Top Gear's Review of the 718 Cayman ...
Discussion
Klippie said:
The 718 will wipe the floor with the 981 its more powerful and has more torque can't argue with numbers I'am afraid, it will come out top in every performance and handling test that can be thrown at it.
Unfortunately its not a car for the enthusiast minority its designed to shift metal, most potential buyers won't give a flying f
k what it sounds like, looks like or how well it drives and that's the real shame as these people dictate what Porsche builds these days, we all want the polar opposite and have no chance ever seeing that from now on so we are stuck with our 987's and 981's which is not a bad thing as they are great cars anyway.
The sad thing is the majority don't dictate what Porsche build. Plenty of people bought the 981 not caring about the F6. If the 718 had it, it would still sell loads because it's the latest thing, the looks and the badge. Unfortunately its not a car for the enthusiast minority its designed to shift metal, most potential buyers won't give a flying f
k what it sounds like, looks like or how well it drives and that's the real shame as these people dictate what Porsche builds these days, we all want the polar opposite and have no chance ever seeing that from now on so we are stuck with our 987's and 981's which is not a bad thing as they are great cars anyway. Because most customers 'don't give a flying f
k' they allow Porsche to serve up the 718 with a F4T in and it sell.Klippie said:
The 718 will wipe the floor with the 981 its more powerful and has more torque can't argue with numbers I'am afraid, it will come out top in every performance and handling test that can be thrown at it.
I'd largely agree, even the base car is as fast as the old S - but the numbers don't tell the whole story. On Porsche's figures the 2litre car is a whole second faster than the 981S from 50-75 in 5th (let alone the 2.7 981). And with the turbo wound up I can believe that is true. But if you actually cruise along at 50 in 5th and then floor the throttle it's a different story. The 718 takes at least a couple of seconds before the turbo spools up and it makes meaningful progress. Do that comparison and I've no doubt the 981S would feel and BE the faster car over that speed range in 5th. (I did a similar test when I had a 718 for the day).Edited by bcr5784 on Sunday 17th July 08:22
Klippie said:
Unfortunately its not a car for the enthusiast minority its designed to shift metal, most potential buyers won't give a flying fk what it sounds like, looks like or how well it drives
I disagree.k what it sounds like, looks like or how well it drivesThe Cayman is exactly the sort of car bought by enthusiasts. People who do care what it sounds like and how it drives.
The amount of discussion on the engine note on these here pages are testament to that.
People who don't care about such aspects are not going to buy an expensive, impractical mid-engined two-seater.
wellzee said:
Can I not be enthusiastic about cars without driving around in a track spec car?
Course you can - but you do have to wonder about people's priorities when the length of threads about colour choice and bling generally (far?) exceed those about the dynamic aspects of the car.Sparkyhd said:
I think Wellzee is making the general point that there seems to be some snobbery that unless you spec a car to an agreed core of 'enthusiast' options you're diluting the purity and integrity of the brand and the true enthusiasts would rather you bu**er off and buy an Audi TT.
if that is what Wellzee meant I have some sympathy - the bucket seat/manual gearbox/X73 combination that some seem to regard as a rite of passage strikes me as silly. If that is what you actually want - fine, but I suspect, for some, it says as much about the image they want to project as anything else.But, having said that, I still find the focus on bling on here surprising - I would have hoped that this forum has a greater proportion of true enthusiasts than Porsche buyers as a whole.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sparky/bcr that is what I was getting at. I, or anyone, can be an 'enthusiast' about any aspect of cars - my enthusiasm for cars is indeed in looks and sound and how they make you feel. I certainly do not have the technical knowledge on here many have, indeed I spend a lot of time on here learning from those that do, but I don't understand the snobbery around the reasons people choose to buy their cars.anonymous said:
[redacted]
So a Cyaman is a mass produced car?Either way, I disagree compleltey; most people who by a Cayman do care about driving dynamics, but just because you spec a wheel that looks good does not make you a
who cant drive. Do stop being such an opinionated , it's boring 
For what it's worth, I have specified my 718S with 19's and PASM, and a manual gearbox, is that acceptable to your opinionometer?
wellzee said:
Sparky/bcr that is what I was getting at. I, or anyone, can be an 'enthusiast' about any aspect of cars - my enthusiasm for cars is indeed in looks and sound and how they make you feel. I certainly do not have the technical knowledge on here many have, indeed I spend a lot of time on here learning from those that do, but I don't understand the snobbery around the reasons people choose to buy their cars.
