Autocar tomorrow.... 718S Cayman V M2 v F-Type
Discussion
Speed or the sensation of it is another interesting topic. I had a 3.4 gen1 boxster at the time- the carrera felt scorchingly quick in comparison.
Obviously it is faster, at the time I presumed the pdk was adding to the difference as well, which I'm sure it was, but the basic engine characteristic was a huge part of the equation.
To me that basic carrera is the opitomy or vision of what a Porsche is,or was if u take the latest product range.
This in turn brings us back to the 718 conundrum, or indeed most new cars for sale today. Most are a bit bling & dare I say it vulgar, maybe that's to compensate for the drive & attract the masses.
I stress none of this is a personal attack on anyone else's preferences or car choice!!
My point is, choice is rather limited if you fancy a new car, & engine/communication/character/style are your preferences.
Obviously it is faster, at the time I presumed the pdk was adding to the difference as well, which I'm sure it was, but the basic engine characteristic was a huge part of the equation.
To me that basic carrera is the opitomy or vision of what a Porsche is,or was if u take the latest product range.
This in turn brings us back to the 718 conundrum, or indeed most new cars for sale today. Most are a bit bling & dare I say it vulgar, maybe that's to compensate for the drive & attract the masses.
I stress none of this is a personal attack on anyone else's preferences or car choice!!
My point is, choice is rather limited if you fancy a new car, & engine/communication/character/style are your preferences.
v8ksn said:
Some tech info on the 718 here in case anyone is interested....
http://blog.caranddriver.com/tech-dive-in-depth-wi...
An interesting read, and the first article I've read that has somewhat praised the sound of the F4T, tho still places it in the aural shadow of the F6.http://blog.caranddriver.com/tech-dive-in-depth-wi...
Porsche also fits a resonance tube between the two mufflers, which combined with the unequal-length left- and right-hand exhaust plumbing, could be the key to the 718’s distinctly non-crappy exhaust sound. The noise certainly isn’t a flat-six’s song, but it’s a compelling and surprisingly mechanical melody for something many worried would be muffled by a turbo.
Thanks for sharing
Edited by Timbola on Thursday 28th July 19:51
ags11 said:
My point is, choice is rather limited if you fancy a new car, & engine/communication/character/style are your preferences.
It's very hard to find a modern car today that ticks the boxes whatever budget you have. I think as well it's the main reason so many of us are prepared to pay abnormal overs for Porsche's 'GT' products. So many cosmetically appealing looking cars out there today but so few drive as well as they look. M2 vs Macan vid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVr8XkeuKA
Edited by Phooey on Thursday 28th July 19:55
nickfrog said:
n4aat said:
Whenever I stumble across one of these threads there always seems to be the same person at the centre sucking all the oxygen out of it.
Indeed. Cringeworthy even.I haven't driven the 718 yet so cannot comment. Some people prefer it. Some people don't. But I see no reason why they should be aggressively criticised for the logic to get to their conclusions. Even if you do see logical flaws, there are better ways to express opposing views without attracting scorn and criticism.
Just saying....
Prestonese said:
nickfrog said:
n4aat said:
Whenever I stumble across one of these threads there always seems to be the same person at the centre sucking all the oxygen out of it.
Indeed. Cringeworthy even.I haven't driven the 718 yet so cannot comment. Some people prefer it. Some people don't. But I see no reason why they should be aggressively criticised for the logic to get to their conclusions. Even if you do see logical flaws, there are better ways to express opposing views without attracting scorn and criticism.
Just saying....
Phooey said:
It's very hard to find a modern car today that ticks the boxes whatever budget you have. I think as well it's the main reason so many of us are prepared to pay abnormal overs for Porsche's 'GT' products. So many cosmetically appealing looking cars out there today but so few drive as well as they look.
I'm fortunate enough to have a GT4, I know you have or had one.
Among contemporary sports cars it's probably as near the thing as you can buy at a reasonably sane price point. Granted it has it's niggles as well.
Like many I had to fight my case to get hold of a GT car to try and hold on to a more interactive drive. It certainly wasn't for the want of a huge wing on the back.
I begrudge all the clambering you have to do get a level of interaction that was available on basic models a few years ago off the shelf.
M2 vs Macan vid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVr8XkeuKA
I'm fortunate enough to have a GT4, I know you have or had one.
Among contemporary sports cars it's probably as near the thing as you can buy at a reasonably sane price point. Granted it has it's niggles as well.
Like many I had to fight my case to get hold of a GT car to try and hold on to a more interactive drive. It certainly wasn't for the want of a huge wing on the back.
I begrudge all the clambering you have to do get a level of interaction that was available on basic models a few years ago off the shelf.
