Engine Failure Risk ??

Engine Failure Risk ??

Author
Discussion

steve1968

Original Poster:

343 posts

259 months

Monday 25th April 2016
quotequote all

Now i know this subject has been covered so many times and i have read many threads but the more i read the more confused and bewildered i become on the subject .

Can anyone give a simple summary as to which engines in 987 Boxster/Caymans and early 997's present the least risk ?

I understand there will always be an element of risk in running cars such as these and have in the past owned 3.2 G50, 993 and Z3M coupe( i know i should have kept them all).

Looking to possibly upgrade my current 2.7 Boxster 987 to 3.2-3.4 Boxster or Cayman or possibly push the boat out to 3.6-3.8 997.


Any advice welcome .

GT4P

5,188 posts

184 months

Monday 25th April 2016
quotequote all
If budget allows go post 2008/9 ie DFi gen2 engine which has no IMS to worry about which lets go without warning and the bore scoring of pre dfi does not seem to be an issue due to revised cooling and has on the whole proved to be reliable!
If budget is tight and cannot afford to buy a dfi buy a car with an opc warranty or have some money put aside if the worse happens. Apart from the 2.7 I do not think any of the gen1 engines 3.4,3.6, or 3.8 are any less risky although a 987 3.2 Boxster may be less risky from bore scoring and the safest bet after a 2.7

Edited by GT4P on Monday 25th April 21:08

drmark

4,794 posts

185 months

Tuesday 26th April 2016
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Post 2006 997 engines have upgraded IMS (last version).

LordHaveMurci

12,034 posts

168 months

Tuesday 26th April 2016
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But 3.8's are most prone to bore scoring I believe?

sparta6

3,689 posts

99 months

Wednesday 27th April 2016
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have you seen the latest edition of 911 & Porsche World ? Coolant fittings on a 997 eek

steve1968

Original Poster:

343 posts

259 months

Wednesday 27th April 2016
quotequote all

Thanks for the replies it would appear i probably was understanding things but replies have confirmed my thoughts and quite possibly put me off the 997.1 a little due to higher purchase price , higher risk and possibly higher repair cost if needed .

Are these issues similar for 996 C4S ??

Regarding the Boxster/Cayman models i may already have a low risk option and with 987.2 2.9 and 3.4 cars still around £20K the sensible option if i really can't resist would be a 2.7 Cayman ,,,, or back to the Z3M if i could find a good one .

As for claims of Gen 2 987 and 997 engines being more robust is this not just because they are newer and less failures showing due to not being so old or as many out there ?


steve1968

Original Poster:

343 posts

259 months

Wednesday 27th April 2016
quotequote all
Thanks again for the advice .

If i did decide to take the risk what sort of money would i be looking at in the case of bore score remedy and future proofing , i appreciate all failures are different and have had a skim though the 55 page Hartech explanation .

I recall their site mentioning around 7k all in for Boxster/Cayman and 11k for 996/7 + VAT !!

But i assume there are others offering this service .

Markbarry1977

4,027 posts

102 months

Wednesday 27th April 2016
quotequote all
Go to hartec website. They are a renowned uk Porsche engine builder who run Porsches of there own and build others for the Porsche gb series, Le Mans and other teams. They are the experts.

They have a technical discussion section with a very comprehensive breakdown of all these issues and preventative measures. I'm sure baz from hartec is on this forum and may well point you in the right direction as to where the articles are.

I run a 2006 Cayman 3.4(S), my understanding is that IMS is very very rare. D-chunking is also rare. Bore scoring is more likely. Baz seems to think this is due to the margines on the cooling I.e caining the car around, coming to a stop (at say traffic lights) and heat soak builds up making the oil thinner and you then do a full bore launch from the lights.

I try not to just come to a quick stop after spirited driving and if I do then I just pull away slower.

I know I run a risk but, I figure if the worst happens I would just pay hartec to rebuild it and then know it's bullet proof. The car is fantastic to drive and gives me so many smiles that I just accept it.