Sums up my view of things pretty closely.I am enthusiastic about the styling of the car. How it flows front to back. The proportions. The wheels and the wheel arches. The lighting systems.
I am enthusiastic about the feel of the car on the road. How it corners. How it holds. Finding the grip levels. The balance.
I am enthusiastic about the ability to accelerate. About how the car puts its power down; how its power is delivered in concert with its handling.
I am enthusiastic about the x factor. That ability for a car to sometimes just feel absolutely bloody right and to evoke an unsupressed smile as a result.
I am enthusiastic about the tech. About the sound system. The satnav. The UI and usability.
I am enthusiastic about how well all the above is brought together into a single package.
So I agree that 718 Cayman buyers would be enthusiastic about their purchase for many of the above aspects.
Timbola said:
wellzee said:
Sparky/bcr that is what I was getting at. I, or anyone, can be an 'enthusiast' about any aspect of cars - my enthusiasm for cars is indeed in looks and sound and how they make you feel. I certainly do not have the technical knowledge on here many have, indeed I spend a lot of time on here learning from those that do, but I don't understand the snobbery around the reasons people choose to buy their cars.
Sums up my view of things pretty closely.I am enthusiastic about the styling of the car. How it flows front to back. The proportions. The wheels and the wheel arches. The lighting systems.
I am enthusiastic about the feel of the car on the road. How it corners. How it holds. Finding the grip levels. The balance.
I am enthusiastic about the ability to accelerate. About how the car puts its power down; how its power is delivered in concert with its handling.
I am enthusiastic about the x factor. That ability for a car to sometimes just feel absolutely bloody right and to evoke an unsupressed smile as a result.
I am enthusiastic about the tech. About the sound system. The satnav. The UI and usability.
I am enthusiastic about how well all the above is brought together into a single package.
So I agree that 718 Cayman buyers would be enthusiastic about their purchase for many of the above aspects.
Edited by HighwayStar on Monday 18th July 22:46
HighwayStar said:
That's sounds more like enthusiasm for an iPhone or a piece of hi-fi. The TT boys love their techie interior and virtual cockpit, anyone mentions they're considering a Cayster is met with the questions like have you seen the interior!!!!? Like it's an awful place to be. Me, it's all about the engine, the noise and how the car drives, handles etc. The toys are nice but enthusiastic about then? Hell no.
I'd go along with much of that - but moose's definition of an enthusiast needing a "deep understanding" is unworkable.Edited by HighwayStar on Monday 18th July 22:46
Let me put it this way - I think that Harley Davidsons are truly awful motor bikes - bought for their looks, their image, their rorty exhaust and not for their dynamic capabilities (they haven't got any) - BUT I certainly wouldn't suggest that their owners were anything but enthusiasts.(fanatics even)
Of course you could say that many Porsche owners are not driving enthusiasts - and you'd probably be right. But I doubt whether most of the driving enthusiasts could be said to have a "deep understanding" of their cars dynamics or construction. OK, so they probably all know what an anti roll bar is, some may know what effect it has on handling - but I suspect relatively few know HOW it works. Given how basic that is I would certainly say it was necessary for a "deep understanding" of their car. Most people don't have a "deep understanding" of their car - but unless you are racing and setting the car up yourself, you don't, for the most part, need one.
The whole thing is much simpler for me:
- If I'm paying the thick-end of £40K for a low-mles / used coupe, it better have 6 cylinders; these days, it helps to separate from the ordinary. God's engineers made the '6' a special configuration - the physics of which was created with the big-bang. (Yes, I recently bought a 981 Cay...!)
- I enjoy the KSeries 1.8 '4' in my modified MG Midget (154 bhp for 700 Kgs...); but this is not a sophisticated car and the refinement of the engine is more than adequate (understatement alert!).