M2 vs Macan vid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVr8XkeuKA
Edited by Phooey on Thursday 28th July 19:55
Prestonese said:
nickfrog said:
n4aat said:
Whenever I stumble across one of these threads there always seems to be the same person at the centre sucking all the oxygen out of it.
Indeed. Cringeworthy even.I haven't read the review (assuming it's out there now), but despite currently having a 981 Cayman, I find myself seriously interested in the M2, albeit that I won't be changing cars for a couple of years.
I got my Cayman 2.7 from new over a year ago and coming from a 997 C2S I do miss the torque, but in truth, not much else. I get the whole new car thing, but at the same time realise that it doesn't really make financial sense, but I also don't miss the numerous visits with my old car to the local specialist for the 'they all do that sir' repairs that were always it would seem in the region of £300.00 to £400.00 per visit.
Yes the Cayman 2.7 is a bit sluggish under 4k revs and yes you have to hoon it to make decent progress, but that flat six just feels and sounds special at that price point.
When I got the Cayman I had a budget of 45k and knew, with a bit of discount, this would get me a lightly optioned base car, whereas the S with a sensible amount of options would be 10k more AND this is my dilemma moving forward......I don't want a 2.0 4 cylinder engine in my future Porsche. I haven't got the budget for the S model and although in reality a 2.5L turbo probably sounds and feels similar to a 2.0L turbo, in my head at least, the 2.5L is a bit more, well..exotic maybe ...certainly not the norm. The 2.0L is effectively the same as I have in the numerous hot hatches that I tend to run alongside the sports cars that I've had and on the face of it just feels run of the mill.
I've read about engine packaging issues and emissions etc, but personally I think Porsche could have achieved much of what they have done with the current car without resorting to down sizing to 4 cylinders. At the same time the cars will probably fly out of the showrooms like hot cakes and I'm also bright enough to realise that the 918 cars are probably an improvement over the 981 models in some areas and for many it will be a more resolved car than the model it replaces.
I'm not a Porsche Dinosaur, but for me the engine down sizing is a step too far and just makes me feel that the Cayman is in danger of becoming another generic Audi type of offering and it won't be something I'll be considering in the future, although I suspect Porsche won't really care!!
I got my Cayman 2.7 from new over a year ago and coming from a 997 C2S I do miss the torque, but in truth, not much else. I get the whole new car thing, but at the same time realise that it doesn't really make financial sense, but I also don't miss the numerous visits with my old car to the local specialist for the 'they all do that sir' repairs that were always it would seem in the region of £300.00 to £400.00 per visit.
Yes the Cayman 2.7 is a bit sluggish under 4k revs and yes you have to hoon it to make decent progress, but that flat six just feels and sounds special at that price point.
When I got the Cayman I had a budget of 45k and knew, with a bit of discount, this would get me a lightly optioned base car, whereas the S with a sensible amount of options would be 10k more AND this is my dilemma moving forward......I don't want a 2.0 4 cylinder engine in my future Porsche. I haven't got the budget for the S model and although in reality a 2.5L turbo probably sounds and feels similar to a 2.0L turbo, in my head at least, the 2.5L is a bit more, well..exotic maybe ...certainly not the norm. The 2.0L is effectively the same as I have in the numerous hot hatches that I tend to run alongside the sports cars that I've had and on the face of it just feels run of the mill.
I've read about engine packaging issues and emissions etc, but personally I think Porsche could have achieved much of what they have done with the current car without resorting to down sizing to 4 cylinders. At the same time the cars will probably fly out of the showrooms like hot cakes and I'm also bright enough to realise that the 918 cars are probably an improvement over the 981 models in some areas and for many it will be a more resolved car than the model it replaces.
I'm not a Porsche Dinosaur, but for me the engine down sizing is a step too far and just makes me feel that the Cayman is in danger of becoming another generic Audi type of offering and it won't be something I'll be considering in the future, although I suspect Porsche won't really care!!
vernz said:
The 2.0L is effectively the same as I have in the numerous hot hatches that I tend to run alongside the sports cars that I've had and on the face of it just feels run of the mill.
It's a flat-4 that offers a rev range and throttle response that 4-pot hot hatches don't, and that makes a big difference. Go and drive it, you might hate it, but then again you might be pleasantly surprised by what Porsche have achieved considering the constraint they had to work around. Far from ideal but excellent nonetheless. And that chassis...nickfrog said:
...you might be pleasantly surprised by what Porsche have achieved considering the constraint they had to work around.
I think this is the point. The need to differentiate the 718 from the 911 has meant a more serious 'constraint' than just using an older engine.For some this is fine and they don't really care given the type of performance gained. For me it's lost the 'special-ness' of a NA flat six which is really a major issue, and other minor improvements can't compensate for that in any way.