Fl0pp3r

859 posts

202 months

Wednesday 27th April 2016
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Generally agree with cmoose's summary there, plus you can read this writeup by Peter Morgan:
http://www.porscheinspections.com/content/download...


ooid

4,049 posts

99 months

Wednesday 27th April 2016
quotequote all
Fl0pp3r said:
Generally agree with cmoose's summary there, plus you can read this writeup by Peter Morgan:
http://www.porscheinspections.com/content/download...
Sorry but I can't stop laughing at this part "He never uses his Boxster if the journey length is less than 20 miles".

Right... biggrin

Hartech-k3i12

3 posts

99 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
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There is a huge amount of information in our Buyers guide on our web site and it will take ages to read through it all.

Failures are however rare and they are generally a reliable car and engine. Some failures are unavoidable (being linked more to new technology issues and random) but most are influenced by driving styles and behaviour - frequent oil changes, long warming up procedures before driving too aggressively, avoiding driving fast after a period of static running, keeping radiator inlets clean and fitting a low temperature thermostat will all help.

The guide is however many years old now and grew and expanded over several years as new models exposed new problems and more models came to the market. As we researched more and found more explanations we added them - resulting in that guide becoming very lengthy and a challenge to read through it all. The good aspect of this may be that the explanations for failures that we provided years ago proved - over a long period of time - to be spot on and as a result the solutions we tested and brought to the market have provided a very reliable outcome - giving confidence to owners who are not sure who to believe when different specialists try to promote different products and rebuild options - and there is nothing like our guide available in such detail elsewhere..

We are working on a new version of our buyers guide that uses modern technology to click into more detail or stick with brief information - so readers can access the level of information they want and that suits them more quickly and easily - but it is a big task and not yet complete. I get back to it every now and again but new Hartech products are in the pipeline and also take up most of my time.

The responses above are actually generally very good and the models you are interested in are really good cars - not worthy of too much concern over their reliability and at least - if something does go wrong (that will be very rare) there are some very good solutions available that are less expensive than and new engine and can incorporate modifications and technical changes that render the rebuilt car a higher specification that the original one.

Although failures are rare - there are so many cars out there that for specialists like ourselves - we are very busy carrying out rebuilds at the rate on one/day - and inevitably others want to get in on the action and provide different solutions. Some of these are Ok while others are not and we do include in our rebuild and re-manufacturing work a regular stream of engines that were rebuilt elsewhere and to different specifications that didn't last very long.

For some reason the owners who had to get them rebuilt properly buy us (after a failed rebuild elsewhere) rarely post about it on the Internet - but we are including in the next "guide" more pictures of those failures and more explanations about the technical causes. These include an engine that had the wrong pistons fitted that stuck up far enough out of the top of the block to hit the cylinder heads, different types of liners that have slipped, sunk or cracked, engines that have been rebuilt elsewhere using the old gaskets (and lots of silicon sealant), liners that have been bodged in with lumps of weld etc etc.

So - in conclusion - the engines are generally good with few statistical failures - but the large numbers sold make the reports of failures exaggerate the problem and fortunately those large numbers have enabled some specialists (like us) to justify investing in people, machinery, research, development, staff and workshop space to provide excellent solutions for those that need it.

Baz

steve1968

Original Poster:

343 posts

259 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
This is what i find a little confusing ,the statement that failures are rare but your establishment alone is carrying out rebuilds on a daily basis , which i presume works out to around 200 units a year ?

One train of thought i am adapting is to risk the possible cost of engine failure against the lesser depreciation of a 15K ish Gen 1 Cayman S against the definate greater depreciation of a 20K Gen 2 . But then of course the cost of rebiuld could be 80% of the cars value based on comments above .

Car would never be used at anywhere near its performance potential and unlikely for track days etc .

Am I, and I suspect many others worrying to much ?



Markbarry1977

4,027 posts

102 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
Thanks baz, I knew you would be along to help out with an answer. I for one have already said should my 988.1 3.4 go pop/score/d-chunk etc then I'm having my car transported straight up to you.