- For 4-cylinder, turbo-lag thrills, I can jump into my wife's Golf GTD, anytime (...a useful car for day-day motoring...).
All bases covered!
As an aside, both my sons have the 3-litre 6 in their 3-series (estate and coupe); and a 6 noticeably lifts the refinement and quality-feel of these cars. All personal judgements, of course...
- If I'm paying the thick-end of £40K for a low-mles / used coupe, it better have 6 cylinders; these days, it helps to separate from the ordinary. God's engineers made the '6' a special configuration - the physics of which was created with the big-bang. (Yes, I recently bought a 981 Cay...!)
- I enjoy the KSeries 1.8 '4' in my modified MG Midget (154 bhp for 700 Kgs...); but this is not a sophisticated car and the refinement of the engine is more than adequate (understatement alert!).
- For 4-cylinder, turbo-lag thrills, I can jump into my wife's Golf GTD, anytime (...a useful car for day-day motoring...).
All bases covered!
As an aside, both my sons have the 3-litre 6 in their 3-series (estate and coupe); and a 6 noticeably lifts the refinement and quality-feel of these cars. All personal judgements, of course...
Just to add my thoughts. Not a chance my Cayman R will ever be swapped for one of the new turbo offerings - I'll stick to older stuff or change brand.
Why? I took out a 718 Boxster after my local dealer said it was free and I should try it.
The good: Steering - The front end feels so much more inspiring and like it wants to lent on. Brakes - avoid the popular trap of being ridiculously over assisted and instead have some feel. Interior - lovely place to be.
The indifferent: Ride/suspension - perhaps a perverse criticism here but it's just too refined. I like a sports car that feels like a sports car. The 718 is just too compliant for me. It masks a feedback of the road surface and instead gives you the sort of ride you'd want of a family saloon car. For everyday use this may be ideal for people, but to me it makes the car feel less special. Gearbox - I drove a manual and it's a lovely box to operate but, as with all new Porsche, it is completely ruined by idiotically long gear ratios. It will hit NSL in 2nd, over 100 in 3rd. And with the new engine there isn't even the benefit of reving it out like the old 6 as the noise is miserable and you'll get a driving ban. You might as well leave it in 3rd permanently. This is not what a fun sportscar is about to me. Not at all. I'd love a short ratio box option for people who enjoy driving - make each gears max speed about 30% lower and they'd be onto a winner (in fairness this isn't just a 718 problem. My Cayman R has much too long ratios, but it's nowhere near as bad... and it at least rewards being revved).
The bad: The engine. (Disclaimer - I have no issues with it being 4 cylinder. I don't love turbos but I owned an Impreza STI so I'm not averse to them either) Someone earlier in the thread suggested the reviews were being exaggerated to give the journos something to write about. I disagree. I'd go so far as to say that the likes of EVO have been kind about the engine. First off, the sound. I'd go as far as to call it unpleasant. In sport mode and sport plus mode is also changed a lot on the car I drove, despite no sports exhaust... this makes me wonder just how artificial it also is. Throttle response is not bad once the revs are up a bit. The reviews I've read talk of it being decent from 1500 RPM up. I'd say more like 2500 up and if you give it a prod when the revs are too low it's pretty dead. Power, I can't criticise it for. It's very very quick. Oddly never feels as quick as it is, to me anyway, and I found 100 appeared very quickly and with zero sense you were really moving. Perhaps the fault of the aforementioned suspension. Power delivery is the real killer for me though. It's hard to describe it without emotive vocabulary but I'd say joyless is about right. There is nothing low down, then it's all very fast for a while but with no crescendo and instead it just seems to plateau. I have zero doubt this is quick and good for lap times, but it is also supremely dull and un-involving. The 6 in my Cayman is gutless at low revs, but keep it above 4500 and rev it out and it's magic. The noise crescendos, the power crescendos and you have great fun keeping it in the sweet zone. New engine coupled to the long gear ratios and there's no point. Leave it in 3rd all day if you like. And don't rev it out, there's no point.