I read the review.. Kinda stupid and unfair to be honest, comparing Cayman to m2 and F-type? Cayman has been around since 2006, and imagine all the earlier knowledge and development of both boxster and 911 coming with it. Even with the new less exotic engine, Cayman's driving would be beyond F-type or BMW.
I did love the comparison between Tesla and boxster spyder a few years ago, I think the only verdict back in the time was the budget and availability of charging stations. 718's should be compared to much more radical cars, imho as they have been around for years now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0mU6DIZWlQ
I did love the comparison between Tesla and boxster spyder a few years ago, I think the only verdict back in the time was the budget and availability of charging stations. 718's should be compared to much more radical cars, imho as they have been around for years now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0mU6DIZWlQ
nickfrog said:
It's a flat-4 that offers a rev range and throttle response that 4-pot hot hatches don't, and that makes a big difference. Go and drive it, you might hate it, but then again you might be pleasantly surprised by what Porsche have achieved considering the constraint they had to work around. Far from ideal but excellent nonetheless. And that chassis...
In all honesty I'd be surprised if it didn't drive great and yes I'm sure Porsche have made a great job of making it feel better than it probably should, but it's still 4 cylinders (flat or otherwise) and having had an RS Megane a few years back I like to to think that I've experienced one of the better of the turbo fours that was also still interesting to drive.As I suggested in my post, I'm sure that many people will be prepared to overlook the engine issue and be happier with the overall package and the much improved levels of torque etc, but for me the flat 6 was/is a fundamental part of the Porsche owning process and as such it's something that I can't look beyond at the moment.
Maybe if and when there is no alternative I might have to re-consider, but I suspect I'll be going back to buying second hand at that point.
Twinfan said:
I think this is the point. The need to differentiate the 718 from the 911 has meant a more serious 'constraint' than just using an older engine.
For some this is fine and they don't really care given the type of performance gained. For me it's lost the 'special-ness' of a NA flat six which is really a major issue, and other minor improvements can't compensate for that in any way.
Fair enough ! For me it has lost the specialness too, great shame. And I really care. But on the other hand, the car seems to have gained an even pointier front end, which, to me at least, is also very important and kind of almost compensates.For some this is fine and they don't really care given the type of performance gained. For me it's lost the 'special-ness' of a NA flat six which is really a major issue, and other minor improvements can't compensate for that in any way.
The other thing is I do not see the elitist correlation between driving enthusiasm and presence of turbo / number of cylinders.
If anything, the turbo for me might even help remove a certain inertia of the chassis experienced in previous generations. It might make the way it handles a little more playful but I guess track time will be the real test for that. I can't wait !!!
nickfrog said:
The other thing is I do not see the elitist correlation between driving enthusiasm and presence of turbo / number of cylinders.
There's nothing 'elitist' from me about a turbo four cylinder engine. It's the ubiquity of turbo four pots and the gruff nature of a boxer four that makes them un-special in my eyes, and not suited to a car like the Cayman or Boxster from a brand like Porsche.Twinfan said:
I think this is the point. The need to differentiate the 718 from the 911 has meant a more serious 'constraint' than just using an older engine.
For some this is fine and they don't really care given the type of performance gained. For me it's lost the 'special-ness' of a NA flat six which is really a major issue, and other minor improvements can't compensate for that in any way.
This is certainly a major factor. Regardless of Porsche quoting packaging/emission problems with a turbo six in the 718, we all know that a major factor is placing the respective cars and models 'correctly' within the price list. With the down sizing of the 911 engine, Porsche effectively had nowhere to go really, apart from lopping off 2 cylinders.For some this is fine and they don't really care given the type of performance gained. For me it's lost the 'special-ness' of a NA flat six which is really a major issue, and other minor improvements can't compensate for that in any way.
It's a shame, but a (smaller...say 2.5L) turbo six in a Cayman would have probably placed the car too close to the base 911 for the marketing guys to be happy.
Twinfan said:
There's nothing 'elitist' from me about a turbo four cylinder engine. It's the ubiquity of turbo four pots and the gruff nature of a boxer four that makes them un-special in my eyes, and not suited to a car like the Cayman or Boxster from a brand like Porsche.
There aren't not many T flat-4s revving to 7,500rpm so cleanly though ? I wouldn't call it gruff although obviously nowhere near as creamy as the 6. Basically, we've been spoilt so far ! The new engine will not distract me for how fantastically good the car is overall at such a low price point.
I have no issues with anyone simply giving up on the car because of the new engine. It will be Porsche's loss. And someone's else gain if the sales are so poor that they have to discount it more!
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