and DC driving.
There is clearly something in what you say, Porsche are selling the car so you have to take what they say with a pinch of salt. However, stick the NA 981S in a high gear at 2000 revs and floor it and it feels pretty lack-lustre - PDK does the same job of disguising that as it does the turbo lag, so I don't think the NA wins there. And in the 2500-4000 range the turbo completely overwhelms the NA engine which is languishing in the dip in the torque curve. 991.2 lag is def not an issue if you're "on it", but having it in a high gear at low revs is ironically where we're being told the new engine is better than the old - it's being championed as flexible. Yet if you even look at the throttle too hard in auto the PDK will drop a cog or two (even in normal mode) rather than riding the torque, clearly because Porsche don't want you to notice the lag. So they're simultaneously giving you a more flexible engine while at the same time not making use of it in auto mode where people want to waft. And if you do have it in manual and try and use the flexibility, you'll get the lag. Porsche couldn't be sending a more confused message if it tried.
As for not using all the revs, as I said in a previous post (on this thread or another I can't remember), if you're someone that doesn't ever really rev out your car to the redline then the 991.2 will be a stonking car for you. It's also more likely that if you're that person you're probably also not the type to worry about a bit of lag - double win. It's basically a 996 Turbo Lite with a better sound and less lag which is objectively no bad thing. It is a very good car.
But if you're someone who really loved the previous NA engine offering and the salesman is trying to sell it to you as having all the good bits of the last one but with more flexibility, it's a con. Incidentally, the fuel consumption is a con as well, you spend so much time on boost accidentally using the performance I don't think I got more than 21mpg out of it average over an hour in mixed B-road and DC driving.
bcr5784 said:
There is clearly something in what you say, Porsche are selling the car so you have to take what they say with a pinch of salt. However, stick the NA 981S in a high gear at 2000 revs and floor it and it feels pretty lack-lustre - PDK does the same job of disguising that as it does the turbo lag, so I don't think the NA wins there. And in the 2500-4000 range the turbo completely overwhelms the NA engine which is languishing in the dip in the torque curve.
Def agree that a 981 (GT)S is lacklustre compared to the turbo engine at lower revs, 991.1 cars would be the same although not as bad. Problem is that the lag, even though small, reminds me of my BMW 330D. The boost even comes in at virtually the same revs on both cars too just to add a bit more mindf--k to my experience 
The other thing that irritates me is that if the boost is in the process of coming on and you reduce throttle, you still get a few moments of continued boost and acceleration. With the NA engine, you may not get the performance, but the engine is always doing exactly what your right foot says. In the 991.2S I just had these moments, admittedly brief, where it felt there was an elastic connection between my input (be it on or off throttle) and what the engine was doing. Best review I've found that matches my 991.2 experience is the one from Harry's Garage. My thoughts are pretty similar to his.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yNY8avAi54
Mario149 said:
Def agree that a 981 (GT)S is lacklustre compared to the turbo engine at lower revs, 991.1 cars would be the same although not as bad. Problem is that the lag, even though small, reminds me of my BMW 330D. The boost even comes in at virtually the same revs on both cars too just to add a bit more mindf--k to my experience The other thing that irritates me is that if the boost is in the process of coming on and you reduce throttle, you still get a few moments of continued boost and acceleration. With the NA engine, you may not get the performance, but the engine is always doing exactly what your right foot says. In the 991.2S I just had these moments, admittedly brief, where it felt there was an elastic connection between my input (be it on or off throttle) and what the engine was doing.
Best review I've found that matches my 991.2 experience is the one from Harry's Garage. My thoughts are pretty similar to his.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yNY8avAi54
Seems like a pretty fair review - I think as he says PDK will work better than manual. While I agree that you do get a noticeable momentary continued boost when you lift off quickly, I tend to lift off gently (on the road) so never find it an issue (or even notice I'm doing it). Might well be an issue on track though - the Cayennes I drove at Silverstone recently were a pain for that. The other thing that irritates me is that if the boost is in the process of coming on and you reduce throttle, you still get a few moments of continued boost and acceleration. With the NA engine, you may not get the performance, but the engine is always doing exactly what your right foot says. In the 991.2S I just had these moments, admittedly brief, where it felt there was an elastic connection between my input (be it on or off throttle) and what the engine was doing. Best review I've found that matches my 991.2 experience is the one from Harry's Garage. My thoughts are pretty similar to his.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yNY8avAi54
bcr5784 said:
There is clearly something in what you say, Porsche are selling the car so you have to take what they say with a pinch of salt. However, stick the NA 981S in a high gear at 2000 revs and floor it and it feels pretty lack-lustre - PDK does the same job of disguising that as it does the turbo lag, so I don't think the NA wins there. And in the 2500-4000 range the turbo completely overwhelms the NA engine which is languishing in the dip in the torque curve.
That's much of the point, isn't it? If you're not driving the NA cars above 4000 rpms, then you're doing it wrong, and heel/toeing around windy roads while keeping the revs up is much of the fun for me. The turbo will be good for those who test drive at 2500 RPMS with a latte in one hand.duder13 said:
That's much of the point, isn't it? If you're not driving the NA cars above 4000 rpms, then you're doing it wrong, and heel/toeing around windy roads while keeping the revs up is much of the fun for me. The turbo will be good for those who test drive at 2500 RPMS with a latte in one hand.
That's fine when conditions allow, but the hole in the torque curve between 2500 and 4000 revs means that the car is fun when you are driving at 8 tenths or above, and it's also perfectly pleasant at 3 or 4 tenths - but is a bit lacking at 6 tenths or so. Unfortunately traffic conditions in my part of the world don't allow as much 8 tenths driving as I would like. An NA car doesn't have to have a hole in the torque curve! Mario149 said:
The other thing that irritates me is that if the boost is in the process of coming on and you reduce throttle, you still get a few moments of continued boost and acceleration. With the NA engine, you may not get the performance, but the engine is always doing exactly what your right foot says.
This was what I found in my 2012 TTS, and one reason I grew to dislike it. The other was the lag from standstill or from low revs. Had. An invite from local OPC to the launch event, but have no interest in even attending. I will never consider buying a new Boxster until the 6 cylinder normally aspirated returns..if it doesn't there are plenty of 986/987, even 981 out there...they can keep that electric Steering too..and all the bings and bongs and unnecessary tech!...Maybe I just need a TVR in my life...#luddite
Edited by billzeebub on Saturday 2nd April 01:09
DJMC said:
Mario149 said:
The other thing that irritates me is that if the boost is in the process of coming on and you reduce throttle, you still get a few moments of continued boost and acceleration. With the NA engine, you may not get the performance, but the engine is always doing exactly what your right foot says.
This was what I found in my 2012 TTS, and one reason I grew to dislike it. The other was the lag from standstill or from low revs. NJH said:
DJMC said:
Mario149 said:
The other thing that irritates me is that if the boost is in the process of coming on and you reduce throttle, you still get a few moments of continued boost and acceleration. With the NA engine, you may not get the performance, but the engine is always doing exactly what your right foot says.
This was what I found in my 2012 TTS, and one reason I grew to dislike it. The other was the lag from standstill or from low revs. I really, really didn't like the 718 when I first clapped eyes on it in photos, but I do intend to have a look at it and drive it before I make up my mind.
In a way we all knew this was coming, and at least with the packaging constraints of the engine bay they couldn't simply have put an in-line four on its side and turbo-charged that. A flat four is more expensive to produce than an in-line four, or worse still they could have just put a 3 cylinder in there!!
Some very good past Porsches came with flat four engines, did they not?
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