I'm a big Porsche fan and have driven lots of Porsches I like, but when the day comes that I pretty much prefer the diesel lump in the Panamera to the latest offering for the Boxster and Cayman S, it's a worry. I am told, though have yet to drive it, that the 911 turbocharging exercise has been much more successful. I hope that's true. The 991 in the garage at the moment I'd criticise for being a bit dead until high up the rev range (come off a roundabout in 2nd and it feels a tad underwhelming) so maybe it is going to work for me more.
I have no issue with technology changing to meet regs or whatever and I'm sure that in a technical sense the 2.5 turbo is a masterpiece, but give me something that needs revved and sounds good any day. And I don't care at all if it's slower and less powerful.
Why? I took out a 718 Boxster after my local dealer said it was free and I should try it.
The good: Steering - The front end feels so much more inspiring and like it wants to lent on. Brakes - avoid the popular trap of being ridiculously over assisted and instead have some feel. Interior - lovely place to be.
The indifferent: Ride/suspension - perhaps a perverse criticism here but it's just too refined. I like a sports car that feels like a sports car. The 718 is just too compliant for me. It masks a feedback of the road surface and instead gives you the sort of ride you'd want of a family saloon car. For everyday use this may be ideal for people, but to me it makes the car feel less special. Gearbox - I drove a manual and it's a lovely box to operate but, as with all new Porsche, it is completely ruined by idiotically long gear ratios. It will hit NSL in 2nd, over 100 in 3rd. And with the new engine there isn't even the benefit of reving it out like the old 6 as the noise is miserable and you'll get a driving ban. You might as well leave it in 3rd permanently. This is not what a fun sportscar is about to me. Not at all. I'd love a short ratio box option for people who enjoy driving - make each gears max speed about 30% lower and they'd be onto a winner (in fairness this isn't just a 718 problem. My Cayman R has much too long ratios, but it's nowhere near as bad... and it at least rewards being revved).
The bad: The engine. (Disclaimer - I have no issues with it being 4 cylinder. I don't love turbos but I owned an Impreza STI so I'm not averse to them either) Someone earlier in the thread suggested the reviews were being exaggerated to give the journos something to write about. I disagree. I'd go so far as to say that the likes of EVO have been kind about the engine. First off, the sound. I'd go as far as to call it unpleasant. In sport mode and sport plus mode is also changed a lot on the car I drove, despite no sports exhaust... this makes me wonder just how artificial it also is. Throttle response is not bad once the revs are up a bit. The reviews I've read talk of it being decent from 1500 RPM up. I'd say more like 2500 up and if you give it a prod when the revs are too low it's pretty dead. Power, I can't criticise it for. It's very very quick. Oddly never feels as quick as it is, to me anyway, and I found 100 appeared very quickly and with zero sense you were really moving. Perhaps the fault of the aforementioned suspension. Power delivery is the real killer for me though. It's hard to describe it without emotive vocabulary but I'd say joyless is about right. There is nothing low down, then it's all very fast for a while but with no crescendo and instead it just seems to plateau. I have zero doubt this is quick and good for lap times, but it is also supremely dull and un-involving. The 6 in my Cayman is gutless at low revs, but keep it above 4500 and rev it out and it's magic. The noise crescendos, the power crescendos and you have great fun keeping it in the sweet zone. New engine coupled to the long gear ratios and there's no point. Leave it in 3rd all day if you like. And don't rev it out, there's no point.
I'm a big Porsche fan and have driven lots of Porsches I like, but when the day comes that I pretty much prefer the diesel lump in the Panamera to the latest offering for the Boxster and Cayman S, it's a worry. I am told, though have yet to drive it, that the 911 turbocharging exercise has been much more successful. I hope that's true. The 991 in the garage at the moment I'd criticise for being a bit dead until high up the rev range (come off a roundabout in 2nd and it feels a tad underwhelming) so maybe it is going to work for me more.
I have no issue with technology changing to meet regs or whatever and I'm sure that in a technical sense the 2.5 turbo is a masterpiece, but give me something that needs revved and sounds good any day. And I don't care at all if it's slower and less powerful.
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