LordHaveMurci

12,034 posts

168 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
steve1968 said:
This is what i find a little confusing ,the statement that failures are rare but your establishment alone is carrying out rebuilds on a daily basis , which i presume works out to around 200 units a year ?

Am I, and I suspect many others worrying to much ?

Many thousands of cars built with the M96/M97 engines so even if Hartech etc have rebuilt several thousand the % is very low. Baz has already said they have rebuilt a number of engines previously 'repaired' by other specialists & I'm gonna bet that engines fail for many other reasons than the well documented IMS/bore score etc, same as any other engine really.

zulash

202 posts

109 months

Thursday 28th April 2016
quotequote all
steve1968 said:
Now i know this subject has been covered so many times and i have read many threads but the more i read the more confused and bewildered i become on the subject .

Can anyone give a simple summary as to which engines in 987 Boxster/Caymans and early 997's present the least risk ?

I understand there will always be an element of risk in running cars such as these and have in the past owned 3.2 G50, 993 and Z3M coupe( i know i should have kept them all).

Looking to possibly upgrade my current 2.7 Boxster 987 to 3.2-3.4 Boxster or Cayman or possibly push the boat out to 3.6-3.8 997.


Any advice welcome .
Hi Pal, I've had 3 Boxsters ... being 2 x 3.2's and more recently a 2008 3.4 and had the same issue worries as you.Never had any problems. Then i got the 911 bug. Could not afford a Gen 2. Eventually bought a 2007 997.1 3.6 Carrera Tip S with 41K on the clock. The engine really smooth... no ticking noises etc. Best thing is... it still is. The first thing i did when i got the car was service and Low temp thermostat fitted, purely because of what i'd read on here. I absolutely love the car but having said that, the day i can afford to upgrade to gen 2, (wife permitting) i will do. Having said all that ,you can buy 997.1's now with the full Hartech engine rebuild for around £27K as opposed to a 997.2 for £38K. All that said... there are plenty of problem free cars out there.. the problem is, that on PH you generally read about problems. Good luck with your final decision & purchase... keep us all informed. smile

grumpynuts

955 posts

159 months

Friday 29th April 2016
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I've had my 996 C4S for over 3 years, covered 25,000 miles, and NOTHING has gone wrong with the engine. I've worked through it replacing and upgrading many of the wear and tear items (suspension bushes etc),made sure it has been serviced on time, put mesh over the intakes to keep crap out of the rads, fitted a low temp thermostat, and changed the coolant. I warm it up carefully (as I have done to all my toys over the years), and treat it with a modicum of mechanical sympathy. I have done trackdays in it, and not spared the ponies, so it has been used as intended. These are extremely strong and powerful engines, just look after them, no different to any performance car.
Remember, as it's a 911, the engines get rebuilt when they wear (out) or break, as the cars are owned and used for many many years. Most other cars that get to 100k or more miles, and 15 years of age, get scrapped when they need major mechanical works. This is why you'll find so many M96/M97 engines being rebuilt. These cars will have 2 or 3 "lives". Mine's certainly going to.

Spice_Weasel

2,286 posts

252 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
have you seen the latest edition of 911 & Porsche World ? Coolant fittings on a 997 eek
The guys at PCT have replaced some of mine and told me how poor they think the fittings are. I am currently stranded in Coventry after my 997 dumped it's coolant. Looks like it may be a low-positioned hose that runs horizontally at the back of the engine bay.

Awaiting recovery...

ooid

4,049 posts

99 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Spice,

Were you stuck in a traffic or stationary mode more than longer?

It seems to me the coolant shortcomings appear while in a busy traffic or idle.. (Quite unlike in germany)

Spice_Weasel

2,286 posts

252 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
No I wasn't stationary. Travelling at about 50, big puff of water vapour from back of car then coolant warning message on dash and water temp gauge started flashing. Water and oil temps were still below normal warmed up temps so hopefully no damage done.

ooid

4,049 posts

99 months

Friday 29th April 2016
quotequote all
Sorry to hear, good luck with all but this is my worst fear of geting a 997.1 to be honest!

Having this issue twice with 986, luckily I was quite central!